Project Sea Sprite

[Cougar_15]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Thanks for all the great advice and support, as always! I would not have even known where to begin with out it! I'm anxious to get back to working on it, sitting on the shore watching everyone out on the water is tough...

One thing on the side storage if you leave them in [ i did on mine ] when you put the deck back in you will have to cut it , I did on mine , had to cut it in 4 peices instead of 2

jcsercsa, did you glass the deck to the inside edge of the rail or did you take the glass all the way over it?

On another topic, I was really intrigued with the idea of using 4# foam (instead of stringers) to add strength to the hull, that was talked about in Driven1's tread (MFG Gypsy 15 Tri-Hull Restore). As far as I can tell so far the stringer in the Sprite seems pretty solid, what do you guys think of the idea of leaving the stringer as is and filling the space on either side of the stringer with 4# foam?

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

jcsercsa, did you glass the deck to the inside edge of the rail or did you take the glass all the way over it?


took it to the side of the hull . I didnt want any water getting to the foam , [ well all i could prevent from getting to the foam ] it was ruff i was still thinking of cutting it out and re glassing it in when I was glassing the floor !! I really would recommend cutting them out !!! I would when I so it again !!! [ on another boat ] lol John

 

[Driven1]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Cougar,

Everyone here has just been dying to se a foam job done. I decided against mine (for now anyway) because it would have cost a bit more than I had (have) available. I still may do it at a later date.

The reasoning behind the foaming is to replace all of the below deck structure. It's particularly cost and time saving in boats that have multiple stringers and bulkheads that are all rotted out.

In your case (and mine) it's really not cost effective. If you want the extra piece of mind knowing that somebody could rip it up with a machine gun and it still wouldn't sink, go for it. If you're looking to save some time and money, I don't believe it's worth it in your case. You're only dealing with one stringer.

FreeGypsy's boat is a much better candidate for a foam job. You can see what he's up against in my MFG Thread on page 2. Scroll down to his post dated July 21st, 2008, 03:43 PM. It's amazing what a lousy foot can do to the design of a hull!

When I made the decision to not do the foam job right now, I looked at it this way. The boat lasted probably 15 to 20 years the way it was manufactured (as poorly as I feel it was). Because I'll be glassing and sealing everything, it should last at least double that, foam or no foam.

If ya wanna go with the foam for extra strength and piece of mind, have at it. If you want to save some time and money, don't.

You could if you wanted, put some 2lb. Foam down there just for floatation purposes. It's cheaper but would still "float your boat" if it got swamped or started taking on a lot of water for some reason. You don't have to fill the entire space with it either. Just enough to provide floatation is all that's needed.

Hope that helps in your decision. We're all rootin' for ya. The root sounds like this...

Cougar, Cougar, he's our man. If he can't foam it, No one can!

Foam, Foam, Foam, Foam. Yaaaaaay!!!!

Just kiddin' dude. Good Luck!

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Cougar,

Everyone here has just been dying to se a foam job done. I decided against mine (for now anyway) because it would have cost a bit more than I had (have) available. I still may do it at a later date.

The reasoning behind the foaming is to replace all of the below deck structure. It's particularly cost and time saving in boats that have multiple stringers and bulkheads that are all rotted out.

In your case (and mine) it's really not cost effective. If you want the extra piece of mind knowing that somebody could rip it up with a machine gun and it still wouldn't sink, go for it. If you're looking to save some time and money, I don't believe it's worth it in your case. You're only dealing with one stringer.

FreeGypsy's boat is a much better candidate for a foam job. You can see what he's up against in my MFG Thread on page 2. Scroll down to his post dated July 21st, 2008, 03:43 PM. It's amazing what a lousy foot can do to the design of a hull!

When I made the decision to not do the foam job right now, I looked at it this way. The boat lasted probably 15 to 20 years the way it was manufactured (as poorly as I feel it was). Because I'll be glassing and sealing everything, it should last at least double that, foam or no foam.

If ya wanna go with the foam for extra strength and piece of mind, have at it. If you want to save some time and money, don't.

You could if you wanted, put some 2lb. Foam down there just for floatation purposes. It's cheaper but would still "float your boat" if it got swamped or started taking on a lot of water for some reason. You don't have to fill the entire space with it either. Just enough to provide floatation is all that's needed.

Hope that helps in your decision. We're all rootin' for ya. The root sounds like this...

Cougar, Cougar, he's our man. If he can't foam it, No one can!

Foam, Foam, Foam, Foam. Yaaaaaay!!!!

Just kiddin' dude. Good Luck!

Couger Cougar Cougar, He"s the man !!! sorry to rain on this a little bite , but by law if she [the baot] is under 20 feet she has to have foam !! I dont know how they would check ??? John

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

John, I think that law only applies to the OEM.

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

John, I think that law only applies to the OEM.

on one of the other threads I forget who said they got check it seee if they had foam !!! I dont rember what state it was ?? maybe someone else can chim in here ??? John

 

[Driven1]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

John, you're right of course. I was under the impression from the "Backyard Boatbuilder's" link in the Coast Guard Rules sticky at the top of the forum that flotation was not a requirement for Outboards...

BASIC FLOTATION. Builders of inboards and inboard-outdrives are required to
comply with the Basic Flotation portion of the Coast Guard Flotation Standard.

It doesn't say a thing about Outboards.

My feeling is that this document is outdated and has probably been superceded by USCG changes to the rules in 2003. It should probably be removed from the sticky.

Currently USCG states from their current FAQ...

What regulations are available if I want to build or modify my own boat?

We refer to people who build a boat for their own use as "Backyard Boat Builders". They are expected to comply with the same safety standards and administrative regulations as regular boat manufacturers. Failure to do so could affect their insurance coverage and make them vulnerable in a liability suit.

Further...

To be in compliance, any outboard with a rated HP of 2 horses or more must use a Level Flotation system...

Listed in Subpart G under Flotation. http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/flotation/183-201.htm

Monohull boats under 20 feet in length and rated for more than two horsepower must comply with the more sophisticated flotation system called Level Flotation. The Level Flotation system requires that the swamped boat, loaded with certain weights representing weight capacity, part of persons capacity and some equipment, must float in an approximately level position and not heel past a certain angle, even when part of the passengers? weight is on one side of the passenger carrying area.

This means that even if your boat had a basic flotation system installed at the time of manufacture, it must be upgraded to a Level Flotation System during a restore. You can't just replace the old basic system.

So there's the definitive answer. Dern it. Gotta fix the foam under my starboard gunwale now. Thanks John.

 

[109jb]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Couger Cougar Cougar, He"s the man !!! sorry to rain on this a little bite , but by law if she [the baot] is under 20 feet she has to have foam !! I dont know how they would check ??? John

I don't think he was talking about not using foam at all, but rather about doing away with the stringers and using foam for the only floor support. There was another thread on doing this in tri-hulls.

Also, "restoring" a boat does not mean it needs to comply with new regulations regarding level flotation. A boat manufactured in say 1965 is still a 1965 boat whether it is restored or not and would have to comply with the regulations that were in effect at that time. The USCG FAQ quoted in the later post referred to boats that are built or "modified". Restoring to near original is not modifying in my opinion. Does that mean if I put a fising deck on the front of a old bowrider that I now have to change the floation. After all I've "modified" it. I think not. I think the USCG FAQ answer was oriented toward building a boat which would then have to comply with the regulations in effect at the time that it is built. That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea if it can be done reasonably easy, but saying it is required for a restore is ridiculous. That's like saying that the 1970 Ford Mustang I'm restoring has to have air bags installed and meet current vehicle crashworthiness requirements.

 

[brian3127]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

your boat is similiar to mine this is what i did with my boat. im going to redo my transom next year. but i stripped the boat down to the hull. new floor seats and all.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=243841

 

[Driven1]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Ya know what? I'm gonna call 'em tomorrow and get a fer shure answer. Can't seem to find one anywhere. There's absolutely nothing on the USCG web site relating to restorations so I assumed that the rules laid down in the Boat Builder's section applied.

I will have a rock solid answer tomorrow!

 

[Cougar_15]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

I'm planning on replacing the foam I've removed, my thinking was since I am going to replace it anyway, why not use 4# foam for the added strength. My idea was to add the foam to the section on each side of the stringer (leaving the stringer in place) and build the foam up to be level with the top of the stringer. In the pic below, the red line is the area I was thinking of for foam (all the way up to the bow):​

Does this make any sence or would it be better to stick with the original design and just replace the 2# foam for flotation...?​

Driven1, I'm very interested to hear what you find out about the legal requirements.​

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

John, you're right of course. I was under the impression from the "Backyard Boatbuilder's" link in the Coast Guard Rules sticky at the top of the forum that flotation was not a requirement for Outboards...



It doesn't say a thing about Outboards.

My feeling is that this document is outdated and has probably been superceded by USCG changes to the rules in 2003. It should probably be removed from the sticky.

Currently USCG states from their current FAQ...



Further...

To be in compliance, any outboard with a rated HP of 2 horses or more must use a Level Flotation system...

Listed in Subpart G under Flotation. http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/flotation/183-201.htm



This means that even if your boat had a basic flotation system installed at the time of manufacture, it must be upgraded to a Level Flotation System during a restore. You can't just replace the old basic system.

So there's the definitive answer. Dern it. Gotta fix the foam under my starboard gunwale now. Thanks John.

Sorry , But I thought so !!I was right for once !!! hahah lol sorry US Composties has great prices on foam !!! hahahah

On my threat me and oops had a debate going [ he at one time was going to use ping pong balls ] hahahah John

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Ok i ansewed before the rest !! I should have ansked the DNR officer out there today!! Ok keep us posted , I still think it is for what i read on the coast guard site !! give them a call and let us know for sure !!! John

 

[redfury]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

I think foam is really only required if you want to get your boat back if it sinks.

 

[Cougar_15]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

All right guys, I've got another question (I'm full of them I know ). The book I just read about boat restoration said that it's not a good idea to remove the transom and stringers and seperate the top section all at the same time (due to the possibility of the hull losing it's shape), yet a lot of the projects I've been reading through have had all 3 removed at the same time and don't seem to have had any ill effects.​

So I'm trying to decide if I should finish the new deck (except for a small section in front of the transom) before I remove the transom or if I can work on both at the same time? I would like to do all of the grinding and prep work (for both the transom and deck) before I start glassing if possible but it sounds safer to finish the deck before removing the transom...​

 

[bailey]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Cougar 15 I see where you are leery about removing the deck on the boat,(hidden rivets etc. etc.) May I suggest that you remove just enough of the deck including the "motor well" (should be all 1 piece) probably no more than 4ft.,then you'll have enough room to replace the transom, when done replace the deck, patch your cut with glass and your done.
Hope this might help.

Bailey

 

[Driven1]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Ok, ladies and gentleman. Just got off the phone with a very nice gentleman from the USCG Safety Division by the name of Po. I told him that I was restoring a boat for my own personal use with no intent of resale and was confused about flotation requirements relating to restorations.

In a nutshell, here are NO Federal or USCG requirements whatsoever relating to restoration of boats for personal use by an individual. You can do anything you want, or don't want, to do. Flotation or no flotation. No regs at all relating to restoration by an individual.

He went on to say that they encourage the use of the current flotation standards for personal safety but they are y no means mandatory.

He also touched on it from an accident standpoint. If you were to be in a accident on the water with another boat, the other party's lawyer may bring up the point that your boat doesn't meet current USCG Safety Standards. Your argument is, it doesn't have to.

He even went on to suggest alternative flotation methods after I explained what soaked foam does to an old boat.

He also stated that there may be one little caveat. There is a possibility that some states may have their own set of requirements above and beyond those of Federal Rules and the USCG. You would need to check with your individual state for those.

It was a nice little chat. I don't expect the Feds at my door tomorrow. I also suggested to him that he make a suggestion to make that information available on the USCG Website. He said he would.

There, that's the end of it!

190 JB was right. John and I were both wrong from a Federal and USCG standpoint.

I'll also post this in the other thread that was started on the subject so it has a good place to live.

I will now sit quietly with my head hung low and my tail between my legs for a while. Let me know when it's ok to go out and play again.

 

[Driven1]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

it's not a good idea to remove the transom and stringers and seperate the top section all at the same time (due to the possibility of the hull losing it's shape

They're probably right in a way. My hull definately distorted a bit. Especially when I got the floor cut out. It bowed out at the sides a little and developed a slight twist from front to back.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to do a good stringer/transom replacement and job of prepping without having the floor out and the cap popped off isn't it?

If you're certain your center stringer is good, you could get away with doing what baily described. The area that's going to cause problems (if you don't want to pop the cap) is the transom. Your splash well will be in the way. You'd need to come up with a way around it. My boat is very similar to yours. I ended up (although in hindsight there was a better way) cutting the splashwell off to be reglassed on later.

I'll be straightening my hull out and running a couple of 2x4's from side to side at the top edge of the hull to hold things together before I put the floor in. If I put the floor in now as the boat sits, I would "Lock in" that twist and center bow with the new floor.

Hint: Pre-Measuring is a wonderful thing if it's possible.

 

[bailey]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

Why not replace the transom first,cutting away some of the stringers at the same time (just enough,to let you replace the transom) then when the transom in finished to your liking start replacing your stringers. I don't think that there is a "hard and fast rule" that says you must replace a transom and the stringers at the same time.You understand what I'm saying.
Best of luck, please figure everything out before attempting you repair.There's an old saying "MAKE A PLAN THEN WORK TO YOUR PLAN"
Bailey

 

[Cougar_15]

Re: Project Sea Sprite

I've decided that I'm going to remove the upper deck. If I don't I won't be able to get to the part of the deck (floor) that I know is rotten and if the stringer does need to be replaced I would not be able to get to the forward end....

Bailey, I know what you mean about having a plan. My problem is I tend to plan too much and end up making a bigger deal of out things than they really need to be.

Well, I didn't get a lot done this weekend but I did make a little progress, I finished the stand for the motor:

I was also able to borrow a hoist. So now I have to figure out how to disconnect the motor and remote control so I can get it moved...