Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration SPLASHED!

kpiazzisi

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

I have talked with two seperate business in Florida that restore boats for a living on the topic of floatation foam. Both of them as well as other post on here consistently agree on how water get's below the sole into suposedly sealed compartments. The two common causes are screws/mounting holes, and improperly treated plywood (not treated with a water proof resin). If the sole of your new deck is treated with epoxy resin and you are very carefull to seal any mounting holes in the deck with 3M 5200, it will be a long time if ever before any water makes it's way below the sole.

Most older american boats simply have polyester resin coated plywood, and that simply won't hold up over time. The wood will crack and the resin will crack with it. American boats also tend to mount captains chairs, bench seats, etc. with screws that create a perfect channel for water to travel into the so called air tight compartment. To make matter worse they use carpet on the sole which trapes water and accelerates the whole process.


My sole is completely epoxied/glued into place (no screws). It's also sealed on the outer edges and "tabbed" into place with epoxy. I am not going to have any screw or mounting points that penatrate the sole, so I don't see how water could ever find it's way below the sole and into the seperate sealed compartments.

The best deal I have found on Floation foam is 5 Gallon part "A" and 5 Gallons part "B" (2 LB density) from Compositesone for approx $220.00. That's enough for 40 Cu ft. If you get the 4 Lb denisty then it would be enough for 20 Cu ft. 3M 5200 is at Home depot for approx $11.00 per tube (standard caucking gun size).
 
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AMD Rules

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

After reading these forums for several years, below are some comments which I believe to be true based on observations, but not necessarily on my own personal hands-on experience:

1. All sealed cavities beneath the hull eventually get water in them.

2. Pool noodles, if left in contact with water will eventually absorb water.

3. Closed cell foam, when the skin is disturbed, will eventually absorb water.

4. Foam adds both flotation, sound deadening, and structural strength (depending on foam density used).

5. Adding the ability to drain trapped water (the tough challenge) will not completely prevent foam from absorbing water but -may- help reduce the amount or rate of water absorbed over time. Path of least resistance is out the drain, not into the cellular structure of the foam. Also adds in air circulation to remove dampness following water drainage.

6. Pouring foam in place with some form of plastic barrier, then removing the foam and sealing the foam exterior completely (sealed bagging each foam block shape perhaps?) and adding drainage cavities around the foam is probably the best route to avoid water absorption, but comes at the cost of losing structural stiffness that the foam may have provided if left undisturbed.

7. Cardboard tubes, biodegradable materials, rope, long drills, rods, or cabling etc will all allow for a drainage channels to be created after the foam pour but the foam would not have 'skinned over' when in contact with those materials as it would have adhered to it instead. The surface left behind after the materials are removed or degraded would essentially be behaving as open cell foam subject to water ingestion.


I would prefer no foam, if structural stiffness and sound are not a priority.

If flotation foam is a necessity (as the laws suggest it is) then drainage channels seem to be the course of action that would extend the life of the foam the longest. Eventually most any foam will absorb water if left to sit in stagnant water for prolonged periods.

One thing for certain Jay.... no matter what method of foaming, or not foaming, draining , or not draining... we're all cheering for you and looking forward to the end result. Given your close attention to detail, the level of consideration to each step, I'm confident whatever method you choose is the correct method for you, and far better than any factory would have done it when it was built.

Just my 3 cents.
 

kpiazzisi

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

I agree with you almost 100% percent, but we haven't seen water soaked foam from someone who has done it correctly and taken the proper steps. I have a hard time believing that on my boat water is going to make it's way through 48 oz of epoxy biax laminate into the cell below it. I think it's very unlikely.
 

NickAndJena

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 1, 2009
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Very well put AMD, and now we all wait in suspense...
 

wingmastr23

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Oct 26, 2009
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Here is my "idea".

What if you were to drill holes along a piece of 1/2 inch solid PVC (Maybe even 1 inch). Once you have the holes drilled - wrap pieces of newspaper around the pipe where all the holes are located. The paper should be strong enough to hold the foam - but I am sure it will weaken the paper when you pour the foam. Lay the PVC along the stringer where you did your fillet and glue/seal it around the stringer/hull. If water does eventually get in, it will easily melt that newspaper quickly, and drop into the PVC pipe - and ultimately drain to your bilge.
 

jayboy73

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Mar 25, 2008
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

I tried the electricial drill this afternoon on my old foam where it was solid and dry. Worked like a charm. The drill sjaft and drill bit is about 53 1/2" long. The drill bit is 3/4" diameter. The shaft is very flexible so can be guided into tight areas. I ran it up the intersection between the stringer and the hull. Ran the drill very slow and could not feel any drag like it was catching the fiberglass. The hole was perfectly round and the chips came out with bit when I pulled it out. Of course there would be some risk but taking care would work. In the short sections you could always cut part of the drill stem and also use a right angle drill. Harbor Freight has a fairly cheap one that would reduce the overall length. I also have some short, ~12" drill extenders that would work the same way except they are very stiff. Has a set screw to hold the drill of choice. At least you could reduce the cardboard, noodles, etc. to where it is necessary where the hull is just too curved for the drill to be safe.
 

Lou C

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

I agree with the idea that while foam does add to the problem, by trapping moisture, the basic issue is that polyester resin is not that water proof, and if epoxy was used in the layup of stringers, and bulkheads, I bet there would be a lot less rot, of course it costs more but then you have a boat that can last 20+ years as long as you seal up deck penetrations. And carpet, it has NO PLACE on any open boat.....
 

boaterinsd

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

And carpet, it has NO PLACE on any open boat.....


so what do you have on your deck for a floor covering?
 

Lou C

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Nothing, it's done in non skid gelcoat, like a fishing boat. The only way an open boat should be done. Carpet does nothing but hold moisture.
Think about it, if you built a deck on the back of your house, even with an awning over it, would you cover it with carpet? Of course not, the carpet would trap moisture under it and rot it out 3x as fast.
Look at any boat made for salt water fishing, they all have non skid gelcoat for the entire deck surface and most do not have snap in carpet either.
The only good thing about carpet that I can see is that it covers up sloppy glass work!
 

wingmastr23

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

The only good thing about carpet that I can see is that it covers up sloppy glass work!

That's why mine has it!!.....:D

And when I redid my floor this winter - I recarpeted it - why? Because it was my first "glass job" and I suck at it! I figure the first floor lasted 15yrs.....This one ought to atleast last another 10.....good enough for me.
 

kpiazzisi

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

CREATING A WAY FOR WATER TO GET OUT = CREATING A WAY FOR WATER TO GET IN.

I agree with Lou C, he is right on the money. Although epoxy is way more expensive, you should'nt have to use as much. With epoxy the CSM (the matt) layers are not required. The CSM doesn't add much strength anyway, but does add weight and resin. By eliminating the CSM (not necessary with epoxy) weight, resin and therefore $ is saved. So eventhough it is more expensive a larger laminate with more strength can be made with less resin. Not to mention the fact that Polyester has huge health implications where epoxy is non VOC. Over all you will spend a little more going epoxy route but it's worth it.

Sorry to be a pest, and I really think Frisco Boater is doing a nice job. That is a really nice boat. I agree with Lou C that he should seal it with epoxy, not worry about the channels and call it a day. If you are going to put in a drain system consider capping it at the bildge, that way you can controll where the water goes. Maybe every six months or so you pull off the PVC cap and hopefully nothing comes out. Then you know the compartments are still water free. If you don't cap the drainage system, water fill flow both directions, and after a day of boating a little water will drain out and you will have more sleepless nights OCD ing about whether or not water is getting into the compartments.

just my 2 cents
 

GracieBell1

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

I am probably commenting too late, but hear goes. Please don't take offence Woodonglass as you are very respected by me. First, Closed Cell foam does allow water to absorb. The cells are closed but will still absorb water over time if the water is not routed out. Also, closed cell foam is very hard to get water out of. Once the water is absorbed it has no way out. So tipping a boat hoping gravity will pull it out usualy will not work. It has to be evaporated or sucked out. You can call or email any foam dist, West Marine or aerofoam they will all tell you that water will get absorbed over time. So, I used a 1/2 piece of schedule 40 PVC. Foam does not stick to it. I coated it with crisco, layed a 16' piece at the base of my stringers on each side and when I poured the foam I left the front 1' section open with no foam. Then pulled the pipe out. 1/2" pvc is very flexable and it slipped right out. I also marked where the other end of the PVC was at the back of the boat about 2" from my transom and drilled the drain, giving me a channel 16' up from my transom. The boat is 21'. Hope this helps. You can also leave the pipe if you drill a zillion holes in it like a french drain. I prefer the channel left after the pipe is removed.
 

Decker83

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

I agree with you GracieBell1. I was told that the waterlogged foam in my boat was not (closed cell). After doing some research, I think it is. This foam is 28 years old and it did absorb water and is holding it. I am going to do like you and use a 2" pvc cut in half. Grease it and pull it out.
I also agree with AMD Rules, but I think #7 may not be completely correct. If the foam will seal with the plastic liner it should also seal against the pvc with say wd40 or crisco.
Thanks for your opion.
 

Kevin Hanes

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Jay, hope all is well with your mother and father. I have been reading your thread and seems that there is a lot of good ideas out there about your foaming. So I thought I would let my idea out and see what is said about it. I am going to cut my decking to fit, put them in place, drill access holes to pour the foam and let the foam do its thing. I do not plan on putting any drains on the under side of the foam, the reason being is I am thinking its going to be very hard for water to get into the areas unless there is a hull breach. If that happens I have bigger problems (lol). The reason why I say that is because I am doing away with the ski locker in the floor and will be able to do the support system for the floor to support the edges of the plywood, then cover the the floor with a second coat of resin and roving, and on top of that I am going with Herculiner brand truck bed coating. Per the Herculiner website it is a suitable use for the product! So with that said I do not for see any way for water to get under the floor??? I may be wrong, but I am going to give it a shot. Its a beautiful day here in central Ohio, so I am going to get started.
 

Lou C

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

tank mounting.jpgYou know you might want to re-think that, if the foam does not get out fast enough, it can pop your deck loose quite fast, it expands fast all of a sudden. I know the boat makers do it that way, but I think it's easier, having done it myself, to pour your foam, let it expand, then you can make sure all the cavities are filled. Now of course it will over-expand, but it's very easy to just cut off the extra level with the stringers with a hand saw. Then you can put you new deck down and not have to drill any holes in it, if you want you can use 3M-4200 or 5200 and use a few stainless screws (sealing the holes of course) to hold it down nice and level while the adhesive cures. Thats how I did mine.....

Make sure you do it on a nice warm day, you need about 70* at least for it to expand properly and also wear a tyvec suit, it gets on everything....
 

Woodonglass

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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

GB,

No Offense taken. You are correct! But...It will only absorb water IF the outer shell of the foam is damaged. That is why it is important that Care is taken when penetrating the deck after the foam has been installed. The chemical reaction of the foam creates a somewhat hardened outershell which is 100% waterproof and will not absorb water. HOWEVER over time if this outershell becomes worn or breeched in any way THEN water can be absorbed and, as you say, it will NOT drain or dry out. Now the Pink or Blue Slab foam sold at Lowes or HD IS 100% water proof and Will NEVER absorb water NO MATTER WHAT!!! Puncture it, cut it don't care it will NEVER absorb water. That's why I recommend it now over the pour in stuff.
 

Tahoe202

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Jul 17, 2010
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

What if one were to make channels out of the blue/pink lowes/HD foam? PB them together into channels up to a deck access hole then connect those channels to pieces that are cut out at an angle and glued from the hull to the stringer leaving an airspace. Then place deck and pour your foam. It will fill all the voids around the channels and allow airflow all the while letting air travel through the channel and water out into the bilge. Whatever Jay decides to do with this foam there is no doubt it will be done right and well. I can't wait to see him drop that big block back in there.
 

seamorewaterVIP

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Jan 6, 2010
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

hope all is well with you mom Jay!
 
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Friscoboater

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Jul 3, 2009
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Man what a week. I have not had any time really to look at the board much at all due to work. My Mom is actually stable right now (thanks for asking), and we are praying that her liver will start to improve. The good thing is that she is alert and talking for the first time in more than a week. It has been a roller coaster for almost over six months for her (and the family), and I can tell it has taken its toll. She has her good days and bad days, and yesterday was a good day. So I took the whole family down there and we did mothers day early. I wanted for her to see the kids now that she is alert, and I know the rest of the family will want to see her on Sunday. It was a good visit.


Sooooooooo... that brings me to the boat. I put in eleven long hot hours in on her today and I have half the stringers completely glassed in. I went with 2 layers of alternating 1708 on all exposed wood, and will add another layer in the engine bay. Considering that Sea Ray had no glass on the stringers at all, with the exception of the engine box, I would say I am good. I hope to have the rest of the glassing done tomorrow. This video is uploading right now and should be viewable in a while. I will post more pictures and video tomorrow night.

Also thanks for all the good ideas on the foam stuff. I might be modifying my design a little and incorporate some on the ideas. The goal is to let water (if it should get in there) reach the stringer and the hull meeting place. That is where I found all my water, and the foam was not really soaked. If I can protect that channel the water can make it to the limber holes. I will be capping them for sure.

Also I am thinking I will make a hatch for the fuel tank. I think I have a great plan for securing it without allowing water where it shouldn't. As with everything, this could change.
 

69rrvert

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May 9, 2010
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Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Re: Here I go again!! 1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Jay,

I am glad to hear that your mom is doing better. The power of prayer is amazing. My 12 year old daughter is a heart patient and after 3 heart surgeries and a zillion other test, I have seen it work first hand. Looking forward to the video updates. Thanks, Steven
 
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