Help an Aussie to understand......

Peter J Fraser · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

AChris and all, This is getting to be more than one can read at work!!!! Interesting topic and I dont have any issues with either side of the fence. I have lived, worked and visited many countries around the world where the Police carry a sidearm and in NZ our police are not carrying visibly. Most of the Detectives here are armed with a Glock but I have no issues with that either. Everyone has their own viewpoint and I am not looking to change that either. Regards to all Peter

KeltonKrew · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

achris

Poster by 1730V quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Firearms are not dangerous. People are dangerous -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People are more dangerous with a firearm.

People are more dangerous driving a car than walking. People are more dangerous with a golf club rather than sweating to the oldies with Richard Simmons...well, maybe stretching this one

I have guns....and plenty of them. Do I use them...yes regularly. Our rights are to protect us from our GOVERNMENT. Our forefathers were actaully quite bright and saw a potential threat to our rights form an oppresive govt! We have gun laws...just they don't want to enforce what is there....The LEFT would rather make new laws outlawing gun ownership so their socialist agenda can be brought in and we have no way to defend ourselves from our OWN govt! Do I hunt...YES....do I target practice...YES....am I accurate....HELL YES.....am I a criminal...NO and one better hope he doesn't come visit in the middle of the night! Those of y'all who have been stripped of the right to protect yourself...I feel really bad for y'all! I don't like these outsiders trying to mess with my rights given to me because you don't have them.

achris · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

posted by Keltonkrew

Our rights are to protect us from our GOVERNMENT.

So, if you get a government you don't like you're going to pickup your rifle, go to the national capital and kill them all are you? Chris.......

KeltonKrew · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

not at all, but it helps keep the gov't in check. read the federalist papers that were linked above

achris · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

not at all, but it helps keep the gov't in check.

So why have guns you don't intend to use? A threat isn't a threat if you don't intend to carry through... How does this keep the govt in check? I looked at the link for the papers, had a quick read to try to find the relevant section, no success. It would take weeks to wade through that lot... Is there an abridged version anywhere? Something that cuts out all the babble and gets the the core and essence of the subject. Chris............

KeltonKrew · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I never said I didn't intend to use them. you mentioned going to the capitol and start killing....that's not the right thing to do either. however, I will protect my family and my rights!

Skinnywater · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I guess it comes down to this I live in a gunless society and find it hard to understand why anyone would want to live with the dangers associated with a gunned up society, and you live in a gunned up society and find it difficult to understand why anyone would want to live with the danger of not having a gun. Q.E.D. We agree to disagree.

I understand your desire to duck and cover. But it's important to finish what you started. You wanted to understand, then by cracky a least attempt to make an effort to understand. It isn't all summed up by what you said and it's inaccurate. It isn't about gun ownership at all. It's about laws, rights, respect, choice, custom, responsibility and freedom. "Agreeing to disagree" is a copout in this case. My last post spoke of respect given to you and a desire for respect back. Instead of "agreeing to disagree", lets be honest and admit that as soon as it took an honest effort and goodwill on your part to learn or understand you chose to fold. After all, this is about me having a lawful right and responsibility in a matter that has zero effect to you and yours. Very petty. I'm done with it Chris, no hard feelings. I hope you've learned your lesson in Trolling101 at least.

achris · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Skinnywater,

It isn't about gun ownership at all. It's about laws, rights, respect, choice, custom, responsibility and freedom.

What about the right, choice, freedom, respect of a citzen to walk the streets without fear of some crazy sticking a gun in they face and taking whatever they want. Remove the ease of aquisition (of a firearm) and you remove the problem. Someone is less likely to commit a violent crime if the materials to do so are harder to obtain. FACT! Agreeing to disagree is not my cop-out. It's just that, agreeing to see the same subject from different viewpoints. Keltonkrew, So what's all the stuff about protecting against a (bad) government if you actually have no intention of doing any such thing? Chris.............

snapperbait · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Guns, no guns, I don't care.. Just remember this one thing fellers, the government has the BIG guns.... So that business about Joe Blows collection of pea shooters keeping the government "in check" really don't hold any weight.. Now, back to my bazooka...

No bazooka for me huh? Ok, twin .50 caliber machine guns on the bow of my boat? How about that?

achris · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

No bazooka for me huh? Ok, twin .50 caliber machine guns on the bow of my boat? How about that?

As long as you don't what to use them, I guess it's ok.......

Ok, Skinnywater, Keltonkrew, et al. Have a gun to 'protect' yourself. No issue there. But why collect so many? You can only fire one at a time. Chris............

Dunaruna · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I can't believe I'm doing this - Chris, its not about owning guns, its about the right to own guns. Its about the right to lawfully do anything that pops your cork. I read the Federalist intro and a couple of the first pages (I'll get to all of it), We didn't have various European countries upsetting the trade routes, we didn't have infighting between states. And most important, no Nth/Sth hostility. What we did have was a unified nation wanting independence, and we got it with a brush of the pen. Done deal, see ya later King whats your name. There simple was no trigger to implant the self-preservation chip in our brains. The people who drafted our first constitution had no logical reason to follow (or at least look) at the U.S. for clues, from their perspective, we were in the middle of the Sth Pacific totally isolated in a little slice of heaven. In all honesty I don't think an Australian is capable of a troll, we are just to easy goin'. So beers all round - Chris' shout

Aldo

Boomyal · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by Dunaruna: So beers all round - Chris' shout Aldo

I'll drink to that!

Oh wait, I have to park my piece.

Skinnywater · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

What about the right, choice, freedom, respect of a citzen to walk the streets without fear of some crazy sticking a gun in they face and taking whatever they want. Remove the ease of aquisition (of a firearm) and you remove the problem. Someone is less likely to commit a violent crime if the materials to do so are harder to obtain. FACT!

Those are fair questions Chris and I appreciate you asking them. If it were fact there wouldn't be any violent crime in China then. You and I both have continue to have the ability to walk the streets without fear. Fear is a choice and emotion Chris. Many are afraid of the dark, or lightning, or snakes. Your (hypothetical)fear of snakes doesn't allow you to come into my pasture and kill them. The answer isn't to make your fear, my problem. And again, don't make the terrible mistake of so many liberals by mixing emotion with law. Equating emotion with fact or rights is simply wrong. Guns don't make a criminal Chris. Drugs and alcohol are more likely to cause a violent crime. Three thousand of my fellow citizens were killed a few years back with box cutters. A trained gun in the cockpit might have changed this fact. More people are killed by drivers falling asleep at the wheel then violent crime in this country. I'd bet many of those killers don't own guns. You raised a point a while back posing the question. If our founders hadn't written a second amendment we might become just like England, NZ and Autralia. It's possible that we'd all be much worse off. The individuallity that The Constitution promotes, planted desires to exceed our nieghbors. To individually press ahead, if we desire. The fruit of individuallity is invention, design and production and a score of additional positives. These fruits ripened here for all the world to use and enjoy. Rather then pick at what seems to you a minor point of understanding, look at the whole picture. Understand that it isn't my intention to change your mind. Or to agree to disagree, or to win or lose. I'm really looking for your understanding and respect on this issue. Me exercising my rights as an American, or this exchange with you, shouldn't do anything to expect less. From Dunaruna;

Chris, its not about owning guns, its about the right to own guns. Its about the right to lawfully do anything that pops your cork.

A sincere thanks for that.

roscoe · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

So why are robberies and kidknappings going up in Australia?? And why are more people becoming victims?? Seems to me, that fewer crimes would be committed if the thugs had to fear that you had a gun in your cupboard. The disarmed citizens are now very easy targets. You can blame it on the immigrants if you want. But they would think twice if they thought you had a Ruger in your hand. _____________________________ The answer to stray bullets.....Glasser safety slugs. They turn almost any gun into a shotgun.

achris · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

quote:

Chris, its not about owning guns, its about the right to own guns. Its about the right to lawfully do anything that pops your cork. 

Click to expand...

A sincere thanks for that.

What about the rights of the poor innocent who cops a slug in the arse because some maniac is exercising his 'rights'?

Dunaruna · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Roscoe, I don't have the answer to that, I don't know. I do know that we face the same social problems as you guys, drugs, unemployment, gangs etc. I live in a city of nearly 4 million. I have a shotgun in the safe, I have never felt the need to lock my doors. The notion of carrying a concealed weapon of any kind (let alone a firearm) is completely foreign to me. I am like you whether you know it or not, I am a husband and a father and I would defend my family to the death but that notion in itself is also foreign to me. My country and my lifestyle has never thrown me that challenge or even come close. Obviously the world is changing, maybe one day we will need to arm ourselves to the hilt. Aldo

12Footer · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by Dunaruna: Peter, most of your post is simply not true. Firearm related crime did not dramatically rise, in fact over the last 5 years it has steadily dropped. The way in which crime statistics are collated and reported has greatly improved.

Aldo, us Americans have been known to re-direct data collection to justify our rotten legilation also. F'rinstance, air polution; Our environmentalist whacko party was not happy when the new standards for plant emmisions were changed to comply with the new laws they forced-thru. It left them without a job. So they went back to making signs and biatching,to have the emmissions lowered even more. While they were doing that, they bought some scientists to change how they collected data as regards to polutants. Some of these people were motivated by an honest desire to clean up the environment, while others were motivated to keep thier appopintments....while others just wanted to force American production to it's knees. Whatever thier motivations, thier end result was the same. Another, more recent example of this phenomenon, is the "mamatee protection" clowns here in the state of Florida...The whackos won, but are still not satisfied, because man still uses boats....But that's strarting to wonder off-topic, so I'll save it for another thread. But suffice to say that any gun laws they get passed will never be adequate in thier minds. And yes, I think the same qualities that make a good American, also make a good "Aussie".We have allways backed each other up in a fight. Stay free over there.

POINTER94 · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

What about the rights of the poor innocent who cops a slug in the arse because some maniac is exercising his 'rights'?

We have civil court for a remedy. Have you seen the awards for hot coffee spilled on oneself by an idiot, I would love to cop a slug in the arse. I would hire John Edwards. As for the initial question, why would anyone want to go to the north pole, run a marathon, stand up for what is right. Understand it or not, the SECOND amendment was to protect us from the government. If snapperbait would like a bazooka, sobeit. I have no idea why someone would like an automatic assult rifle, but if you think for a second that making them illegal will take them out of the hands of crimminals your fooling yourself. If you think that our military would uniformly turn arms against the citizenry on a national scale you again are misguided. The abstinance arguement as a means of birth control and protection against transmission of STD's is readily dismissed by the same people who would like to ban guns. A double standard? I don't know, but it is difficult to justify the discrepancy. In this country private property rights are tatamont to the freedom we still somewhat have. The right to protect our property, loved ones, and ourselves defines what it is to be an american. There are those who still live off the land, off the grid if you will, have no need for government handouts or programs, and want to live life as they see fit. Hunting rights are part of that freedom. Guns are helpful in hunting. There are far more people who want nothing to do with the government mapped out existance than the liberal establishment would understand or be willing to admit exists. Remember it is alway better to be judged by twelve of your peers than carried by six of your friends.

dogsdad · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by achris: 

not at all, but it helps keep the gov't in check.

Click to expand...

So why have guns you don't intend to use? A threat isn't a threat if you don't intend to carry through... How does this keep the govt in check? I looked at the link for the papers, had a quick read to try to find the relevant section, no success. It would take weeks to wade through that lot... Is there an abridged version anywhere? Something that cuts out all the babble and gets the the core and essence of the subject. Chris............

Keeps the gov in check because they know it's much easier to make subjects out of unarmed people. We are a bit more difficult to bully around than an unarmed nation. The abridged version you are asking about would be the Second Amendment to our Constitution. By the way, the Second Amendment has nothing to do with Indians or any of that. It is purely to keep government afraid of the people, and that is how the founders meant it. -dd-

mrbscott19 · Aug 9, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I agree that used to be the case, but nowadays the government has many, many more effective and lethal weapons in its arsenal. There is no amount of guns today that could ever keep the government in check. Maybe 200 years ago, or even 100, but not today. Look at Iraq.(not meaning to be political) The insurgents are very, very well armed, but don't stand a chance against the coalition in a head-to-head fight. We kill something like 100 of them to every 1 of us they kill in combat. They point a gun, we point a missle. In todays society, the only thing a gun is good for is protection against someone else with a gun.

Help an Aussie to understand......

Chief Petty Officer

Lieutenant

More fish than mountain goat

Lieutenant

More fish than mountain goat

Lieutenant

Commander

More fish than mountain goat

Vice Admiral

More fish than mountain goat

Admiral

Supreme Mariner

Commander

Supreme Mariner

More fish than mountain goat

Admiral

Fleet Admiral

Vice Admiral

Lieutenant

Chief Petty Officer