Help an Aussie to understand......

[12Footer]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

The reason we Americans carry heat still is because they haven't been able to rip them from our cold, dead fingers, and not be charged with murder. It's all been said above, and I'll not belabor it.<br />But I didn't know, and I'm sorry to hear that the criminals won over there. I never woulda thunk it.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br />[QB<br />American riflemen like a wide variety of rifles and calibers, and use them for many different purposes including competition, self-defense, hunting, or just shooting for fun. There is no justification whatsoever to restrict firearms ownership for cosmetic reasons, especially in light of what our Constitution says.<br /><br /><br />-dd- [/QB]

As do we but apart from the adreneline rush of pulling the trigger of a machine gun, whats the point in the hands of a civilian? <br /><br />Our constitution does not have any reference in regard to the right to bear arms but thats not a bad thing when you view this subject with our culture and lifestyle in mind. Our history has never throw us a challenge that has required us to arm ourselves on our own soil.<br /><br />I suppose all I am saying is that from your perspective our gun laws are an invasion of our civil rights, from our perspective they are exactly as we want them. For us, more lenient gun ownership would be an invasion of our civil rights. Does that last sentence make sense from your perspective? I'm not that good at putting words together on a keyboard but I feel very strongly about this, as you do about your constitutional rights.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

As Skinnywater said, you're better off reading it from the horses mouth. (oh well it sounds good)<br /><br /> The Federalist Papers.<br /> http://leftjustified.org/leftjust/lib/sc/ht/fed/ <br /><br />Keep in mind that the concerns of our Forefathers remain valid today. Names and characters might change but the general nature of man and governments have not. We would like to believe that we are somehow above and beyond all of the concerns of our Forefathers, but I for one will stick with their timeless wisdom.

 

[Peter J Fraser]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Hi all,<br />Its worth noting that in Australia the rate of firearms related crime went up dramatically after the Port Arthur debacle when the Aust. Govt decide that they would buy back virtually all firearms from the public arena. How did they do this? by declaring just about everything illegal and forcing owners to 'surrender' them to the Govt. They destroyed hundreds of thousands of firearms some of which were very valuable examples.<br />Thankfully we have not reached that stage in NZ yet despite the best efforts of our soft left Govt.<br />Registration has been mooted but dropped (for the moment).<br />I'll continue to teach rabbits and possums how to do backflips until I run out of lead.<br /><br />Peter

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Would a good American make a good Australian or visa versa? I think so. Many people have crossed the pacific both ways and successfully settled.<br /><br />I suspect our ideals and expectations are the same, just not exactly the same.<br /><br />Still buds right?<br /><br />Aldo

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I suppose all I am saying is that from your perspective our gun laws are an invasion of our civil rights, from our perspective they are exactly as we want them. For us, more lenient gun ownership would be an invasion of our civil rights. Does that last sentence make sense from your perspective?

It makes 100% sense from my perspective. <br />I can't imagine why someone would deny you the things that make you happy.<br /><br />Still as a good American, I'd put to great of an importance on individualism to get on well in Australia.<br />And yet it would only be a great positive in being buds. I'd always try to leave the bar with me buying you more beers then was bought for me.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by Dunaruna:<br />Still buds right?

We better be! We are grossly outnumbered and it's only gonna get worse. The Anglo and western populations are in a disasterous decline. Just do yourself an educational favor and read the Federalist Papers. Who knows, maybe you'll wanna exchange passports when your through.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by peterf:<br /> Thankfully we have not reached that stage in NZ yet despite the best efforts of our soft left Govt.<br />Registration has been mooted but dropped (for the moment).<br />I'll continue to teach rabbits and possums how to do backflips until I run out of lead.

You can bet your bottom $ that they will not stop. It's been a tough enough fight here, even with our Constitution. Ya gotta wonder about their motives when they expend as much energy and $$$'s as they do, to relieve us of our firearms. Makes you kinda think that they were onto something when AH wrote the Federalist Papers.

 

[Link]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Duh!<br />Chris..................<br /><br />P.S. I am opposed to guns, if you were wondering.<br />-----------------------<br />Like you needed to add that<br /><br />Check your countries stats.. check Englands... where ever guns are are banned the crime rate goes up.....<br /><br />Link

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I think Achris must of run and hid from this firestorm he started. But maybe PW2 and Rolmops will come to his rescue.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Peter, most of your post is simply not true. <br /><br />Firearm related crime did not dramatically rise, in fact over the last 5 years it has steadily dropped. The way in which crime statistics are collated and reported has greatly improved.<br /><br />I, for one, have not 'surrendered' my firearms. I own & use them within the structure of the new laws, no problem. People who never used their guns surrendered them because they didn't understand or didn't care to understand the new laws. It was a kneejerk reaction to the Port Arthur "nutcase in the belltower" senario. The simple truth is that hunting and recreational rifle use is alive and well.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by Dunaruna:<br /> Peter, most of your post is simply not true. <br /><br />Firearm related crime did not dramatically rise, in fact over the last 5 years it has steadily dropped. The way in which crime statistics are collated and reported has greatly improved.<br /><br />I, for one, have not 'surrendered' my firearms. I own & use them within the structure of the new laws, no problem. People who never used their guns surrendered them because they didn't understand or didn't care to understand the new laws. It was a kneejerk reaction to the Port Arthur "nutcase in the belltower" senario. The simple truth is that hunting and recreational rifle use is alive and well.<br /><br />Aldo

I assume that, owning firearms, you are on a Govenment list somewhere. Would the 'new laws' have averted the Port Arthur incident? And incidently, I'll predict, whatever the nature of the 'new laws' were, it will not stop there.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I must have a shooter license and a gun ownership license so yes, I'm on a list. But I'm also on a list because of my drivers lisence, voting registry, business registration, visa card, telephone account, hospital visit, fishing license..... etc.<br /><br /> They know who I am and that I own guns. They are also elected by me and 20 million other Aussies, plenty of political parties that will reverse the gun laws. All it takes is 10,000,001 people to do it. So far the government that instigated these laws has won everytime with a vast majority (we don't have maximum terms in office), and we've got an election looming. Guns just aren't rated up there with schools, medical, roads etc. <br /><br />Would the new laws have averted Port Arthur? I don't think so. A nutcase is a nutcase. He would have got the rifle illegally or used a bomb - dunno. I personally believe that the new laws came in too heavy too fast, but the Gov has done so much good in other areas that the gun laws are a minor issue when put into perspective.<br /><br />BTW, you might find this hard to believe but I fully understand and respect your take on this, I just disagree.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

The simple truth is that hunting and recreational rifle use is alive and well.

See, this is where all this serious, open and objective debate can shed light.<br /><br />Something that may be absent in Australia might be old hat here.<br />This is very condusive to the division and split recognised in American political debate.<br />For 30 years or better the liberals have been imposing a socialistic drift upon the rest. It's been those same leftists that impose a living document while ignoring original intent and specific instructions from the founders, NOT to make this document anything other then what is written by original intent. <br /><br />This and the fact that not one political, social or practical compromise given to the left, has ever made them satisfied. Political, social and practical compromise given, always leads to the left wanting more, then more, and more.<br />Factually and historically, compromise given to a leftist gives thier agenda support for the next battle to get more compromise. A liberal is truely happy when they have it all thier own way.<br /><br /> So be informed, and understand that the battle for gun control here in the US is evidence that the same recreational and sporting/hunting rifle you enjoy and own, is a huge problem to a liberal here in the US. <br />A toy gun is a problem with a liberal. Even a fishing hook is a problem with several high power liberal groups.<br /><br />As an added perspective. Yes, there is a lot of guns here. There is also a lot of people who make money off of crime here. So there isn't a honest incentive to do away with crime.<br />There are a lot of lawyers, criminals and liberals here.<br />The law abiding, the individual, and the gun in possession of the law abiding individual, isn't happening with thier agendas.

 

[PW2]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

We like to live in fear here, we like to elect people that tell us what to fear next, and we like to blame someone, anyone else for our fear.<br /><br />And we are happy having an exponentially higher gun violence rate than anywhere else in the world.<br /><br />So it goes.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> We like to live in fear here, we like to elect people that tell us what to fear next, and we like to blame someone, anyone else for our fear.<br /><br />And we are happy having an exponentially higher gun violence rate than anywhere else in the world.<br /><br />So it goes.

No fear, PW, just historical pragmatism. Something the Left has precious little of in areas I won't get into in this thread.

 

[achris]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I didn't realize I would start such a heated debate. I was also not aware that the subject had been delt with at length not long ago. So for those transgressions I apologize. But I digress... On with the show...<br /><br />

Originally quoted by Boomyal.<br />I think Achris must of run and hid from this firestorm he started

Not at all. I'm still here and still curious. I'd like to know what the 'fun' is in propelling a small piece of lead out of a hollow tube of steel.<br /><br />As Dunaruna said, the government that bought down the new gun laws has not been defeated in an election since that time and it doesn't look like they lose this one coming up. Also bear in mind that they are the right-wing, conservatives. Since Port Arthur and the new laws we haven't had a 'run-a-muck with a gun' crime like that. <br /><br />Your forefathers added the second amendment because of a perceived threat internally (Indians) and externally (British). Neither of these threats are valid now. <br /><br />If a threat materialized and you wished to defend your country wouldn't you join the army? How has 'bearing arms' helped in the fight against terror? How much did an armed civilian population stop the attacks on the WTC?<br /><br />Hypothetically... If you woke up tomorrow and guns were as difficult to possess as they are in Australia, and everybody abided by that law and handed in the guns, what difference would it make to national security? I venture to suggest - NIL!<br /><br />Chris..............<br />(Not running away)

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by Boomyal:<br /> Not criticism, Dunaruna, just surprise and that out of concern for my fair cousins. Self defense and sport is a small part of the justification of owning firearms. Although I lock my door at night I do not live in fear for personal safety. There could be some places that I might go, where that is not the case, however.<br /><br />We both eminated from the same root, albiet under different circumstances. Our Fore Fathers, very wisely, understood what can happen to a population who was without arms. It had little to do with personal safety. Our right to bear arms was written into the Constitution as a safeguard against both foreign and domestic governments that would try to subjugate our citizenry.<br /><br />It is an understanding that is no less valid today. As a previous poster noted, the Japanese would not have attempted to invade the U.S. because of the armed citizenry. The Germans, in part, did not invade Switzerland due to the high calculated cost of an armed citizenry. When Hitler threatened to invade England, they were more that happy to accept donated arms from the personal arsenals of American Citizens. A small group of armed Jews kept the Nazis at bay, in Poland, for six weeks before they ran out of ammunition and were overwhelmed. And they died without the humiliation, suffering and pain that would have been suffered in the concentration camps.<br /><br />History is rife with examples of populations being disarmed before they were subjugated, or simply overrun because they were not armed.<br /><br />I do not live in fear of this happening to me. Gun ownership, by responsible citizens, is simply a right given us for good reasons. And I for one intend on doing my utmost to retain that right. If my Government does not trust me, then I certainly do not trust my Government.<br /><br />For as similar as we are, I have learned that there are signifigant differences as well. I do not mean this, either, as a criticism. Just an observation. It appears that Australians are just more comfortable with a lot of forms of regulation that Americans, todate, would not stand for. To allow for personal choice, in the matter, no American is forced to own firearms either.

Timeout ref. Hey boomyal, how can you answer a post that I posted one minute later? <br /><br />Regardless, point taken. Now you've got me worried about those pesky Indonesians <br /><br />EDIT: Chris, from one Aussie to another, tread lightly with the WTC.

 

[achris]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Just an observation. It appears that Australians are just more comfortable with a lot of forms of regulation that Americans, todate, would not stand for.

Are you kidding! Your government has far more control over you than you are aware.... A few years back our government tried to bring in the equivalent of your Social Security number, called the Australia Card. The public outcry was astounding and the idea was summarily thrown out. The people voiced their opinion and the government listened. Your Social Security number is how your government knows where you live, where you work, how much you earn, who your doctor is, when you were last sick, how many children you have, your wife's name, all your details on ownership of cars, houses, trucks, boats.... Get the picture? What freedoms do you have that the government doesn't know about?<br /><br />Chris...........<br /><br />Dunaruna : message received and very well understood.

 

[cp]

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

A lot of good reasons have been given by my fellow Americans for our right to bear arms, and maybe somewhere in there one touched on my personal reason for being an advocate of personal ownership of firearms, so please forgive me if this is a repeat. My reason is in the form of a cliche: 'God created man in all sizes, shapes and forms; Smith and Wesson made all men equal.'<br /><br />I would not want my 5'3" 100# wife to be at the mercy of a drug-crazed 6'3" 200# burglar, nor a rabid cougar or hungry bear, for example (for our Aussie friends substitute dingo and croc?). She wouldn't fare very well against any of them with a sword. Neither would I. Have we ever had to face anything like that? No, and we hope to never do so. But we won't have to rely on any sword or have to pray that the police maybe get here in time, thanks to being Americans.