Help an Aussie to understand......

Kenneth Brown · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I agree that used to be the case, but nowadays the government has many, many more effective and lethal weapons in its arsenal. There is no amount of guns today that could ever keep the government in check. Maybe 200 years ago, or even 100, but not today. Look at Iraq.(not meaning to be political) The insurgents are very, very well armed, but don't stand a chance against the coalition in a head-to-head fight. We kill something like 100 of them to every 1 of us they kill in combat. They point a gun, we point a missle. In todays society, the only thing a gun is good for is protection against someone else with a gun.

I beleive that there are a few people down in Southeast Asia that would disagree with that statement. How do you suppose the govt. is going to field the troops when the whole country is against the govt.?

samagee · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Chris, my problem with you is your elitist attitude and that you seem to be living in a fantasy world. To think that a criminal is going to go by the law and not carry a weapon, is just nuts. To walk around anywhere in your city and not have to worry if you are going to be jumped, is stretching it to far. In fact I personaly see it as down right iresponsible of you as a husband, father, and a citizen. We live in two seperate countries. I don't think you need to try and convince us of being like you. We don't need to convince you to be like us. Our countries have a forum for talking out differances. It is the, now defunct, United Nations. That is where things can get resolved, and you won't have to worry about us carrying guns. I can asure you that my gun can not reach you over there. So you can continue to scuba dive and not have to worry about dodging any stray shots from the U.S. citizens. Just because someone owns a gun, doesn't give them the right to just go out and shoot someone. Over here we have more deaths caused by car accidents than by accidental gun shootings. That 11,000 that PW2 mentioned was total gun shootings. That included other types of shootings than accidental, be it shootings from a police officer having to discharge their firearm to a homicide over drugs. I work in a place where I see these figures all the time. I work in the IS department of an elected offical. As someone else mentioned. I don't see an outcry about the millions of unborn children who are slaughtered each year. I don't even see anyone realy giving a damn if the father of the child has a say in if their kid gets killed or not. I personally teach my kids to not even get in that situation in the first place. Again, responsibility. The same goes for guns. We teach each other that there are consquences to our actions. You absolutely do not draw your firearm unless you are going to use it. Then you had better not be drawing it unless you absolutely have to use it. I guess what I am getting at, is that we all need to respect what each others countries are about. Yes I am sure it would be easier if we were all the same. However, we are not. So each country needs to respect the others decision to run itself as it sees fit. Trying to cause something to be seen as an evil thing by citizens of another country is propaganda. Trying to change the way a country's citizens aproach a subject matter from with in it's citizenship. I would like you to either stop it, or realize that there are those who will stand up to it. Once you do something like that, you can't say ok I agree to disagree. That just looks like you backing away to try another day.

mellowyellow · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

have only read about half of the almost 100 posts, but feel obligated to answer our mate Chris from a different perspective. I do NOT own a single gun, yet I would fight with every ounce to keep ownership free, much like I would fight for any number of personal freedoms... a word I posted sometime back in this thread says it all; "accountability"! people should be held accountable for their actions without mercy rather than the gov't passing laws to try to deter some behavior. eg: huge numbers of americans die each year from the result of poor diet and lack of excercise. should the feds step in and force people to eat healthy and excercise? eg2: alchohol is responsible for most of "vehicular manslaughter" cases, do we need the gov't to outlaw liquor to prevent this? the real answer is; "where does it stop" IMHO. will close with New Hampshire state flag that reads: "Live Free or Die"!!!! carry on, M.Y.

dogsdad · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by mrbscott19: I agree that used to be the case, but nowadays the government has many, many more effective and lethal weapons in its arsenal. There is no amount of guns today that could ever keep the government in check. Maybe 200 years ago, or even 100, but not today. Look at Iraq.(not meaning to be political) The insurgents are very, very well armed, but don't stand a chance against the coalition in a head-to-head fight. We kill something like 100 of them to every 1 of us they kill in combat. They point a gun, we point a missle. In todays society, the only thing a gun is good for is protection against someone else with a gun.

BS. It matters not one whit what the government has in its arsenal. Your attempt to trivialize the importance of an armed citizenry is lame at best.

Boomyal · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by mrbscott19: I agree that used to be the case, but nowadays the government has many, many more effective and lethal weapons in its arsenal. There is no amount of guns today that could ever keep the government in check. Maybe 200 years ago, or even 100, but not today. Look at Iraq.(not meaning to be political) The insurgents are very, very well armed, but don't stand a chance against the coalition in a head-to-head fight. We kill something like 100 of them to every 1 of us they kill in combat. They point a gun, we point a missle. In todays society, the only thing a gun is good for is protection against someone else with a gun.

Hmmmm! That's interesting. We are repeatedly told that Iraq is unwinnable, in fact a quaqmire, because of the tactics of these Iraqi Minutemen. I think Iraq is a pretty good testimony to the effectiveness of 'bearing arms'. I, of course do not agree with the Iraqi postitions, nor are the Iraqi's facing a despotic power that seeks to do them harm but how much more effective might a large group of armed Americans be, facing a government gone bad. Sure, they might die in the end, but isn't that potentially what our own Forefathers faced? And if you had the option of being totally subjugated by a despot, would you choose the opportunity to fight, with high probability of death, or the gulags. As MY states, "Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst of Evils", it is imbedded deeply in the American psyche. I just finished reading a book on Iwo Jima. (Flags of our Fathers). Even though that involved the military , a civilian one at that, you do not accomplish what they were able to do, against the Japanese, without without that psyche. Sure, we may never need to use them, but you use that as a justification to take them away, and you increase the possibility that they may be needed in the future. I want my children and grandchildren to have that same 'right' as have all Americans that have gone before.

SoulWinner · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Amen MY, Amen.. Shalom brother

mellowyellow · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

peace SW

aspeck · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Chris, I agree with all the "Rights" arguments that have presented so far, so I will not even go there. You did ask, why do we want to own guns, and so many of them. Well, I cannot speak for the "WE", but I can speak for me. I own more than 30 weapons - pistols, shotguns, rifles, flintlock muzzleloaders (don't get me started on bows and knives). I enjoy looking at them - admiring some of the workmanship. I also have different calibres and gauges for different useages. As I look at the different guns, they are all associated with different hunts, different times, different friends, etc. I open the gun safe and it is a trip down memory lane. I enjoy hunting very much - it is the one time I can get out with a cell phone strapped to me. I enjoy the outdoors, the challenge of the hunt, and the satisfaction of good, healthy meat or poultry on the table. I enjoy target practice. It is relaxing and challenging, not as expensive or time consuming as, say, golf or scuba diving. Lastly, I like my gun for the added thought of protection. Yes, it may only be a security blanket - shucks, where I live the back door is almost always open anyway and the car can be parked downtown and left with the windows open and the keys in the ignition (however, not when I leave the Ruger or Smith IN the car - only when it is under the belt, over the shoulder, or around the ankle). To be honest, the protection aspect comes in more from wild animals. So, Chris, you can like what you like, that is fine with me, just don't mess with some of my best friends, Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson, Mr. Ruger, Mr. Winchester, Mr. Remington, Mr. Weatherby, Mr. Tikka, etc.

mellowyellow · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

MY not worried about Aspeck owning 1 or many guns, and that has nothing to do with the gov't, it's all about Aspeck... defense rests.

bring a couple sweet 16's up for pheasants...

achris · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

FINALLY! Thank you Aspeck. This is what I was looking for. Not some longwinded diatribe on the constitutional rights. I was not out to convince you that it was wrong (or right for that matter) I was curious as to why. What it is that drives the gun ownership thing. I would like this thread to end right here, because the question has now been answered. And thank you all for contributing. Chris...........

NathanY · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

I know why you dont understand Achris. The biggest fear that one can have is being conquered, beaten up, a loser, or what ever. We as Americans have never had any of the above done to us because of our Right to bear arms. But our bretheren down in Austrailia have never had that right, therefore they have already been conquered, and now fear the freedoms that we have.

achris · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Nathan, what are you on about? Australia has never been conquered! The Japanese tried in WWII and were driven back by a very badly outnumbered army, both in Darwin and in PNG. What most Australian fear about uncontrolled gun ownership is the escalation. If Fred has one, I want one, only bigger. Then Fred gets a bigger one so I need a bigger one than that. Our system works without the need for gun ownership. Most Australian are very happy with that. When the need to repel invaders arises, we do it by joining the military, not as an untrained, uncontrolled rabble. Another thing. Guns are not banned in this country. If you can demonstrate a need to own/use you can do so. That means farmers, law enforcement and sport shooters.

Dunaruna · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Chris, with all due respect, describing the lengthy explainations on this thread concerning the U.S. Constitution as diatribe is offensive, AND I'M AN AUSSIE! Everyone has views, thats all they are, individual opinions. I don't agree with some views here and obviously you don't also but they ALL deserve respect IMO. Aldo

Dunaruna · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Quote:{Nathan, what are you on about? Australia has never been conquered! The Japanese tried in WWII and were driven back by a very badly outnumbered army, both in Darwin and in PNG.} Chris, what are YOU talking about, if it wasn't for the U.S. war machine in WW2 we and most of Europe would be speaking Japanese or german now. Don't get me wrong, Aussies are and always have been fierce combatants in times of war and we have never shyed away from a rumble but we didn't (and still don't) have the numbers to go it alone, even though we would try. Quote

What most Australian fear about uncontrolled gun ownership is the escalation. If Fred has one, I want one, only bigger. Then Fred gets a bigger one so I need a bigger one than that.) I don't know if fear is the right word but I agree with the principle of that statment. Aldo

NathanY · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Screw it, just be a ***** down in Austrailia.

Skinnywater · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Posted by me on up the page;

It isn't about gun ownership at all. It's about laws, rights, respect, choice, custom, responsibility and freedom.

Yep, Boomyal's first post predicted this would all be in vain. Sent him to school and all he did was eat the covers off the books.

Boomyal · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Originally posted by Skinnywater: Posted by me on up the page; 

It isn't about gun ownership at all. It's about laws, rights, respect, choice, custom, responsibility and freedom. 

Click to expand...

Yep, Boomyal's first post predicted this would all be in vain. Sent him to school and all he did was eat the covers off the books.

I think he just about knawed the hand off the teacher, Skinnywater!

achris · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Aldo, Read up about the battle on the Kakoda trail before you make anymore statements. As for Amercian never being beaten? The Confederates were comprehensively beaten in 1864, they lost in Vietnam, Korea wasn't such a wonderful success either. And what about the Bay of Pigs fiasco? Don't try and tell me that Amercian has never been beaten because it just ain't true! Here's another issue I'm a bit miffed about. East Timor. We (Australia) asked the US for assistance for a peacekeeping mission. The reply - "Not our region." Hello! Iraq isn't our region, but we aided when the call came! I'm outta here! Bye all!!!

KeltonKrew · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Achris, since you're not a TRUE RED BLOODED AMERICAN, you'll never understand...No sense arguing with you.

Link · Aug 10, 2004

Re: Help an Aussie to understand......

Chris I figured you were just trolling as in my first post. #28. First a quote from aspect:

I own more than 30 weapons - pistols, shotguns, rifles, flintlock muzzleloaders (don't get me started on bows and knives). I enjoy looking at them - admiring some of the workmanship. I also have different calibres and gauges for different useages. As I look at the different guns, they are all associated with different hunts, different times, different friends, etc. I open the gun safe and it is a trip down memory lane.

Didn't want to quote his whole post but for me its about the same reasons. Except not everyone here (in America) is a GUN NUT like aspect

30+ OMG! Chris if you were to look in my gun safe I swear before G*d you would only find 9 to 10 pistols (depending on which ones were with me) and only 10 to 11 rifles. We are all not gun nuts here like aspect!

Oh (but they are not in the gun safe so they don't count) Two cannons.. Baby and Big Bertha! Baby is only good at the range for about 150 yards (shoots black powder pistol balls) Big Bertha is good for a mile! (and shoots down rigger balls) in size. but can only use her on the 1000 yard range. Practical uses for weapons and fishing gear. I grew up in a logging town here in Washington state and (early 60's) during dinner at the table every once my dad would say casually that the freezer was getting a bit low. He did not direct that to anyone, just a comment. But I knew he meant that it would be nice if a deer or elk would show up in that freezer in the next couple weeks. Jump to the early 70's. I'm in the Army, married with my first kid and just transfered from Ft Bragg NC to Ft Lewis WA. As often happened back then my pay was messed up. (Instead of my $400.00 a month I only recieved $150.00 for nine months) We had a little in savings so the $150.00 covered our house payment and savings covered electric and water. Savings also covered potatoes and veggis and gas to get to work.. but the rest I made up with hunting deer, elk and fishing.. kept food on the table. And a balanced diet! Many years later..(30) I still hunt every year to keep my skills up and just enjoy nature but if I fall on hard times I know I will eat.. even if it is stinky Ole fish! BTW Chris the town I grew up in is still the same way in 2004 (1959-2004) .. My brother never locks his doors and his keys are always in his truck or car..where they should be..

Just my thoughts Link

Help an Aussie to understand......

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