It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

[SoulWinner]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Yeah I know LD. I have research this thoroughly. When she was ill with infections shortly after this all began, he curiously refused to allow doctors to administer aid to help fight the infections. I want to kick his ***

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

You guys are getting very political too. "Party of Death"... gimme a break ... and I am a Republican. <br /><br />As far as I know, no one here has ever seen her, or met with her.<br /><br />Untill then, you cannot make any judgement on weather she should die or not. Dont you think that both sides may have been a bit biased in their press releases.<br /><br />As I said before, when I saw my friend who was in a similar situation, you could tell he was "not alive".<br /><br />Comparing her to a quadrapaligic or Stephen Halwkings is apples to oranges. They are both sentient. If you are not sentient, you are already dead.<br /><br />Whether or not she is sentient should only be determined by professionals.<br /><br />Ken

 

[jimchere]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Ok, so I'm for life. But let's derail this thread and look at things through a wider scope. What you are seeing is fascinating, a result of technology, and a test of our system of government to adapt.<br />This is a power struggle between the judicial, legislative, and executive branches of our government. We have a judicial branch that morally and ethically disagrees with the majority of those holding office in the legislative and executive branches. This, in my humble and probably moronic opinion, is a consequence of "time lag." Legislative and executive members of our government face the election process every 2-6 years (depending on which you're talking about). Judicial branch power is afforded "until unable to execute" or whenever that individual gives up office or croaks. Bottom line of all this crap is that the timelines between the judicial and other branches of government have been disjointed from the start, and its taken a couple hundred years and change for it to rear its head.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Jimchere,<br /><br />Check out the new book by "The Great One" Mr Levin titled "Men In Black." It goes into great depth to explain the leftist power base and bastion known as the Judicial Branch, or more cogently, the Despotic Branch. Ruth Bader is a nut, and has no business on the Supreme Court. Just another fine example of Massachusetts politics at work.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Ken, I think you're ignoring the fact that the medical conclusions are in dispute. 17 Neurologists have signed affidavits that she is not in a PVS.<br /><br />SW, give me a break on the MA stuff will ya. MA is a small state with only 10 congressmen and 2 senators and the last MA born president was JFK. The last MA born Speaker of the House was Tip O'Neil back in the early 80s.<br /><br />Terri is in FL.<br /><br />Ginsburg is from NY and was appointed by Clinton.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Ralph, I dont argue that. I dont go for either side.<br /><br />I am arguing that some people seem to think they know what to do in this situation, and I dont think there is any way you can know what to do until you meet her.<br /><br />Ken

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Good for you Ken. Keep an open minded. This is a tough issue and tough case and good people can disagree.<br /><br />If nothing else, everybody should have a living will. IMHO don't let them withhold food or water unless you are declared legally brain dead - very different situation from this case based on my research and analysis.

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE STATE <br /><br />This term is commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death." It can follow a coma. <br />People in a persistent vegetative state cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings. They may have noncognitive functions and breathing and circulation may remain relatively intact. <br /><br />They also might move spontaneously and even grimace, cry or laugh. Some people might regain some awareness after being in a persistent vegetative state, but others might remain in the state for decades.

 

[wvit100]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

During the years she has been in a vegetative state, her parents reported their daughter laughed, cried, smiled and responded to their voices. Video showing the dark-haired woman appearing to interact with her family was televised nationally. But the court-appointed doctor said the noises and facial expressions she made were reflexes. <br /><br /> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/22/health/main579571.shtml

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Her state is ultimately in dispute.<br /><br />A Doc was just on Fox. Shep was pushing him for the "she's a vegetable" answers. The Doc said:<br /><br />1) People in her condition do recover to the point where they respond to stimuli - he likened it to how a cat reacts when you pet it.<br /><br />2) The brain rewires itself and creates new circuits.<br /><br />3) She can be taught to eat on her own with therapy<br /><br />4) In her condition she can feel pain. <br /><br />4) She will experience pain as a results of having water and food withheld. Doctor's will have to giver her morphine<br /><br />If we are going to allow people like this to be put to death we better have the courage to make it quick and painless.

 

[wvit100]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Her husband says she would not want to be kept alive in that condition, but her parents insist she could recover with treatment.<br /><br />Bob Schindler visited his daughter late Sunday and said he noticed the effects of dehydration on her. He said she appeared to be getting tired, but eventually responded to his teasing by making a face at him.<br /><br />"It tells us she's still with us," he said.<br /><br />Brian Schiavo, Michael's brother, said he spent Sunday afternoon with his brother and Terri at the hospice, but Terri did not move or make any noises. "Anybody that thinks that she talks and responds, they need to have a mental health examination," he said.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Originally posted by Ralph:<br /> If we are going to allow people like this to be put to death we better have the courage to make it quick and painless.

That is something we should all agree on. Starving anyone just so you can say "she died of natural causes" is a big cop out. Grow some ba__s and kill her quickly, if you choose that route.<br /><br />Ken

 

[Fly Rod]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Lubedude <br />You can check my replies on this post and never once have I said that I wanted her to die!!!!!<br /><br />I would not want to be in the husbands, mother or fathers shoes on this.!!!!<br /><br />If it were my daughter or son and they were married, I couldn't say what I would do or not do!!!<br /><br />Now if it were my wife in the same condition as Terri, the tube would be removed, because it is in her "Living Will" and it would have been pulled way before 15 years!!!!

 

[wvit100]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Why no compromise is likely: <br /><br />The battle between Terri Schiavo's husband and parents has been bitter. The Schindlers argue that Michael Schiavo--who has fathered two children with his fiance in recent years--is an unfit guardian and has a conflict of interest. Michael Schiavo alleges that Bob Schindler sought a share of the malpractice settlement, which he denies. The money is gone, much of it spent on legal bills related to Michael Schiavo's efforts to end life support.<br /><br />The legal fight: <br /><br />Florida courts have ruled consistently for Michael Schiavo. Florida's Supreme Court last year struck down "Terri's Law," which let Gov. Jeb Bush intervene in the case.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Amen Ken. Couldn't have said it better myself. <br /><br />One thing I really hate is hypocrisy and doctor's are the biggest hypocrites in the world. By oath they can do no harm. To them, that means they can't do the injection but it does allow them to keep food an water from you. Total, spineless, cowardly hypocrites.

 

[wvit100]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Drawing on statistics from the American Medical Association, Mayo said many families will face similarly difficult choices - even if they do not end up in the public limelight.<br /><br />He noted that 80 percent of deaths occur in institutional settings like hospitals and 80 percent of those result after decisions are made to in some way limit care. And he said up to 70 percent of deaths occur when patients have diminished brain functions, having fallen into comas or become vegetative. Legal and medical experts said rulings from previous cases have made the law clear, giving guardianship to the spouse.<br /><br />Mayo said Texas has one of the most progressive laws, which provides a procedure for physicians to consult with a hospital's ethics committee and remove life support when there is a family disagreement.<br /><br />"We make these decisions at our hospitals all the time," Fine said. "We invest a lot of time and effort to help good families who sometimes simply see the world differently."<br /><br />Mayo said those conflicts rarely go to court, as resolutions are usually found with family members through the intervention of doctors and medical ethics experts at hospitals.<br /><br />"You often see families who disagree, but you do not see families that go to battle for 15 years," Mayo said.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

From what I understand, Terri Shiavo's condition started in early 1990. She was hospitalized, and underwent treatment and therapy for three years. In 1993, Micheal Shiavo ordered the doctors to discontinue therapy.<br /><br />I obviously don't know Michael Shiavo's true motives, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. THREE YEARS his wife underwent therapy. That's a long time to sit by a hospital bed and pray for a sign of recovery, but none ever came.<br /><br />Before you label Michael Shiavo a terrible husband, put yourself in his shoes. If you're wife is unresponsive, at what point do you pull the plug? Three years? Eight years?<br /><br />What if you're wife's family wouldn't let you pull the plug. Would you fight them? I know I would. I'd be screaming at them "She's not getting any better, for God's sake, just let her die." I'd be spending every last penny I had fighting to finally lay my poor wife to rest and end her suffering.<br /><br />The first few years, I'd be doing everything possible to save my wife, you bet. But if she doesn't recover, I'd be doing everything possible to finally lay her to rest. Maybe Michael Shiavo is doing the same, fighting for his wife's right to die.

 

[12Footer]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> I just love the way repubs spin this.<br /><br />They want the government out of our lives...<br />except on issues of life, death, and sex.<br /><br />Hmmm...what else is there???

Well I'll be dipped! FINALLY! You nailed it, PW2, and I must say, it's about time.<br />That is PRECISELY what we demand from our Government! We demand that it "provide for our defense", and allow us "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".<br />It's truely a great day, PW, when you and I can see eye-to-eye on things this way! <br />I just knew you would not give ememy combatants in Guantanamo those basic "rights", without giving them to Terri.<br />Immagine if we pulled the food and water away from them!!! Believe me, nothing would make a better statement than that. But then, we ARE a compassionate nation,and do not torture anyone, without punishing the torturer.

 

[DJ]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Facts:<br /><br />1. She's breathing on her own.<br /><br />2. She's alert and awake.<br /><br />3. She is not in this situation by her own choosing.<br /><br />So, let's starve her to death?<br /><br />Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany, to me. Not guilty of anything but being alive.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: It looks like the party of 'choice' is losing again!

Wilkin, I agree with you.<br /><br />Ken