Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

[jasoutside]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Well this is a good time....

Yah, if I put back the non draining/water holding foam the ultra smart engineers (with fancy degrees and expensive calculators) at Sea Nymph came up with - just because it's what they did (and they are certainly smarter than I am), I do believe I'd be the lemming.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Well I see any hope of a genuine discussion here is pretty well gone.

This is what was OEM on my boat. Be tough to improve upon that effectiveness

 

[Davem3]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Here's a suggestion for all of the really smart armchair and naval architects wannabes out there that think they can design their own floatation foam plans.

How about actually TESTING your floatation foam? Has anyone had the cojones to do this? Launch the boat without the plug and see how far she sinks before the foam takes over and keeps her afloat?

I've noticed on a lot of these rebuilds that large amounts of foam have been taken out of the hull, only to be replaced with a bilge full of pool noodles. We're talking boats with 2 part foam in the bilge plus large floatation pods at the stern (much like the ones J tore out in his latest thread) and large floatation logs in the gunwales on other boats.

Who here is brave enough and sure enough of their own design to actually test it? The manufacturers have to test their boats when they build them, and I think anyone that designs their own floatation system should test it too... so you'll know what to expect if the unthinkable ever happens.

I really think this would be an interesting aspect to see of the restorations done here.

I've noticed a lot of "Lemmings" just following along on what they've seen done to other boats, and I've seen some floatation installations that I know there's no way in hell that it'll ever float the boat it was installed in.

I think it would be an outstanding deed for someone to come up with a "tried and true" floatation design that others on here could follow.

you know, i really like this...........i have chewed on this all day, and at the end of the day, ask the question to 10 people, and I am sure you will have 10 different answers.

so, i take this as the gauntlet, and it is thrown down but good.

i am no brainiac by any means, but heck if you are going to modify it, the least you could do is a actual test, using weights to simulate the motor, gas, and gear.

then see how it does in real life.

However, i do like what Jason did on the JET and cannot wait to see what he does with the Sea Nymph, and i would hazard to bet if the jet went down, i believe it would float, and would gladly be a guinea pig in that experiment ...............

 

[Grandad]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

So ,,, I think that we can agree that the integrity of poured in place foam is very much dependent upon the workmanship of the installer. Hmm. I think I know what that means.
Several people have commented that one can keep this potentially absorptive product dry by providing good drainage, but I'm not convinced. By nature, boating activities invite water from leaks, fishing, swimming, skiing or rainstorms into the boat. Good drainage channels all water to the bilge where it puddles.

However, until we drain the bilge puddle back on shore, we do our darnedest to shake the vessel incessantly on every wave we encounter. We tip the vessel in every possible direction and change speeds suddenly. I envision putting a dry sponge in the top of a closed container with a small amount of water in the bottom. The sponge may be free to drain, but shaking the container is going to keep it perpetually wet and able to promote corrosion. Good drainage may help, but the foam's gotta be non absorptive first. - Grandad

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

^^^One of the best posts i've read about picking a foam type^^^

These conversations do tend to irritate me. I get ripped for putting back what my boat came with, which was prolly calculated by some real engineer and is the way almost all are done since 1979. Why do all the new ones have pour in foam in them? Because it sucks? Doubt it. Oops had a good point, pierce the hull with pour in foam and you'll make it back. Pierce the hull with other types of flotation and your going to find out REAL quick weather or not you have enough flotation. Your going to put you faith in a flotation system that you can only hope will float your boat because like jigngrub pointed out it's UN-tested.

I put in what I took out, and like I posted earlier, I can easily calculate my flotation amount by how much was poured in. Still seems like a no-brainer to me. At least until someone can produce some hard facts of another system.

Don't mean to sound like a crazy man here, but, this thread will more than likely be searched for alot, and just want anyone wanting to "improve" their boat to consider that it was a tested, safe boat when it left the factory and maybe it doesn't need improving.

you know, i really like this...........i have chewed on this all day, and at the end of the day, ask the question to 10 people, and I am sure you will have 10 different answers.

so, i take this as the gauntlet, and it is thrown down but good.

i am no brainiac by any means, but heck if you are going to modify it, the least you could do is a actual test, using weights to simulate the motor, gas, and gear.

then see how it does in real life.

However, i do like what Jason did on the JET and cannot wait to see what he does with the Sea Nymph, and i would hazard to bet if the jet went down, i believe it would float, and would gladly be a guinea pig in that experiment ...............

Thank you DJ and Dave, I expected all the naysayers... but was pleasantly surprised when someone agreed with me, and then tickled pink when 2 people actually agreed with me.

Testing your homemade floatation design really is the right thing to do... and we all know why.

Quite honestly, the only reason I can think of that someone wouldn't want to test their design would be fear of failure... and from a few of the builds I've seen on this forum, that fear could be well founded.

I still say it's better to know at the beginning if your boat is going to float in the time of an emergency than to wait and find out in the middle of an emergency. At least adjustments can be made if need be now.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

On "testing", I can only speak for myself so...

On both my Islander and Jet Star projects I used more displacement materials than what came from the factory. Common sense tells me that if I use the same or more displacement than what the engineers provided for, I should be in the green.

"So why don't you test it jas, chicken? You don't have the kahones?"

Ah negative.

I have a Mercruiser V6 bolted to that Islander. I have certainly have no interest in sacrificing 175 horses to test what common sense tells me is already true.

I sleep fine knowing that my boats will give me something to hold on to in the event of a major catastrophe.

Now that the baiting has been handled, let's bring this back to something more general, for everyone...

In my opinion, for our alum boats, so long as we replace what has been taken out, with better materials to boot (thanks for the photo ez ^^^) than it stands to reason the boat will float. Pretty simple eh

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

On "testing", I can only speak for myself so...

On both my Islander and Jet Star projects I used more displacement materials than what came from the factory. Common sense tells me that if I use the same or more displacement than what the engineers provided for, I should be in the green.

You can't match the displacement of a solid with irregular shaped pieces in the same given area.

In my opinion, for our alum boats, so long as we replace what has been taken out, with better materials to boot (thanks for the photo ez ^^^) than it stands to reason the boat will float.

I wouldn't stake my life on this without testing it out first.

I have a Mercruiser V6 bolted to that Islander. I have certainly have no interest in sacrificing 175 horses to test what common sense tells me is already true.

It's always going to be this excuse for not testing, if it isn't a V6 it's going to be a 30 or a 50 or a 90... it might even be a 9.9... and that excuse is pretty much an admission that you expect your floatation design to fail.

Take nothing for granted when it comes to safety, it's not only your life at stake... but the lives of your passengers too. Survival time in cold northern waters isn't that long, especially for children.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

that excuse is pretty much an admission that you expect your floatation design to fail

Over the line. ENOUGH.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Oh brother

--------------------------------------------------

I have said my piece in the posts above and stand by my assessment that pour in foam really has no place in an aluminum boat. The video footage at the outset pretty well seals the deal for me personally (along with many other projects that have passed through iboats). I recognize there are both positives and negatives for expanding foam and have already gone through those. For me and my boat builds, I'll be running with stuff that drains. I feel that's best.

Again, as I said earlier, strictly my non professional, non engineer, shade tree opinion. Certainly guys will disagree, that's cool.

Each back yard boat builder needs to make his own choice. This thread and my posts is an effort to simply help fellas become more informed.

For me, I do believe this thread may have run it's course. I'm all set.

All the best gents

 

[dozerII]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

I have kind of just sat and watched how this thread was going to go and it lived up to my expectations, Jign, and OOPs , say it all has to do with the design. Well I know for sure Starcraft doesn't pay attention to this, and a brand new Hewsescraft hasen't payed attention to it. I'm sure there are a lot of maufactures out there that are not either ( just a speculation ). I do understand that the way a boat is looked after has a great deal to do with how soon the foam will become wet!!!, because they will become wet if they are used. All these people that are buying used boats with wet foam have no idea they are not safe if the boat is swamped. Peter E stated that the law says it should stay dry for 7 years, how many do?? So if we are cramming pool noodles and pink sheet foam in till there is no room left, are we dropping the ball, at least the foam will be dry, and maybe it will not float with the top foot of the gunwal above water but only the top 2 inches, but if we just left the wet soggy mess and it swamps it would be like throwing a javalin in the bottom of the lake. My 2 cents
Glen

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

, and maybe it will not float with the top foot of the gunwal above water

This may be the standard, but it doesn't have to be what you settle for. You can make a boat with a breached hull float a lot higher than this, a lot higher... especially if you're doing your own build. The addition of large pods and/or gunwale logs can give you a much higher profile in the water.

 

[djpeters]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

(along with many other projects that have passed through iboats).

One simple question then, Why was 95%+ of my 2-part foam bone dry in a well used, 32 year old boat that leaked? You can't say or convey to others that all pour in foam boats will look like yours did (waterlogged).

Sorry if I got cranky earlier in this thread, I apologize.

FWIW, if I had the patience to cut up well fitting sheet foam and knew it wouldn't squeak, I prolly would have gone that route. My fear is, like others have said, the odd shape of other types leaves a lot of air under deck. When I said replace what it came with, I was really trying to say replace at least the AMOUNT it had, be sure you put back in the Amount you took out. I would have to assume the amount put in from the factory was enough. So, I don't really care if anyone blows up balloons and puts under deck, just make sure it's enough.

Again, Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way. I got to do a lot of boating this past weekend....feel better now.

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

DJ, I was actually referring to you as being the helpful poster. I too am sorry if you thought otherwise....

You stated your opinion & how/why you formed it. That's all good. Thanks again.... Same for Jas's point of view.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

One simple question then, Why was 95%+ of my 2-part foam bone dry in a well used, 32 year old boat that leaked?

Simple answer, most/all of your foam was on the high sides of your hull, not the center where water tends to collect. And, I'd bet yours was likely not as neglected.

Now, I recognize and agree that expanding foam can fill more space that what a noodle can (hole in the middle). The two boats with expanding foam cited in this thread are void of foam at the center to assist in drainage. I would think that a boat filled all down the middle with noodles or foam board (that drains) would more than make up for the empty space left in a foamed boat.

So yah, noodles and boards have some space/voids. Foamed boat (with none down the center) has some space/voids.

So, displacement, by comparison, a wash I suppose.

You can't say or convey to others that all pour in foam boats will look like yours did (waterlogged).

I didn't, I actually said it was probably an extreme example, post #9....

I'll also say that this boat was certainly left for dead so it's probably an extreme example of waterlogged foam. However, it brings to light the idea that once water goes sub deck it has nowhere to go.

 

[64osby]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

My .02 - To clarify, I have not rebuilt a project or put foam in a boat. I will someday.

The law as stated calls for NEW boats under X feet (20' I think) to have foam that lasts for 7 years. This law doesn't apply to used, rebuilt, or homemade boats.

Therefore it becomes a personal preference of the owner, (and any future owners.) I would liken it to motorcycle helmet laws and seat belt laws. Is the use of foam, helmets and seat belts a safety benefit? Yes, but it now falls to personal choice. Foam (in used and homemade boats) and helmets (in Michigan) are not required by law. Seat belts are but many don't use them. Personal choice.

Poured in foam in sealed compartments and for structural use seems to be the correct and proper use. This would apply to FG boats. If I ever decided to rebuild a FG I would use it. I would also place rigid foam in areas areas that would be subject to known water penetration areas.

Aluminum boats (most) are not designed to have sealed compartments and don't require foam for structure. They are designed to have the water flow to the bilge and be pumped out. It is obvious to me that poured in foam as currently installed does not allow for that event to occur. When I end up rebuilding my boat I will pack as much rigid foam (or other suitable flotation) as possible under the sole (deck).

When mine is rebuilt: Will it float, I think yes. Will it be level, maybe/maybe not. Will it add to the safety of the people on the boat in an emergency, yes. Where any laws broken, no.

Manufacture's will do what is required by law, (hopefully). My opinion is most will do the minimum to maximize profits. Could they design a boat with poured in foam that would drain properly. Yes, but the added engineering costs and manufacturing cost would not be a salable feature to 90% (or more) of buyers. They will build to the market.

So my conclusion is that all of this is a personal preference. Use materials best suited to your boat and use a much as possible with the thought if some emergency does happen; you have done the best possible job for those on your boat.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

A well done foam board installation in a fiberglass boat https://picasaweb.google.com/pacerdude/EntireDeckReplacement89Celebrity224se#5305852018165355202

 

[djpeters]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

The foam down the middle (or lack there of) is a good point. Mine did have foam in the middle, but it was just way up in front, and thats the 5% or so that was wet (about the bottom 1"). I did not put this back in, instead its the forward section of my ski locker now. But, based on my calculations from US Composites website, i'm still way over the amount needed. I don't want people thinking it's an easy decision. I think it also comes down to the particular boat. Mine is a little different than most on here. I have enough room to get all my foam outboard the center stringers and as JAS pointed out, prolly the reason it was dry. Now, I am also going to seal the seams of my deck which should keep water from seeping through. If caught in a heavy rain, it looks to me most of the water should all run to the back and down into the bilge. I stopped ALL foam 12-18" short of the transom.

So maybe we got off track a little, but, I think we can all agree that the amount, not type, is the most important factor. I do believe that in some cases, pour in foam DOES have it's place in a tin boat.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

I do believe that in some cases, pour in foam DOES have it's place in a tin boat.

I should probably clean up my language a little bit...

I think that if a fella feels good about keeping his boat dry (cover, all that business) and can keep that center section open, than sure go for the foam. Just like my buddy 64 said up there, "personal preference".

I should really probably say foam has no place in my boats. I know I'll get a ton of water in there at some point (over time too), I just know it, so, I'll plan on it.

So yah, we may all be in different camps, noodle, expanding, foam board, soap juggs, pong balls, whatever, it's your build gents, have at it

One thing I'm certain we can all agree with here on iboats (yup everyone), aluminum is the bombdigity

 

[Pmccraney]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Jas, I know the above post was probably an effort to close down this discussion gracefully... But, I can't let you end with a bomdigity (under review by man card committee as I type).

Since the pour-in manufacturers give you you the buoyancy specs, I was curious if anyone had every figured out the buoyancy of these noodles (to give you an educated guess instead of just floating your boat sans plug as suggested above)...

The below link (especially the post by dannyual777) contains an interesting discussion. It appears he is a smart dude and did the "Maths" on this...

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7270039/printable.htm

EDIT: SORRY I EVEN BROUGHT THIS UP; THIS FIELD HAS APPARENTLY BEEN PLOWED SEVERAL TIMES IN THE PAST, SO I'M NOT TRYING TO START A MATH COMPETITION....

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=387186 (refers back to some even older threads)...

remember, just read, don't write...

 

[Todd4]

Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

One thing I'm certain we can all agree with here on iboats (yup everyone), aluminum is the bombdigity

WHAT??

Oh yeah, I have a toon now - OK you're right......