Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Peter Eikenberry

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
408
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Pool noodles is a good alternative. They are actually polyethylene. Larson used them to solve a recall on boats that didn't have enough foam up under the gunwales about 10 years ago. And they come in neat colors and various sizes. But they can get expensive if you are doing the whole boat.
 

lmuss53

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
1,227
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

I took out foam of a similar construction and condition to Jason's, with two giant blocks in the stern, and replaced it with noodles with windshield washer fluid jugs to take up the big spaces. My SN has an inverted gutter type of drainage system down through the center at the bottom of the hull, and I put that back in place. If I was doing one without that I would put something down through there to create a path for water to find it's way to the bilge. Of course, noodles or foam insulation will have some small gaps between the seperate pieces which will allow for drainage.

IMAG0093-1.jpg


I found a picture where you can see the drain setup, it was wider from the CC back because it also carried wiring and hoses from that point back. Forward of the CC it was about the size of a home rain gutter. It was/is all in short sections that slide in and out at that one bulkhead with the 2 foot center.
 
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kilowatts

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
299
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Hi Guys:

Thanks for your thread Jason. As you know this is quite a touchy subject with very strong opinions both pro and con. As with most of us with "shade tree mechanic" credentials I can only speak for myself in this area. I have a 1976 glasser in remarkably good shape after many years of benign neglect by the PO. My boat has a fiberglass insert for a main deck and a fiberglass covered plywood sub-deck below. The sub deck was rotten in places. I removed it to find rotten plywood covering a pool of water submerged in which were 3 or 4 globs of expanded pour in foam! Saturated of course. I would guess that Canadian regs in the 1970's were not the same as USCG regs and my boat was built in Ontario. Luckily there was no rot so I cleaned and replaced with new material. Here's the point of this post: At that time I had to make the decision whether or not to replace the foam and with what and more importantly why!

Accordingly, I read all the posts regarding foam on this forum then read everything I could find at the library and on other sites. I even followed along with Jason and his empty detergent bottles. Ingenious! I understand the math regarding flotation and why one would like to stay afloat when swamped. However, I elected to seal up the deck with no flotation at all! I just don't believe that I have room in my sealed bilge to take enough foam to keep my boat afloat. What with 1200lbs of engine and leg, 500lbs of people, 65 gals of gasoline and then the rest of the boat of around 2500lbs I would need to fill the boat flush with foam in order to keep it afloat! I also think that probably holds true for most heavy glass boats out there. So I guess I'm not a big believer in flotation foam in my case. My friend and I however, are rebuilding his 16' runabout and we will likely use pool noodles from the dollar store for that project.

kilowatts
 

carpedium

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Messages
258
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

:facepalm:Carp, really,:facepalm:Carp

???

If you're going to call someone out, at least provide an explanation :rolleyes:

By the way, i've been meaning to comment on your dog, he was beautiful - sorry for your loss. We have two.
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Yah ez, but that foam will stay dry as a bone that way!!!!

:p:D





(sorry Dave:redface:, have a great Thrusday)
 

dozerII

Admiral
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
6,527
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

That was a good one EZ, a bit nasty for a Thursday morning, Could condone it on Monday though.
LOL
Glen
 

jbcurt00

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
24,892
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

??? If you're going to call someone out, at least provide an explanation :rolleyes: .

If I knew who the jack leg was for sure that used the pink peanuts, I'd probably post it followed by some colorful language, that iBoats would probably make look something like this:

&^*%;lka;lfg@*yt@&^$$^%$(&%(&^&^)*(&kladjhf;^*(&^(*^)(*^&^)(AL;KDJF*^&()*&*()&*(^&^;alkrgf%%$$W$##^%*(&)_(*+_)(+(*&(*^&^*UYTIYU^%R%$#$#^RTO&T%(*^YO*&_(^%$$&^%(^*kljsdfl;dsa()^(*Y)^)()^&^%&YUG&(%#
:D

Same for the jack leg that installed the bedliner. Possibly the same jack leg as the pink peanut fan.......

Unfortunately, the Jet had more then 1 hack owner in the last 3 years, actually more then 2, not including myself.

By the way, I've been meaning to comment on your dog, he was beautiful - sorry for your loss. We have two.

You've got 2 Catahoulas? Working dogs or pets? Majic was a big galoot but man, what an incredible animal. Best by wide margin. Phenomenal dog, being deaf & then diabetic never kept him down. He was a champ. Thanks for the condolences, he left us too soon. Please feel free to drop by either resto thread (maybe I should call them placeholder threads, not a lot of resto going on these days) and drop a pix of your hog dogs & they can spend sometime running the new addition ragged. She's a whirling dervish that 1:facepalm: She's now officially nick named Stinker-doodle. After that <<< I told the wife she was loosing boat naming privileges....
 

carpedium

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Messages
258
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

If I knew who the jack leg was for sure that used the pink peanuts, I'd probably post it followed by some colorful language, that iBoats would probably make look something like this:

&^*%;lka;lfg@*yt@&^$$^%$(&%(&^&^)*(&kladjhf;^*(&^(*^)(*^&^)(AL;KDJF*^&()*&*()&*(^&^;alkrgf%%$$W$##^%*(&)_(*+_)(+(*&(*^&^*UYTIYU^%R%$#$#^RTO&T%(*^YO*&_(^%$$&^%(^*kljsdfl;dsa()^(*Y)^)()^&^%&YUG&(%#
:D

Same for the jack leg that installed the bedliner. Possibly the same jack leg as the pink peanut fan.......

Unfortunately, the Jet had more then 1 hack owner in the last 3 years, actually more then 2, not including myself.

ohhhh When you wrote: "Carp, really,Carp" I thought you were speaking of me or my post since some people on here call me that due to my username.
 

djpeters

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
1,824
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Whatever....

I'll be on the water tomorrow, in a Starcraft.
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Well, at least where I sit, Dave you give as good as you get. I won't be floating for a few months yet (if I work my tail off). Have fun boating tomorrow:D

As you know this is quite a touchy subject with very strong opinions both pro and con.

Man, Jas, always causing a ruckus:facepalm:

Too right guys. This is a very touchy and debatable subject. I really like "stirring the pot" (on a pretty regular basis) but the foam talk I really do not like to engage in. As I was digging out in the Sea Nymph I suppose I felt it was important for guys to see what was under there.

It's cool to see some of the comments up there ^^^^...

I talk major trash on the foam while DJ says "I just don't see the negatives". We got glasser guys chiming in, number crunchers, science stuff, even a fella who ran flotation testing for the USCG.

I think it's great that a back yard boat builder can come in, read this stuff, and make an informed/intelligent decision about what he wants to put in his boat.

Even though we disagree on some of this, I think it's cool:)
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
47,950
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

A very interesting thread, especially considering I spent years with the USCG testing boats for flotation, and now I am restoring a 1972 Sea Ray, which means I am removing a lot of saturated foam. I also participated in a USCG sponsored research project in 2005 to determine why foam that is not supposed to absorb water, does.

Some history. Two part polyurethane "pour", "spray", "Injection" foam, is supposed to be closed cell, meaning no water absorption. So if it is absorbing water then it is not closed cell. When I first ran the test program back in the mid 80's most of the foam was made to a different formula than the foam used now, and the blowing agents (the stuff that makes it foam) were HCFCs. As most of you probably know the EPA severely limited use of HCFCs in the early 90's because the deplete the ozone layer in the atmosphere. So the foam manufacturers changed the blowing agents and the formulas for the foam. So where is this leading?

Before 1995 we used to see an occasional boat with water absorption, after 1995 it became epidemic. The foam in your boat is supposed to provide adequate flotation up to ten years (that's the law) Prior to 2000 it was 5 years. But now we see new boats with problems.

Several research projects have been done to find out why. The results have been inconclusive. But from almost 30 years of experience here is what I think is happening.

First: Pour foam is sensitive to temperature, humidity, mixing ratios and dirt. In boat factories it is almost always sprayed into a boat using a gun similar to a paint spray gun. The gun has to be calibrated for the right mix ratios and kept clean. This is usually done at the beginning of the day. Twice a day would be better. Also most builders shoot some into a paper bag or cardboard box to test the setup. If it foams they think everything is ok. This may not be so. This is what chemists call an exothermic reaction, that is it generates heat which contributes to the reaction. Too much heat and it foams too fast and breaks all the cells, so you get something that looks like foam on the outside, but if you cut into you see what looks like broken glass. Too little heat and it doesn't foam right and you get what look like cowpies and has the consistency of bread dough. Unfortunately many manufacturers buy this stuff in quantity in 55 gallon drums and store it outside or in an unheated shed or storeroom. They should bring the stuff inside and let it warm to room temperature. But even so in some northern states room temperature is 50 -55 degrees. So the stuff may be too cold. One manufacturer had to recall thousands of boats because of this.

Conversely in southern climes it may be way to warm. Plus that it is supposed to be used in a certain humidity range. In southern climes the humidity may be off the charts.

All of this affects what comes out of the gun and goes into the boat.

On top of that polyurethane is supposedly not affected by gasoline, bilge cleaners, oils etc. But some of the stuff I took out of my boat had been exposed to gasoline and it was black and brittle (But it was forty years old and proably 80% is just fine). So other things in your boat may have affected the foam.

Also boats sit outside most of the time including the winter and go through freeze and thaw cyles that affect the foam. If the foam already has water in it and it freezes and then thaws it does serious damage to the cells. Also it has been mentioned that if the boat fills with water and sits that way for long periods, it certainly isn't good for the foam.

Many years ago the USCG also did a research project on water absorption (I was the project officer) on machine made foam (board, block, or stick foam) Guess what? It had None! of these problems. The problem is, it is hard for the average boat owner to get polyurethane board foam. Construction companies use it, but it is not generally sold to the public. However Polystyrene foam is sold everywhere as insulating foam, in boards usually 2' X 8' by 2 in. It comes in various colors too, White, pink, blue.

The problem with Polystyrene (styrofoam) is it is dissolved by gasoline, oils, cleaners, etc. So if you use it, you have to protect it from this chemicals.

Of course boat manufacturers could do a better job of designing the boat for adequate drainage, or encasing the foam in fiberglass or putting it in a plastic envelope (a bag). There is manufacturer in Australia who has used bagging with great success. There are some US manufacturers who use styrofoam in sealed boxes and that works well too.

My recommendation for many years has been used board foam, and seal it up. That is what I am going to do. Also put in limber holes to drain the hull. Even if you cover your boat, and never swamp it, some water still gets in and needs to be drained away.

Great post, Oops should add as a sticky
 

Pmccraney

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
1,734
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Good thread with some great posts and informed opinions on both sides of the issue... I am now more informed, but also now borderline terrified about using pour-in foam in my boat... It seems to a necessary evil in a glass boat (for structure, buoyancy, etc...).... I like the concept of enclosing it in plastic (like seat cushions), but sounds like probably have to have sophisticated vacuum equipment to do that...

Also, has anyone ever come up with a way to use drainage channels (e.g. pvc with holes in it, french drain piping with mesh material around it, rope sections that are greased and then removed after pouring, etc...) that will not get completely blocked/filled up (and thus useless) once the foam is poured...?

I was thinking about using small sections of pvc pipe in the stringers facing the ski locker and bilge - sort of like 3-4 drain ports. Then I was going to stick a wooden dowel in them with the tip coated in plastic or vaseline (something to keep the foam from sticking to the dowel)... I know this reeks of quasi-sexual inneundo, but stop laughing and stay with me... Once the foam is poured, I just remove the wooden dowel and at least have an inch or two of "open space" close to the stringers where water can collect and exit through the pvc?

Here is a drawing of what I am thinking about...

foamandunderdeckplan.jpg


Last thing I want to do is go through all of this work and have a wet and heavy boat after one season of use with wet kiddos getting in and out of the boat...

I'll re-post on my resto thread, but thought this might be a good place since we are searching for solutions to one of the biggest problems we face (keeping our boats afloat without sinking them in the process).
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

i like foam.....

the really cool thing in a glass boat is that if the hull is penetrated via breach.....the foam seales the hole.....and you get back to the dock.

i just c&p d this to another thread.....ill add it here to.

this is how to foam a boat ...(tin or glass) with out ever having to worry about water intrusion into the foam.

i am really beginning to like foam in a boat. i mean i really like it....yes it traps water next to the wood when it gets wet....but the benefits far out weigh the down side......especially in the short term of 7-10 years. 7-10 years is the time that most boat owners needs will change, and desire a different boat.

however,,,,if you want to foam a boat and never want to worry about the foam getting wet....here is how you do it.

this is a write up i did last year in between several large boat foaming applications.



Quote Originally Posted by Willyclay View Post
oops!, we know you are working hard but we really would like to hear/see your secret method of installing foam so some of us can finish our projects with the comfort of having done it right. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!


ok guys......its raining now. so i have a minit.......the big regal is just about done....just some tidy ups and i have to install the ECU s and start the motors for the first time...lol....if the motors go...the boat will head straight to the boat show......talk about a tight time line.

.......ok....theroy....how to foam a boat properly...

at this time i should also add that i actually like foam now.....i have seen its benifets first hand.....and i think it has many more benefits than draw backs....one of the best benifets is the anti crush of foam....if the hull takes an impact and a thru hull hole develops...the foam works as a patch...kinda like a kid with his finger in a hole in a dyke plugging the hole. in the mean time....you dont even know your hull has been penetrated.

after the stringers are in and you feel you are ready to foam...
add small plastic pvc or other pipes in the hull of the boat where ever you want drainage.

i suggest to add pvc back to front just under deck height.....then "vein" pvc from the top pipe angled down towards the stringer with another pvc running beside the stringer. all pvc pipes will run to the bilge.

the top pvc should come right up to an inspection hatch some where around the drivers foot area under the dash....the same for the other side.......what you are creating is a clear passage for water (or air) to get to all critical limber holes.

for ease or foaming....you can do this in sections......just make sure that all pvc pipes will match up to create proper channels of water/air flow.

after the piping is installed....
take shrink wrap and lay it over all pipes, up the sides, and leave enough shrink to enclose the top of the area....(you are basically making a shrink wrap bag)

(shrink wrap can be scrounged out of the dumpsters of the boat dealers in the spring by the tons...lol)

throw a "mock deck" on top of the stringers with plastic tapped to the under side so the expanding foam will not stick to the under side of the mock deck.

cut holes in the mock deck and foam the area fully while weight is on the deck (the wieght will stop the foam from expanding and blowing the top off your bag.....allow the foam to fully fill your shrink wrap bag right up to the top and expand out of the holes in the top.

after the foam has fully expanded and cured....wait a full hour.....
then take off the top deck. the plastic barrier will stay with the foam and allow the mock deck/"lid" to come up easy.

then with the edges of the bag....just seal the foam with the shrink....you can use shrink tape or tuck tape.....just totally seal the top so no water can get in to the foam.

remove the foam bag from the boat.......then remove the pvc piping. the pvc will leave clear and permanant impressions in the shrink wrap.
then replace the foam bag in the exact position it was.

you will now have passages next to all the crutial areas...and limber holes through out the boat from deck height to the bottom of the stringers. all the passages are connected so that air can flow freely through the system.

install the deck as per usual.....however take special caution not to screw thru the bag.....just screw into the stringers/frames.
add inspection covers/vents in the place where the pvc was placed under the drivers/passengers feet.

what this will give you is a clear air passage throught out your boat's hull, that air can circulate thru and dry out should any water get in there....everything drains to the bilge.....and you and even can remove the inspection covers during your trip home from the water to allow air to bass through your "channels" left by the pvc impressions to dry your hull.

this will give you all the advantages of foam....including the stregnth, the anti crush......it will NEVER get water logged.....and it will also let you dry your stringers in the area where it counts most.

thats it guys....
it will take a few more hours.....cost about 100 bux more if you actually pay for the shrink wrap and tape......but your boat will be safe for ever.



cheers
oops
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

I am way out of my league talking about foam in glassers but...

In my undersized brain, anywhere you have foam meeting hull/bulkhead/stringer, there in no drainage. Water, stopped, trapped. So, if you have water going sub deck, you have water sitting. So that's why I'm thinking (again, brain, small) for a glass boat foam must me completely sealed off, totally. That way, water cannot get in and up against the foam.

For the aluminum boat, my opinion is that we need to work with the water, not against it. In other words let it go right on off the deck, run right through to the bilge, then quick, right over the side.

Knowhattamean?


Glasser Edit: Ward posted up while I was typing.
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

btw jas..

your findings and feelings on foam are not unsual.

the stuff...when wet traps water....adds weight and rots glass boats.

many many a post here has been made on foam.

lots of us have tried different substitutions like pool noodles....innertubes...ping pong balls...pop bottles.....you name it !

if i was to re foam a tinny,,,,it would be with the method above....or the rigid foam board.
 

MichaelP

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 26, 2010
Messages
1,190
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Good thread. Here is what I did with my current resto after reading many posts on iboats and others. The white stuff is polyethelene (polyplank) used by packaging companies. The blue boards aren't tight enough to keep water from running between the ribs.
 

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Buckeyedude

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
236
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Hmmmm, so what would be the ideal temperature/humidity/settings for installing noodles in my boat?


















(insert pot stirring smiley right here!) :D
 
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