Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

wilkin250r · Nov 29, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

mikeandronda, I'm not arguing facts. I'm arguing appropriate topics for 5th grade. It's also a fact that property owners would routinely beat and rape their female servants, but I don't think it's an appropriate topic for a 10yr old. So, yes. That is EXACTLY what I am saying. That the role of Christianity in history is not appropriate for 5th grade. Now, I don't think it should be ommitted completely. In fact, if you are going to present the Declaration of Independece, it should be presented in it's entirety. However, the inclusion of God and the religious beliefs of our founding fathers should not be highlighted and discussed until later years, probably around 9th grade when students are mature enough to make their own religious decisions.

jsmcc · Nov 29, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

For All, Everyone has the priveledge to believe what they want. The Declaration of Independance is a part of this country, along with everything that is in it. Without it, and those "hated" Christians, some who gave up everything, some including their lives, we may not be allowed to post materials like this today. When I was in the 5th grade (1973), I took the Declaration as more of a document claiming independence than a religious document. Like I said, everyone has the priveledge to believe what they want, but the Declaration of Independence is a fact of this country's beginning, like it or not. Don't call it history without it, good or bad.

mikeandronda · Nov 29, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Ok Wilkin what if some kid asks about it........Whats a teacher gonna say.....um sorry cant answer that go ask your parents.....Thats freakin ridiculas.......

1730V · Nov 29, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Wilkin If you think it can be an Evangelism tool. I feel sorry for you. I knew more about about the Declaration of Indepedence in the 5th grade than most college graduates do today. Government schools are doing a fine job.

I grew up in a small town where PC was yet to be invented. Call me a hick. I know what America is. Those who believe in a strong America based upon service, patriotism and pride. God Bless America. The land of the Free and the Brave. The beauty of this land is that we can supposedly disagree. It turns into a one sided argument when the courts of the land frequently rule in the favor of the opposite side with no common sense or facts entering into the decisions. Emotion is a very powerful and dangerous tool.

My friend I bid you well and hope you may see the Light. It does not hurt or cost anything. What a deal!

AK_Chappy · Nov 29, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by mikeandronda: Ok Wilkin what if some kid asks about it........Whats a teacher gonna say.....um sorry cant answer that go ask your parents.....Thats freakin ridiculas.......

Ummmmm Yes. That is the answer that should be given. I agree that the ENTIRE, WHOLE document should be taught. Religion is taught at home/church. AK Chappy

12Footer · Nov 29, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Then that is ridiculous. The word, 'God' is not foul lanquage.It's not racial. It's not evil, or even "off-color". It's appropriate for all ages. I'm in total agreement with Bassy, (our resident iboats proffessional kid intructor), who knows the difference between the word and a course in evangelical faith. There is a mighty big difference too. I think nobody here is sugjesting we offer classes on Christianity, Santoria, or Islam. But to strike all references of the factual religious faith, the biggest reason they fled England in the first place, is to rewrite history....TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. As JSMcc says, "everyone has a privelage to believe what they want"....I would add, this goes for 5th graders too.

KennyKenCan · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Boomyal, I am calm, you don't want to see me upset!! It's just that when the youth are not taught the proper history of this great country, then why even have a country? Why don't we just create an Anochary, and everyone can just do as they please? No laws! No punishments! No way to protect yourself! Absolutly no representation in the government! Etc...etc... Unfortunatly, I feel that this country is heading down some very, very dark roads in the comming years, if this type of behaviour is not stopped! Stop teaching The Declaration of Independence, then we will stop being the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, it's as simple as that!

wilkin250r · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by mikeandronda: Ok Wilkin what if some kid asks about it........Whats a teacher gonna say.....um sorry cant answer that go ask your parents.....Thats freakin ridiculas.......

I agree with Chappy. This is EXACTLY the answer that should be given. It's the very same answer that should be given when a child asks "where do babies come from?" There are certain topics that are not appropriate to discuss in 5th grade. 12-footer, you are correct. The work 'God' is not evil, neither is the word 'Intercourse' or '*****', but I don't think any of these words belong in a 5th grade classroom. Such topics should be limited to high school and above. To all, I'm not suggesting that we strike all religious reference from our historical documents. I'm not even suggesting that it cannot be displayed in a 5th grade classroom. What I am suggesting is that religion cannot be discussed in 5th grade. If you wish to discuss the role of religion in history, it needs to be done at a less impressionable age.

wilkin250r · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by 1730V: Wilkin If you think it can be an Evangelism tool. I feel sorry for you.

God is referenced in a key historical document of our great nation. If you honestly think it is absolutely, completely, and utterly impossible for somebody to use that reference as a tool for evangelism, you are sadly naive. By the way, I HAVE seen the light, I am very devout in my faith, and I keep God in my heart. But at the same time, I believe my faith does not belong in a public school any more than Buddhism or Islam. Factual knowledge and discussion is acceptable, but only at certain ages, and 10 yrs old is not that age. How would you feel if your child's 5th grade teacher was discussing the history of Halloween in a blatent attempt to evangelize and convert students to the Wiccan religion, and offered to hold a ceremony and teach them a few spells after school?

1730V · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Wilkin wrote How would you feel if your child's 5th grade teacher was discussing the history of Halloween in a blatent attempt to evangelize and convert students to the Wiccan religion, and offered to hold a ceremony and teach them a few spells after school? The trouble is Wilkin is that they can and do precisely that. Ten years old is not too young to learn about how and why this country was founded. We agree to disagree.

mikeandronda · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Yes wilken the history of halloween is mentioned in school. As for the fact that religion has played a part in how our country was created and has developed. You would be suprised to know how much a 5th grader can grasp. And your right I dont want just anybody teaching my kids about Christianity but I can not believe to act as if its not there in a document that is so importiant is a benifit to anybody except the left wing liberals who so often stand against what Christianity stands for.It being taught as it has for 200 + yrs hasnt effected our kids negativly thus far.

jtexas · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

The Declaration of Indepence does not refer at all to any organized religion, and the few references to God are completely neutral, almost generic. The 1st sentence speaks of rights given to people by "...the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God...", and the second sentence declares, "... that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...." The final two sentences make vague references to "...the Supreme Judge of the World...," and "...a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence...." While these comments certainly are consistent with Christianity, I can't imagine how any of them would be offensive to anyone. The Declaration of Independence

wilkin250r · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

I have no problem with the history of Halloween, just as I have no problem with the Declaration of Independence. If a teacher wants to explain that Halloween is based on an old Celtic new-years festival, and that Wiccan holidays coincide at the same time marking the end of seasons, that's all fine. If the teacher wants to explain the benifits of the Wiccan religion over Christianity, convert students, and offers to teach children spells, that's NOT fine. In much the same way, if a teacher wishes to present the Declaration of Independence, and exlain the rebellion, Boston Tea Party, and the rejection of British rule, that's all well and fine. But if the teacher wishes to highlight the role of religion, to say that our founding fathers were smarter because they were Christian, to blame all the ills of the world on the moral and religious decline, and imply that the world will collapse without a firm believe in Christianity, that is NOT acceptable. I have no problem with the Declaration of Independence in a 5th grade classroom, as long as the emphasis is NOT on religion. Let me ask you this, if you are ok with religious discussions with impressionable 10yr olds. What if the teacher takes the OTHER slant. What if your child is taught that our founding fathers were all Christian, and were also all slave owners, and teaches your child to equate religion with racism and bigotry? Are you still ok with the religious discussions?

mikeandronda · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

They are offensive to those who beleive there is no God. So I guess they feel that their belief system is above all others and thiers is the one that should be followed. As you put it Jtexas anybody who believes there is a supreme being would not be offended. If your offended I can only assume that your aithiest. You have that right to be what you want but by erasing any statment our for fathers made because of reference to a higher being you are commiting the very act our for fathers were trying to protect us from.

mikeandronda · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

No Wilkin I agree with what you wrote above.........sometimes the internet makes it hard to communicate ......... I took this post as saying because the Dec. of Ind. has references to God they are trying to make teachers skip that part. That would make me mad. A teacher forcing his beliefs on students at any age ( cept college) is wrong in my opinion. so maybe we are closer on this then you think. Oh and on this I qoute "What if your child is taught that our founding fathers were all Christian, and were also all slave owners, and teaches your child to equate religion with racism and bigotry? Are you still ok with the religious discussions? Yes, it would be refreshing if we could be honest about our past the good and the bad. But to teach these men were not perfect. they had faults despite being Christian. the fact is much of the foundation of our country is based on the basic Christian belief system. In history alot of things have been done in the name of Christianity but was not in fact Christian behavour.

jtexas · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

But the references to God have historical significance. Great Britain was certainly a "religious" nation, believing that its king derived his power from God. And didn't most if not all European monarchies believe similarly. The authors of the D of I, while not wishing to sponsor a "state religion," nevertheless wanted the support of as much of the world as they could get. Makes sense to me. I don't doubt that our founding fathers were Christian, as am I, but I have to believe that they wished to design a government that was independent of religion. In fact they declared the "Foundation" of a government to be those "principles" deemed by the people "...most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..." rather than any particular set of religious values. So, I guess I might object to a public school teacher trying to make a religious document out of the D of I. I guess if an athiest was lookin for a fight he could find an excuse to be offended. Let's hope reasonable heads prevail.

wajajaja · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

this is a Great thread, I "ask jeeves" web site "Were the Founding Fathers Christian? " and this is what i found, Read,Think and decide for your self. http://www.yosemitedems.net/FFathers.html

12Footer · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

And the revisionism begins. It's just like our parents warned us it would start out as. Attacks on the facts, removing from the ciriculum, the history books, and then the courts. Wajajaja, I got this far... "Were the Founding Fathers Christian? A Detailed Look at the Facts By Les Marsden Les Marsden from the Mariposa Democratic Club wrote this piece in response to an e-mail he received from a friend which tried to promulgate the premise that our founding fathers were Christians. The e-mail ended with this:" Les Marsden is a card-carrying member of the CPUSA. Well,They don't carry cards, but they pay thier dues.Just click on his name ifn ya don't believe me. Unfortuntately, I am still an American. I know what I have been taught. I only hope my children's kids are taught the same thing. History is not something that should bend with the political winds. The decietful trick Mr Marsden uses here, is the what I like to call the "FOUNDING FATHERS RAP". The founding fathers were NOT Pilgrims, but came after them. Like most immigrants, they found religious freedom here. They ran with the ball, and God Bless them. But Mr Marsden would have us seperate George Washington from Samuel Adams, and John Hancock from John Smith ect. This is not necsessary. The facts are that the pilgrims left terra firma in England before they had 747's, and came here in leaky boats made of wood,powered by primative sail, to ESCAPE religious tyrany, not to hunt bigger grouper. I do not care what sect they were. I could care less if they were Islamic. They came here to be free to worship and live thier own version of what they believed, instead of that of the king. King Les will not prevail here. That's what this entire hubub thread is about. The revisionists are hard at work, and have been since the late 50's. They have succeeded in some areas too. But they haven't put much of a dent in religious freedom yet. They keep trying, but when your whole life centers-around your faith, faith is not "reviseable". I don't care if your God is Grouper, and your church is 20miles offshore (which is a pretty good start for anyone looking for him, so go out there and start communicating with him). It's not what you think God is, but whether or not he offends your niegbor? I guess I can relate to this fear of God, by my primieval, instinctual ,and complete fear of Satan. But to not allow my kids to know that fear, and fail to give them all options, is to morally cripple thier developement. I know this cannot (and should not) be done in a public educational setting. That is what bible study is for. But to delete all reference of what drove the pilgrims ( a religious sect) to do what they did. And yes I know, not all of them.And asfter them,less.... Sammy Adams was NOT a christian--Les was right about that. Sammy was an "insurgient". If you want the true timeline,click on John Smith. Does ANYONE really belive that the "Declaration Of Independence" should be banned from public grade-school ciriculum? SHOOT!! I just remembered... The FFWC issued a "GROUPER BAN"..What's next?

Dunaruna · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

First time I've seen and read it. Can I ask if the link that jtexas posted is the complete document? Totally unoffensive to non religious person like myself, in fact, we've still got issues with the motherland, can we borrow it for a while

Aldo

12Footer · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

We still have issues with then, too, Aldo. But thank God for Tony Blair, and Margret Thatcher, and Winston Churchill before them.

Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Chief Petty Officer

Cadet

Lieutenant Commander

Chief Petty Officer

Lieutenant

Fleet Admiral

Commander

Chief Petty Officer

Chief Petty Officer

Chief Petty Officer

Lieutenant Commander

Fleet Admiral

Chief Petty Officer

Lieutenant Commander

Lieutenant Commander

Fleet Admiral

Chief Petty Officer

Fleet Admiral

Admiral

Fleet Admiral