Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /><br /><br />I'm a little sick of this thread too, yet,I feel compelled to set the record straight,due to the damage caused by someone being misled (lied to) by the wrong "expert", as it pretains to Christianity, every other time I read another post here.

Wow this thread really has a life of its own!<br /><br />12, most of what I know about christianity comes from being raised in a christian family, going to church, reading the bible, studying bible history, and an adult lifetime of talking to christians of all stripes and even (gasp!) listening to christian radio, which I do frequently while driving. If I am being "misled" about christianity, it is christians themselves who are doing the misleading. <br /><br />It is christians who have told me time and again that we need to get the government to write parts of the christian bible into the law, and enforce its tenets. <br /><br />It was christians (from my family!) who exposed me to a lifetime of racial slurs and hatred of gays. And no, they were "hating the sin, but loving the sinner" either, whatever the heck THAT is supposed to mean. It was just plain old all around hate. <br /><br />It was christians from my relatives' church who tried to deny me entry when I showed up (invited!) for a thinksgiving dinner at their church, based on the way I looked ( What Would Jesus Have Done?). <br /><br />It was christians who threw a friend of mine (also a christian, VERY devout) out of their christian home where he lived and paid rent, onto the street because he played the guitar and sang too much, evidence that he was "too worldly". I took him in at my tiny, two-room non-christian house for free until he found his way again. I was 20 years old, and working as a dishwasher.<br /><br />It has been christians who have repeatedly and from all corners of the faith have told me in no uncertain terms that christianity was THE ONLY WAY to appraoch god, and that all other faiths were hollow and doomed at best, and deliberately evil at worst. (no buddhist or hindu or even muslim for that matter has ever personally told me that). <br /><br />It was a christian (you) who told me on this thread that you were happy to hear that it was becoming more difficult to be a non-christian in america. <br /><br />No socialist rag could have ever taught me so much about christianity as christians them selves have!<br /><br />So while I love jesus and all he did, I haven't much patience or use for those who like to call themselves "christians". In my experience, they are no more likely to live a healthy, spirtual, loving life, or offer a good example of following christ's teachings, for that matter, than anyone else. And I sure don't want them using the law to enforce their beliefs, or evangelizing to my children when I send them to public school. Public school is NOT the place to learn about God, either pro or con. That is for home or church.<br /><br />Note that the whackos who instituted the Taliban government were most likely in the minority fringe of islam as well. That didn't stop their rise to power.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Woodrat it sounds if your family are extreemist that in my opinion represent my God as much as the muslems do. Im sorry you had to put up with backwards religious legalistic people but dont paint us all like that. I have played guitar in rock bands for over 18 yrs, I have hair to the middle of my back I have known gay people that will be going to heaven but I also believe there is only one way into heaven....through Christ. I do believe being gay is a sin, along with lieing , being lustful and all the rest Im sure you heard of. Wether u believe it or not there are people who hate sin but not the sinner ( thank God cuz I tell you what I have sinned alot in my life) The good book has been tweaked to fit peoples beliefs since it was writen but it does not mean Christianity is flawed just Christian often times are.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

All that to explain your repulsion for God and those that follow him is irrelevant,Woodrat. The topic relates to censorship of historic documents ,and the attempts to remove the word "God" from American History. The topic is also about the constant, in-yer-face, sometimes court-ordered revisionism in our public schools.<br /><br />You and I have allready explained our personal beliefs. <br />I am more concerned now with what they want to censor in the classroom, and what they (ACLLU and the rest of of them)_ are introducing in place of what they censor. It is reminiscent of the soviet purges of thier educational system and subsequent book-burnings.<br />Because this is America, we have sat back and watched our courts make ruling-after ruling against free speech in the classroom, in the interest of religious and ethnic tolerance. Well, there comes a point where those "offended" by the word "God" go too far. Thet have gone way too far. They have offended me. They have usurped my rights and freedoms. Let's just see how THIS round pans-out, shall we?<br />I hope it sends a clear message not to tread on us anymore. But I'll be praying before hoping.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

12<br /><br />I was responding to your assertion that anyone with negative views of christianity have been "misled" by "liars". <br /><br />My negative views of christianity came directly from my real life experiences with many christians. And the idea that rejecting the institution of the christian church equals rejection of God is nonsense, and just points back at the arrogant christian assertion that their path is the only way. <br /><br />My experiences with christianity are what lead me to say "keep your religion out of the public schools!" It belongs at church, at home and in your heart, but not in a fifth grade classroom. D of I, yes; evangelizing, NO!

 

[1730V]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

woodrat<br /><br />It seems to me that you are the one painting with a very broad brush. The last time I checked Christians are people too. People can call themselves anything they want. Unless they walk the walk they are not Christians. Sorry about your experiences. I was kicked out of the Lutheran church for referencing the Bible in conversations with elders. Religion is man made for the control of man. Religion can and is taken to extremes by many. That is what our forefathers wanted to get away from. A controlling church intertwined with the governemnt. <br />Faith is a personal relationship with ones creator.<br />This thread relates to the Declaration of Indepencence being referenced or taught in a fifth grade class. If that is not allowed what is next? The Constitution? Our money? You name it. It is a slippery slope. <br />Our forefathers wrote those references into the documents for a reason. They believed in them. Saying they are not there or ignoring them is revisionism. Plain and simple.<br />Shall we rewrite every document that references God?<br />I'll bet the school can talk about and promote the Koran all they want. I call that discrimination.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> 12<br /><br />I was responding to your assertion that anyone with negative views of christianity have been "misled" by "liars".

<br />More deciet? I never EVER said that, nor does that line of bilge relect my feeling of non-Christians. They are my views of those who assault Chritianity and all references of God in anything "public". If you plan to quote me, quote ME. don'r decieve on top of lies.<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> <br />My negative views of christianity came directly from my real life experiences with many christians. And the idea that rejecting the institution of the christian church equals rejection of God is nonsense, and just points back at the arrogant christian assertion that their path is the only way. <br />

<br /><br />For the final time---I do not care about your "views of Christianity". I only care that my rights not be ripped-away to apease you, and that my grandkids can go to a public school and learn American history INCLUSIVELY....Christian influences,tyrany, KKK, Masons and all.<br />If you cannot provide for thier intelectual protection from those who would REVISE history to remove any influence from Christians or any other influence whatsoever, leave. or not. But you will not have a free ride this time. You know how to carry signs and protest this or that. Best print them up. Because I can promise a real uphill road this round.<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> <br />My experiences with christianity are what lead me to say "keep your religion out of the public schools!" It belongs at church, at home and in your heart, but not in a fifth grade classroom. D of I, yes; evangelizing, NO!

I'm with you on the "evangelising", and NOBODY who has contributed to this thread has sugjested we start teaching the bible in schools! not one!<br /> Even an Evangelical Christian like me knows public schools are not the place to teach religion. Besides, if we were to have "Christianity101", we would need "Islam101", and I won't hold still for that,nor should you.<br /><br />HOWEVER, the Declaration of Independece will be altered or banned in public schools over my dead body.

 

[Elmer Fudge]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

If there is a heaven, and if that's where the doers of good deeds go after life on earth, then that's where my dogs are gonna go

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

12;<br /><br />THIS is exactly what you said: <br /><br />"I'm a little sick of this thread too, yet,I feel compelled to set the record straight,due to the damage caused by someone being misled (lied to) by the wrong "expert", as it pretains to Christianity, every other time I read another post here."<br /><br />happy now? Just like I quoted it before. See the part where you say "lied to"? That would imply that someone is a "liar". And I never said that those were your views of non-christians, but that those who hold negative views of christianity have been misled or lied to. That is almost exaclty what you said.<br /><br />And now you are calling ME a liar! with no reference of course to what exactly I've lied about...<br /><br />Funny that you're getting so worked up. never in this entire thread have I disagreed with you about the fact that the declaration of independence belongs in school. Not once!<br /><br />However, since you christians are comprised of the same kind of fallible humans as the rest of us un-saved masses, it should be obvious that I don't want fallible and politically motivated and imperfect HUMAN christians deciding that certain select parts of their faith be foisted off on the rest of us, by coercion through the law, or by evangelizing to a captive audience of schoolchildren. That needn't "rip away" your rights to worship and believe how you please, UNLESS what you please is to write your religion into law. To me and many others, that starts to tread into the territory of a government sponsored religion, which the constitution does proscribe against.<br /><br />THAT is what I am against. And I gather from talking to many self -described christians that THAT is exactly what many of them would love to do. And all your riled up "bilge" hasn't convinced me one bit that you would not join in such an effort if it were to come to that.<br /><br />1730V,<br /><br />as far as painting with a broad brush, I am merely going by what the self-described christians I have known and listened to have shown themselves to be made of. I know that there are christians out there who actually follow christ's teachings and are non-judgemental, humble and tolerant. Far more of the ones that I have met though, have been the opposite. Self-righteous, arrogant, intolerant, bigoted and filled with the urge to control and rule over others. Maybe I'm just meeting the wrong ones? I don't know, that's for you christians to work out. If you don't want the bad PR, then maybe you should rein in the fanatics and the control freaks among your ranks. Maybe the meek and humble christians (you know, the ones that will inherit the earth) should bring themselves more to the forefront of your movement and show the rest of us what christianity CAN be made of.

 

[1730V]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Woodrat<br /><br />Why should we reign in the fanatical types in our belief system? Everyone has the right to believe the way they believe. I do not see the left reigning in the fanatical edges of that movement.<br />How can we come to the forefront of our movement? Everytime we try we are shouted down and not allowed to hold peaceful gatherings on public property. It is is just as much mine as anyone elses. If it is not please explain how it is not. Amd forget the so called seperation of church and state. That is a lie that has been promoted and believed. What official document contains that phrase? Who is discriminating against who.<br />Who said the teacher was evangelizing? We do not know that. He merely offered the Declaration as a historical and factual document. Just because it contains the word God he was ordered not to use it. The word God in a document is stretching the evangilism argument a great deal.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Woodrat I believe Christians are often times hurt be negitive press like everybody else.......I would be willing to bet 9 out of 10 Christians arnt like the ones you bring up but the world doesnt make news out of those who are peacful and good. On our news the other night they showed some people who profess to being Christian ( some church here in Mo.) that were pickiting because of a Gay student or some nonsense ....made the 9:00, 10:00 and the early morning news. What do you think non-believers think about all of us Christians in this area. Probably the same thing you do....its sad cuz I cant think of person I know that feels that wat. Its always the idoits that are noticed.....Back to the original reason for this post 12 footer is saying that evangilism doesnt belong in schools but if we let those who hate Christians get thier way even a little in yrs to come it will snowball. I believe the recent events of our country show how it may start with something like the ten comandments being removed from public lands to eventally baning crosses on churches cuz they can be seen. It is a bit scary for those of us who profess our beliefs that at some time in our lives or our childrens we may become outlaws and thruth be told its what the Bible says will happen.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Found a copy of the teacher's actual complaint filed with the U.S. District Court in San Jose. The 1st 3 pages are just legal mumbojumbo, the real stuff begins on page 4. Unfortunately the actual handouts themselves are not included here.<br /><br />Apparently, last spring one student's parents complained to the principal about this teacher's use of President Bush's Proclamation on the National Day of Prayer as an example of a Presidential Proclamation. That's when the principal began screening his lesson plans. Prior to that he used basically the same materials without complaint or censorship. Keep in mind this is just one side of the story. Seems reasonable enough, though.<br /><br />from page 6:<br />"Mr. Williams intended to distribute these handouts to explain 1) the role of religion at the nation's founding; 2) the religious references in several founding documents including the Declaration of Independence; and 3) the reasons for the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment."<br /><br />I have several friends who teach in public schools, and my wife is president of our Junior High PTA, and what I hear is that school administrators can be very sensitive to parental complaints, almost sometimes to the point of paranoia.<br /><br />I'm thinking that's the root of the problem; it's not some power-crazed commie pinko anti-christ libral elitist trying to re-write history or suppress Christianity. It's the school boards giving too much weight to a single goof-ball parent instead of supporting the educators! Just my opinion.

 

[JB]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Yup. I am sick of this thread.<br /><br />Bottom line? The Declaration of Independence is NOT banned at that school, or at any school.<br /><br />Read the cotton pickin' post!!<br /><br />Evangelism, in any disguise, is banned from that school.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

But Jtexas thats where it starts..... one persons belief wiping out all other others. this is not what America is suposed to be about.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

JB are you saying he was trying to evangilase through his including th D. of I.? If not this thread had merit being he lost his job over it. If you are saying he was from what I read your wrong.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by 1730V:<br /> Amd forget the so called seperation of church and state. That is a lie that has been promoted and believed. What official document contains that phrase?

"Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion."<br />--First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

 

[1730V]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

From the original story. Post number one.<br /><br /> Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity.<br />I read the official complaint. It looks like a witch hunt to me.<br /> <br /><br />JB<br /><br />Seems like it is banned to me.

 

[1730V]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

jtexas<br /><br />You proved my point. The phrase Seperation of Church and State does not exist in an official document.<br />Outlawing religion is not what the founders had in mind. They did not want a state approved and promoted religion like the religion they left in England.<br />The references to God in our founding documents does not establish a religion. Many religions have a God. Many call the diety by different names. It seems those are OK.<br />Change all the founding documents to read Allah and everyone will be ecstatic.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

M&A, I agree it could be the start of something tragic; hopefully this slope will not be that slippery. After all, the Supreme Court upheld "under God" in the pledge of allegiance.<br /><br />But note that he hasn't lost his job; he's just suing to force the school to allow him to use his materials in class.

 

[1730V]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

It is truly a sad day when a teacher has to sue to use official government documents in the instruction of social studies. Now who is socially engineering what?

 

[jtexas]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by 1730V:<br /> <br />You proved my point. The phrase Seperation of Church and State does not exist in an official document.<br />Outlawing religion is not what the founders had in mind. They did not want a state approved and promoted religion like the religion they left in England.<br />The references to God in our founding documents does not establish a religion. Many religions have a God. Many call the diety by different names. It seems those are OK.<br />Change all the founding documents to read Allah and everyone will be ecstatic.

Agreed (I'm reading some sarcasm into your last sentence, right?). <br /><br />Interestingly, the word "allah" is a generic term meaning "god," used by Muslims in the same way Christians & Jews use the term "God." In fact Muslims worship the same omnipotent, all-powerful Creator as Jews and Christians, and call Him by the same name (when they use His name). They just follow their own prophet, Mohammed, instead of Moses et.al., who of course, for Christians, were superceded by Jesus.