Americans please.

SCO · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

I'll bite for a little while. You think we nuked them when they were down and defeated? Nah . They were going to take as many of us with them as they could.

zorro1 · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

Original Nationality? My mother is a decendant of a French Theatre entree and my father was a PTO in the Royal Engineers. In 1964 privates , officers and CO's both English and American took pot shots at the local bedouin tribes in the arab quarters as target practice. These were people that lived in the mountains that were self supportive. They held limited arms and were complete socialites towards the troups. My father was A PTO, Sapper and could cook bringing up 10 sisters and brothers. It was rule within the camp that any food un-eaten was buried. Fox-hole like. My father would take any un-eaten food into the mountains by Land Rover and give it to these people. I every week recieve e-mails of thanks of his exploites from his comrades and two from ejypt. What is the morale? It is this. It is he who passes the knowledge who knows. Not he who thinks he knows. AKA H.Nelson. So what is the moral of this?

zorro1 · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

SCO: I can't argue with that. I understand.

SCO · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

See, we Americans are passing knowledge too. Those who think they can defeat us are the ones who don't know. You think this is about profit to us. You think you know but you don't. Human history is chock full of atrocity by all. What's your point. Also, what do you mean when you say you understand above. Are you putting yourself in the Japanese shoes? You think they had conscience?

plywoody · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

First of all, you cannot compare in any way the Japanese situation or the Hitler Germany situation with the current Iraq situation. Japan directly attacked us. Hitler launched an imperialistic campaign to expand his borders. the previous Iraq war was a response to Iraq invading Kuwait. None of those things apply now. And frankly I would like to see Bush at least *pretend* that we want the UN inspectors to be successful and avoid war. I firmly believe this is all about oil. On CNBC tonite, there was a republican administration oil expert that was suggesting that this country needed $15-$18 a barrel oil, and he was complaining that OPEC was meeting today to try to stabilize production and pricing at $25-$28 a barrel. His solution? Get the US Army to control the Iraqi oil fields, and when OPEC wants to cut production, flood the market with Iraqi oil and keep the price down--thus destroying OPEC's control. And frankly, I think this administration is driven by Karl Rove, and politics, and they remember the lesson of Bush's father, in that after a successful military campaign, popularity soars. We have already seen this after Afghanistan, but popularity drops over time. Especially when there are so many unanswered questions re Afghanistan and the war on terror generally. They need a well timed wildly successful military campaign in Iraq to solidify the 2004 election results.

Skinnywater · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

>But I am very curious as to why "the rest of the >world" demands any form of "proof" or >"Compliance" from the US? >Anyone? 12Footer, I was answering your question. >If a 12year-old 12Footer was standing in the >school yard,laughing at a crying classmate, and >the crying classmate walked over to him,and >kicked him in the treasure chest without any >outward sign, than as soon a 12Footer recovered >enough, the crying chile would be beyond >tears.It would mean total war. Would 12 year old 12Footer expect all the other classmates to come to his side? Some of them would say you had it comming. At some point the Principal would have to ask why you were laughing at the crying student. >When the US was attacked on December 7th, 1941, >we were not giving any confort to Japan. We had >an emargo on them in retaliation for >attrocities in China. They kicked us hard that >day, much as these pisants have 2001. Both were >suprise attacks. Both ememies had "bones to pick >" with the U.S.A. We were far from being the worlds police. We were trying hard to mind our own business before then. >But every country looks upon Amercica with >jealousy, disgust, hatered for our mannerisms, >religigious and political freedom,and call us >SPOILED! Yes, my point. There was once a time when our Country, Government, and people were the apple in the whole worlds eye.

Skinnywater · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

>skinny, >I looks like you don't have any kids, so sorry >it's >really not a fair question. at least that's the >way I read your post? mellowyellow, your assumption is incorrect. I was only sticking to the topic. >the point is more about what is the most >effective >way of stopping a bully. they only pick on kids >who can't or choose not to stand up. I don't believe Asama thought we wouldn't respond. Do you think the Palistinians think Isreal won't after each incident? >I for one am for standing up! >expect my buddies to have my back, but if they >don't I'll probably still deal with it directly. >that's just the way I am... and it's got my nose >broke in the past, but that hasn't changed how I >deal with such issues. Was it by chance your nose was where it didn't belong? At some point your buddies are going to have to ask what your problem is. >this guy used poisoned gas on his own people! The United States and Europe SUPPLIED him with the means! We armed him. >too much brains and not enough ...... You go get'em tiger.

meant2be · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

You have to say one thing. Everyone has an opinion. Here goes mine. War is caused by only a few things. 1. Politics 2. Religion 3. Real Estate 4. Resources With our ever increasing thirst for oil and its' by-products we have gone into a region (Middle East) and set up camp, where we could, in order to keep an eye on the flow. I find it funny that the Jewish population in the U.S. is under 8%, but nearly 70% of our news is about Israel (one of those lookouts we need?). The Saudis have played two faced with us, but we find a way of glossing it over (could it be because of our bases?). Do you think if it weren't for the amount of oil in that region, the U.S. would be poking its' nose into there politics? I don't think many Americans realize the billions of dollars we dumped into the countries or politics which helps us achieve only one thing. An oppotunity to keep an eye on the gas pump. I believe that there are many things in our society that bother many nations and religions in the Middle East. I think the straw that broke the camels back is that we began to pick sides in conflicts that are hundreds if not thousands of years older than the U.S. I do not support Saddam in any way, but what do you think he was after when he invaded Kuwait. It wasn't for the beaches. I think many factions in the Middle East see our presence for what it is and they're mad as h***. If we were really there to stop injustice in the world, then what about China or the African continent. Oh, I forgot, nothing worth the money or effort. LIKE OIL!

JB · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

There is one way I know that is surer to offend than to call names. That is to make derogatory statements about someone elses motives or thoughts. Our thoughts and motives are the most private part of our person. We generally react with annoyance or anger if someone says, "You think. . . " or "You did that because. . . " We are getting too close to that.

Let's not do that to each other, or to those who aren't here to defend themselves. It would almost certainly start a war. Thanks.

rogerwa · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

We are dealing with separate but linked issues here. The first is the 9-11 attacks and the subsequent anti-terror campaign. We are fully justified in the actions taken thus far and in the on-going campaign to capture and kill all terrorists who have pledged death to America. We don't need to apologize for or justify this. It is our national security at stake and in the absence of any other nation, it has to be our mission to continue. All anti-war/violence liberals who disagree, and would be happy with the constant death of our citizens on our soil, obviously don't know that the language these terrorists speak is violence. Diplomacy simply does not exist in their world or is a sign of weakness. I thank god we have a President who has the balls to lead from position of strength and not weakness. Secondly, Iraq was removed from Kuwait via UN mandate. Conditions of cease fire were formed and have since been laughed at by Saddam. UN diplomacy obviously has not worked. I ask all the armchair quarterbacks out there what, in their infinite wisdom, shall the world community do to resolve this issue. I remind you, the terms Iraq is to follow are UN terms, not US terms. Maybe we should just give up and leave and send the message to the next despot that it is OK to **** on the UN and spit on the US (and other member countries for that matter). The situation in Iraq is not solely about oil. One would be a fool to claim that oil is not of national interest to the US. However, Saddam clearly would make a deal with the devil to secure himself in the annals of history. WE know the devil walks the sands of the desert, and we cannot afford this risk. I will also tell you that I am embarassed by some of my arrogant countrymen that suggest we turn the place into a parking lot. By nature I am a lover not a fighter, but I will fight to preserve my self respect and to protect my family.

mellowyellow · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

it's good to see we can post our opinions on this topic without getting personal. I may not agree with your stance, but you certainly have a right to it! reply to skinny: you said<mellowyellow, your assumption is incorrect. I was only sticking to the topic.> sorry, when you said my son "would" instead of "is" I got the wrong Idea. I do however feel you would have one confused son if you prompted him to fight back, then punished him for it. as for the bully question, I was referring to Sadaam. bin laden is just a rich, spoiled kid who has lost touch with reality IMHO. as for sticking my nose where it don't belong, it isn't true. I have never started a fight in my life, but I have finished a few. the point I was trying to make is that it is sometimes necc. to make a stand whether you like it or not. also, I don't think the USA supplied Sadaam with poison gas. lastly, the "brains" comment was not directed towards you. you can talk and negotiate only with someone who is reasonable. some people are not reasonable and it may be necc. to defend yourself with force. regards, M.Y.

sony2001 · Dec 12, 2002

Re: Americans please.

djohns 19: I'm in Montreal and nothing has surfaced about bodyshields going to Iraq in either language, french or english. The french press is less restrained in hot topics. Probably propaganda, lets bash Canadians sort of thing.

SCO · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

There is no doubt that the flow of oil is in the national interest. Linking profit to the reason we are going in there is the goofy part. We'd smoke his cigarettes after were done allright, id hope, but maybe not to prove oil's not the motive. Can you imagine the US not going to war when attacked on her own soil? What kind of future would a country like that have...extinction maybe? Dont you people realize the threat we face? The rules have changed here, there was no rising sun painted on the planes that were used in the attack. We cant be handcuffed into inaction because the attackers werent identifiable as being military representatives of a country. If we are unable to act when we know who is behind it because of a bunch of pc idiots, then theyve got us. Fortunately thats not the case.

SCO · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

I do think the flow of oil was the main reason for the first gulf action. This time its different. Check out the movie Road Warrior or Waterworld to see why oil is important.

mattttt25 · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

after reading recent posts, i feel i have to go back and expound on my earlier comments. sorry if i bore anyone. again, our national and military strategy is guided and constrained by 5 catagories. so what do we know? 1. purpose to be attained: this is a tricky one and open for argument. we want stability in the area. we think that can only happen with saddam gone. oil comes in to play, but is not the only driving force. 2. available force: we know what we have, and probably a good idea of iraq. we think they have wmd, and want to eliminate that. 3. domestic values: again, we cherish our liberties, freedom, security, and safety. but we also don't want war. need to balance. 4. international environment: stability in the area plays again. we must look at how war will affect our relationships with our allies, neutrals, and enemies. we need to think about iraq's neighbors and how war could affect them. 5. how the enemy will act and react: an important one that some forget. will iraq just lay down and surrender? attempt to rally support from its allies? unleash every weapon they have on neighbors? i bring all these points up to prove that its not just one item (oil) that drives this war, or any war for that matter. there are numerous factors to consider and explore. our top officials are doing this right now, trust me. we call them idiots all the time, but in large part, they are very intelligent people that want the best for our country. well, i'll get off the podium for a bit. take care-

rogerwa · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

Another pet peave. I just read that Sean Penn is visiting Baghdad to see for himself what is at issue here. He also sent an open letter to President Bush to condemn his current actions. Who the hell cares what Sean or any other entertainer thinks. It seems to me that Sean got his start in Fast Times and somehow now we should take him as a statesman. That's crap. Celebrities shoud stick to what they are good at: Singing, Dancing, and acting like other people. BTW, Alex Baldwin, I'm still waiting for you to leave the country.

DJ · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

sony2001, I'm not Canada bashing. We have enough "nuts" of our own. Here's the article from the "Times on Line" Dec. 9. World News December 09, 2002 Canadian women enlist in 'army' of volunteer human shields From Richard Cleroux in Ottawa and Roland Watson in Washington TWO Canadian women have left for Baghdad, the latest recruits for an army of human shields intent on stopping conflict. Irene Vandas, 32, a Vancouver nurse, and Jennifer Ziemann, 30, are members of a Canadian anti-war group called Voices in the Wilderness who intend to use their presence to discourage a US bombing campaign. Four Canadians are already in Iraq as human shields, working in hospitals, along with about 40 other Western volunteers. A dozen more Canadians are expected to join them before Christmas. The latest recruits boarded a flight that left on Friday for Amman, from where they plan to drive into Iraq this week. “It will be a powerful experience,” Ms Vandas said before she left. “I’m not scared.” The pair plan to live with Iraqi families and stay until Christmas. The Foreign Affairs Department in Ottawa said that the Canadian Government could not forbid anyone from going to Iraq, although the country was on a government list for tourists to avoid. The Canadian Government has declined to endorse a war until the weapons inspectors have reported back and the UN Security Council has given the US its stamp of approval to attack Iraq. The group sending the volunteers has set up a website, www.iraqpeaceteam.org, complaining of what it says is the scarcity of news coverage about the anti-war movement, as a nationwide anti-war demonstration is planned in the US. Hundreds of groups plan to come together for a day of civil disobedience. The events in towns and cities across the US have been planned for tomorrow, International Human Rights Day. It is also the day that Jimmy Carter, the former US President and a critic of war with Iraq, will receive his Nobel Peace Prize, awarded in part for his stance against President Bush’s confrontation with Saddam Hussein. Domestic US opposition to war has so far been limited, dwarfed by the often violent demonstrations of the Vietnam era. Protesters are, however, promising a large turnout, particularly in Washington and other big cities, from a range of interest groups, including churches, unions and veterans groups. The Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, which represent 115 million Americans between them, have been increasingly vocal in their opposition to war. Republican strategists are concerned at the anti-war feeling in blue-collar workplaces and organised labour. John Sweeney, president of the AFL-CIO, one of the biggest unions in the country with 13 million members, and once courted by President Bush, has come out against the war.

12Footer · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

Skinny, >"Yes, my point. There was once a time when our Country, Government, and people were the apple in the whole worlds eye." Skinny, We still are, and that's what they don't like about us. Some think of us as spoiled brats,who get what we want,when we want it, or we'll throw a hissy-fit. To this group, I say "Nunya". There are some countries who think we have no concern for them or the rest of the world. To them, I say," We do have priorities. And the order is ours to make." Then there are the tin-horn,third world dictatorships, that rule with an iron hand and a band of militant thugs. They think of the U.S. as a meddling hornet,in need of swatting (if only they had an effective fly-swatter). But they don't wish to get stung. To them, I say "Keep saying 'good morning'. You mess with hornets,you get stung". I have had my nose and collerbone broken in the schoolyard too. There's one thing about a fist fight in the school yard. It sure shows you who your friends are and are not! I remember the one time I was on the "bully" end of the thing, as I picked on this one kid verbally,at every opertunity.I think the whole dislike of this kid started in the lunchroom,but really forget what he said or did that instantly pushed my buttons. But nevertheless, the buttons were pushed, and I ragged on this kid relentlessly. I'm getting long-winded, so to sum-up....We had it out. The fight ended in a draw, both of us just kinda threw our hands up in pain and exhaustion, and said "that's enough". We are good friends to this day.He is my longest-time, and best bud. He lives in Tampa, and we talk often,both online and phone. The moral of the story is, My friends were not my friends,and my enemy became an inseperable ally. So as I have done, so should my country." Stand up." "Let's Roll." " You are iether with us,or against us." "This will not be easy or quick. It will take the resolve of every American." None of those were my words, but I believe in them,and support our military in every way I can.

Fishbusters · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

Djohns they are not human shields because if they went over to deter bombing then they actually decided to put themselves in harms way and I feel we should count them as traitors or turncoats if they are still there when the shooting starts. This is assuming that Canada supports us if not screw it bomb them anyway and if Canada complains remind them who their neighbor is and that that long border is hard to defend.

Skinnywater · Dec 13, 2002

Re: Americans please.

Quote mercey: >Its all the responses on this forum. What >journalism says means didley squat. Its by this >method I/we can get our answers. Read all the >posts one by one. As you read them you all >reason with eachother. Excellent, I respect all the opinions on this topic and have enjoyed participating. mercey, can you tell us what you've learned from this topic you started?

Americans please.

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