Americans please.

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88spl

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Mar 18, 2002
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Re: Americans please.

>Do you think you could win this terrorist thing without Europe?<<br /><br />I don't think its a matter of winning anything, it just saves lives. Yes, we must work together today as in the past. Why must we wait?.....when lives are lost by great numbers befor we take action??? We as a nation must back our leaders to make the proper calls to action, and now is the time for action....get the guck outta the way.....with us or without, we kick arse for freedom.
 

Tacklewasher

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Re: Americans please.

djohns19<br />"By the way,<br /><br />What's with the Canadians sending "body shields" for the Iraqi's, in the event of a war??"<br /><br />WTF?<br /><br />I know nothing of this but I would have to rack it up to our own form of whackos. I would also like to see a reference to this as I have not heard this before.<br /><br />I'm impressed with Bush's attempts to get other countries on board (in light of the total uselessness of the UN) to make it not a US fight. I know Canada has not much more than a token millitary (our friends to the south can protect us so we can affor to spend a BILLION on gun control) but, for the most part, we will send them gladly. Yes, we will have protests over it and I think that is fair and those truly opposed should have their forum, but we will be fighting side by side as needed.<br /><br />Remember, a lot of the world lost citizens on 9/11.
 

mattttt25

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Re: Americans please.

in the strategy and policy course taught by the naval war college, the "pentagon of war" is stressed. simply put, strategy will always be constrained by:<br />1. purpose to be attained.<br />2. available force<br />3. domestic values<br />4. international environment<br />5. how the enemy will act and react<br />its interesting to think about each of these as they relate to the current iraqi situation. think from the u.s. side as well as iraq's and you'll understand better how decisions are made in our government and military today. our obvious obstacles right now are #3 aqnd #4, which is why you see bush working so hard to sway our people and the rest of the world.
 

ob

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Re: Americans please.

Matt . Looks like lately we've done some "swaying" with Turkey to use their air strips(lol) ,but at a $$figure.I thought we weren't going to negotiate and kiss a$$ on neighboring countries for support.Turkey had refused use of their air strips for strategic strikes until last week.Oh yeah, We'll let big business and Uncle Sam go stabilize their economy and screw more Americans out of jobs.If we have to buy our allies I say to hell with them.What's integrated "world peace" worth if I have to "watch my back" or "ante up."
 

mattttt25

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Re: Americans please.

ob, you make a good point. i was simply trying to explain how our top officials make "war" decisions these days. when we (junior officers) were taught this, i started to think about it and realized everything i saw and heard in the news made a little more sense. its obvious that we can't firm all parts of the "pentagon", but it does dictate our strategy. in regards to international environment, we desperately need the support of our allies and neutrals. not for the actual war effort, but just to have them stand up and say we are doing right. on the home front, its easy to understand we don't want another vietnam. you really can use the "pentagon" i spoke of earlier and apply it to past wars in history and learn why some went well and others did not.
 
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Re: Americans please.

So answers please to this.<br /><br />Do you think you could win this terrorist thing without Europe?
Undoubtedly, yes. Do you realize that America did to Afghanistan in 6 months what Russia wasn't able to do in 10 years????<br /><br />Granted there were joint forces of Canada and GB, but as mentioned before, I don't ever see GB going against the US.<br /><br />As for the use of Turkey's airstrips and having to pay them money, you may or may not remember a little known fact during the Gulf War in 1990. Spain wouldn't allow our planes to overfly their air space. This is nothing new. Turkey is jsut being...Turkey...and trying to cash in on the situation.<br /><br />One other little tidbit, France, as always being very French, during the Desert Storm conflict - a war in the desert - to show support lent us military assistance by sending in hardware. Alot of third world countries did the same, some African countries sent us like 22 planes - the extent of the air force, some of the South AMericans even chipped in with troops which comprised much of their national defense. Some of the larger countries sent money, hardware and troops. France, sent to our aid - durring a desert battle - 1 (one) destroyer to an almost land-locked country.<br /><br />Viva la France...
 

Fishbusters

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Re: Americans please.

Okay truth be told and initial anger out of the way not to mention the thought of what weapons of warfare we have now no one knows about. I don't see any problems with the USA taking out any nation they feel is a threat without the blessing of anyone else. If the USA and all Americans got behind what we are trying to do we would just devastate whatever enemy or perceived enemy we had and have others supporting any and all of our actions to boot. Let us not forget WWI and WWII as well as a few other situations we may mention when Americans got behind what the armed forces were doing and saved the rest of the world. Yes the other forces helped but who actually won the wars? If nothing else fear of becoming our enemy will force even those who do not agree to remain silent or jump on the bandwagon because to do otherwise would mean perhaps facing a ticked off USA.
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
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8,217
Re: Americans please.

Skinnywater, I still do not understand. Do you mean to tell me that because of the way we treated other countries, allowed capatilism to run amock, that a group of people leveled two Amercian buildings,heavily damaged another, killed over 3000 people of diverse countries of origin, citzenship,faiths, ages and races, to....<br /><br />Get even?<br /><br />And which group inside these buildings were thier real target?<br /><br />And all those adults and children OUTSIDE of thier targeted group were justifiable colateral damage???<br /><br />An alqueda operative was asked by a tabloid they trusted, what it would take to end the hostilities from the terrorist group known as Alqueda. The reply was (I qoute) "Every person in the United States must convert to Islam".<br />What you claim the world view of real Americans is, can be labled "redneck" by some.<br /><br />Now, I do some crazy things. I wheel-n-deal. I believe in basic human rights.. I eat pork.<br />But I'll die at thier hands before I convert. In other words, just as in our nation's humble start, a citizen will utter, "Give me liberty,or give me death".<br />After alll, I don't those towels look very confortable, and will die before wearing one.<br />This ol boy likes his blue jeans. And by the way, they started the schoolyard brawl, and us good ol boys will fishish-off by seeing to it,these battered and bruised low-lifes are wearing blue jeans and praying to Jesus for thier lives.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Americans please.

The story regarding "human shields" was in the major paper in Montreal. Forgive me, I do not have the name of the publication.
 

Hooty

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Re: Americans please.

USAF Four Star General Speaks Out <br /> <br />For those of you who don't know who General Hawley is, he is a newly retired <br />4-star general who commanded Air Combat Command. These are good words and true. <br /> <br />Speech from the former ACC commander (now retired and not restricted to being politically correct), Gen <br />Hawley: <br /> <br />"Since the attack, I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such surpassing stupidity that they must be <br />addressed. You've heard them too. <br /> <br />Here they are: <br /> <br />1) "We're not good, they're not evil, everything is relative." Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, nothing is <br />relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying "We're good" doesn't mean, "We're <br />perfect." Okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. <br /> <br />The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be the <br />greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders <br />on Earth and see what happens. In about half a day, the entire world would be a ghost town, and the United <br />States would look like one giant line to see "The Producers. <br /> <br />" 2) "Violence only leads to more violence." This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy <br />League university to say it. <br />Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: <br />Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. <br /> <br />However, complete, fully thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads to more violence <br />because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," <br />not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E <br />--Well, you get the idea. <br /> <br />3) "The CIA and the rest of our intelligence community has failed us." <br />For <br />25 years we have chained our spies like dogs to a stake in the ground, and now that the house has been <br />robbed, we yell at them for not protecting us. <br />Starting in the late seventies, under Carter appointee Stansfield Turner, the giant brains who get these giant <br />ideas decided that the best way to gather international intelligence was to use spy satellites. "After all," <br />they reasoned, "you can see a license plate from 200 miles away." This is very helpful if you've been attacked <br />by a license plate. Unfortunately, we were attacked by humans. Finding humans is not possible with satellites. <br />You have to use other humans. <br /> <br />When we bought all our satellites, we fired all our humans, and here's the really stupid part. It takes years, <br />decades to infiltrate new humans into the worst places of the world. You can't just have a guy who looks like <br />Gary Busey in a Spring Break'93 sweatshirt plop himself down in a coffee shop in Kabul and say "Hiya, boys. <br />Gee, I sure would like to meet that bin Laden fella. "Well, you can, but all you'd be doing is giving the bad guys <br />a story they'll be telling for years. <br /> <br />4) "These people are poor and helpless, and that's why they're angry at us." Uh-huh, and Jeffrey Dahmer's <br />frozen head collection was just a desperate cry for help. The terrorists and their backers are richer than Elton <br />John and, ironically, a good deal less annoying. The poor helpless people, you see, are the villagers they <br />tortured and murdered to stay in power. <br /> <br />Mohammed Atta, one of the evil scumbags who steered those planes into the killing grounds (I'm sorry, one of <br />the "alleged hijackers," according to CNN-they stopped using the word "terrorist," you know), is the son of a <br />Cairo surgeon. But you knew this, too. <br /> <br />In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war were upper-middle-class college kids <br />who grabbed any cause they could think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. At <br />least, that was my excuse. It's the same today. Take the Anti-Global-Warming (or is it World Trade? <br />Oh-who-knows-what-the-hell <br />-they-want demonstrators) They all charged their black outfits and plane tickets on dad's credit card before <br />driving to the airport in their SUV's. <br /> <br />5) "Any profiling is racial profiling." Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the New <br />York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the gazillionaire bin Laden family living in <br />America were afraid of reprisals and left in a huff, never to return to studying at Harvard and using too much <br />Drakkar. I'm crushed. <br />I think we're all crushed. Please come back. With a cherry on top? Why don't they just change their names, <br />anyway? It's happened in the past. <br /> <br />Think about it. How many Adolfs do you run into these days? Shortly after that, I remember watching TV with <br />my jaw on the floor as a government official actually said, "That little old grandmother from Sioux City could be <br />carrying something." Okay, how about this: No, she couldn't. It would never be the grandmother from Sioux <br />City. Is it even possible? What are the odds? Winning a hundred Powerball lotteries in a row? A thousand? <br />A million? <br /> <br />And now a Secret Service guy has been tossed off a plane and we're all supposed to cry about it because he's <br />an Arab? Didn't it have the tiniest bit to do with the fact that he filled out his forms incorrectly- - three times? <br />And then left an Arab history book on his seat as he strolled off the plane? And came back? Armed? Let's <br />please all stop singing "We Are the World" for a minute and think practically. I don't want to be sitting on the <br />floor in the back of a plane four seconds away from hitting Mt. Rushmore and turn, grinning, to the guy next to me to say, "Well, at least we didn't offend them." <br /> <br />SO HERE'S what I resolve for the New Year: Never to forget our murdered brothers and sisters. Never to let <br />the relativists get away with their immoral thinking. After all, no matter what your daughter's political science <br />professor says, we didn't start this. Have you seen that bumper sticker that says, "No More Hiroshimas"? I <br />wish I had one that says, "You First. No More Pearl Harbors." <br /> <br />**** Hawley <br /><br />This should unclutter a few minds.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

Skinnywater

Commander
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Mar 7, 2002
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2,065
Re: Americans please.

>Skinnywater, I still do not understand. Do you >mean to tell me that because of the way we >treated other countries, allowed capatilism to >run amock, that a group of people leveled two >Amercian buildings,heavily damaged another, >killed over 3000 people of diverse countries of >origin, citzenship,faiths, ages and races, to....<br /><br />>Get even?<br /><br />No, not get even. They can't get even. <br />They don't like us. They don't like our attitude and our hypocracy. <br />Since you and I aren't terrorists, Islamic, or even Arabic how can we understand them or see the world through their eyes. I doubt very seriously they're brainwashed or totally stupid. Obviously they have a bone to pick and it means a great deal to them. It's equally obvious they feel rightious, as rightious as you and I feel.<br /><br />However, I'm not stupid either. I certainly TRY to keep myself and my children from being brainwashed.<br /><br />It's been our past foreign policies. Here are some the hypocracies. <br />Giving China most favored trading statis, while continueing decades old embargo against Cuba.<br />Supporting the Shah of Iran.<br />Supporting Marcos of the Phillipines.<br />Training, placing and supporting Manuel Noriega.<br />Not holding Isreal to UN242, while completely turning our heads to settlement expansion.<br />Supporting and arming SADDAM HUSSIEN in his war with Iran!!!!!<br />Our Attorney General MURDERING children in Waco.<br />Our BATF murdering an unarmed mother while holding a child in Ruby Ridge,Idaho.<br />The recent ASSAULT in violation of the 4th amendment to the Constitution.<br />The decades old loss of the 10th amendment.<br />The complete convolution of the 1st amendment.<br />The constant attack of the 2nd amendment.<br />Gun makers being sued instead of the person who pulls the trigger.<br />McDonald's being sued because someone gets fat eating their Hamburgers, fries and shakes.<br />Our past President commits blatant PURGURY, later gets disbarred for it and is still someones hero?<br />Drugs for guns in Central America.<br />Drugs for guns in S. E. Asia.<br />Drugs for support in Afganistan.<br />RJR, Phillip Morris, ALL those CEO's swearing in front of Congress........they aren't addictive.<br />It's a womans right to chose to have her unborn childs head crushed.<br /><br />Does all this make it right that they attack us?<br />Hell No! <br />Does all this make it that the rest of the world hold US with contempt and distrust? <br />Probably. <br />Dang! I don't trust my government, why should I expect some penny ante Asomma Bin Backbite too also?<br /><br />I've written that I love this country. I'd give my life for it and so would all my family. <br />My hero's are all the men who stood against enormous odds and struck out the Constitution. I'm constantly in awe of them. What men! <br />Imagine to stand in front of an enemy firing squad and in your last words and be the first to say "I regret that I only have but one life to give for my country" What a BADA$$!<br />The founding fathers would have big problems with US today. They would have big problems with US being the worlds police force.<br />In that VERY same spirit, SO DO I.<br /><br />So... Should we go to war against Saddam? Should we systematically hunt our enemies down? <br />Sure, lets roll, I'm in. <br />But after it's all over (if ever). I'd like US Americans to take a LOOOOONG hard look at the state of our OWN affairs, get our own scat in order and start ACTING like the America that the WHOLE wide world once LOVED.<br />I'd like to start with my own states Congressocialists and tell them "Your either with US or against US".
 

62_Kiwi

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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1,159
Re: Americans please.

Hooty - good post! <br /><br />That General is the sort of guy who'd make a great president one day. Not a hint of "political correctness" - just "correct correctness". I like it. :D
 

mellowyellow

Vice Admiral
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Re: Americans please.

thanks Hooty, good to know that all of the people<br />in power are not idiots!<br />Skinny, if you had a son that was constantly<br />getting picked on and beat up at school, would<br />you tell him to fight back or would you go and<br />meet with the priciple and discuss it?
 

mattttt25

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Re: Americans please.

i disagree with the conception that we are so powerful a nation that we should just eliminate our enemies with war while disregarding what the international views are. yes, our military is the most powerful and technologically advanced. but it comes with a price- people. it takes sailors, marines, and soldiers to "win" a war, and the expense is usually lives. now we are more than willing to do this, it's our job. but war has to be the LAST resort. and as i've said in my last posts, there are numerous factors that must guide our decisions. our top governenment and military officials have a tough job to do, and ultimately must make decisions that could cost lives. it just bothers me to hear people thoughtlessly throw out the notion that we are oh so strong and that we should wage war on anyone we want without thinking of the bigger picture. i don't know if war with iraq is the right answer, and am thankful i don't need to make the decision.
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Americans please.

matt, thank you for serving our country, I for<br />one appreciate it! there are plenty of Iraqis<br />who want to get rid of the current regime, they<br />just need our help. I think the best option is<br />to help the people of Iraq overthrow the current<br />dictatorship themselves.
 

mattttt25

Commander
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2,661
Re: Americans please.

thanks mellow. all the sailors, marines, and soldiers need the support. you may be correct with the iraqi people, and that's another factor that our top officials are busy debating (#5 of the pentagon). we are hoping that if we do wage war, that we can split the iraqi military and get some of their generals to rebel/surrender/quit. many, many factors to think about-
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Americans please.

you are more than welcome sir!<br />I think the entire Northern Kurdish population<br />would join the fight in a heartbeat. these are<br />the same people he tried to anhialate with poison<br />gas. so invade from the north with their help<br />perhaps.<br />GO NAVY!<br />M.Y.
 

zorro1

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Re: Americans please.

As I said on the thread, some I have upset and some know me. However when the news came over the radio of sept 11th my heart dropped. The first plane we thought may be a light aircraft but never the less, a tragedy. When the second hit we all stopped working. We were not on American soil but in the United Kingdom.<br />We were building anti-terrorist powerboats (52ft 27 ltre with surface piercing props) and they wanted up to 90 of these. We often wondered why so many and why in such a hurry? Hell, forget the questions we got paid well and soldiered on. <br />It was the radio that day that put it all into perspective. <br />My only concern was how can one country be getting prepaired and another be totally unaware? BAE Systems were unindated with orders from the UAE too. I have associates there. The sadness I felt that day. <br /><br />Quote: mercey, I can get much more specific. However, I'm unclear what your point or motivation is. My impression is your just as full of hypocrisy as the next fool and since you haven't come up with a solution you are well part of the problem.<br /><br />Simple really. Its all the pesponses on this forum. What journalism says means didley squat. Its by this method I/we can get our amswers. Read all the posts one by one. As you read them you all reason with eachother (most) and my thread also. <br />Your remark above is one of contempt. I suppose if you ask a lady to dance and she refuses you tell her to f**k off then? Not the more sensible. Surely they would offer to sit and talk and honour anothers position. Its called being honourable.
 

rogerwa

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Re: Americans please.

I just have two observations on this topic.<br /><br />Bin Laden has the biggest case of the pot calling the kettle black I've ever seen. What makes it worse is that the kettle really isn't black, although the pot is, he knows that calling the kettle black yields him more power. Why don't the people in the muslim world understand the duality of the position he espouses. The muslim world criticizes the US as being anti-muslim zionists, when they in the same breath hate us for being christian, when in truth we in many, many cases are not. I don't see any organized public hatred of any religious orginzation, when in fact our law provides protection. We have no Sharia law. Double standard..yes.<br /><br />On the issue of Iraq, it is as simple as playground politics.<br /><br />Saddam is the 3rd grade bully who is collecting all the smaller kids lunch money by intimidation and threat of getting beat up. As we all know, you can't negotiate with the 3rd grade bully.<br /><br />Pres Bush, in lieu of his predecessor, is now acting as the responsible 6th grade brother of a victimized 3rd grader. He tells Saddam, stop collecting the lunch money or I will beat your head in. The 6th grader knows he can do it and would feel bad about doing it but knows that the actions of the bully must stop and he will make an example of Saddam if necessary.<br /><br />We are now at the point where the 6th grader has levied the ultimatum and are waiting to see if he needs to deliver on his promise. The choice really is up to Saddam.<br /><br />Again, Saddam needs the threat of imminent destruction to comply. We are just calling his bluff. People do not understand that theat of force is the only way to communicate with a narcissist like Saddam. We are simply speaking his language.<br /><br />Just my $.02
 

Scoop

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Re: Americans please.

I agree that without the threat, Saddam will not comply. With the threat he may not comply.<br />The fact that the world should see is does the UN hold any sway. If the UN puts out resolutions that everyone ignores, what good is it? The war with Iraq was ended with Iraq's surrender. When they signed the documents, they agreed to total weapons inspections and access. At every point, they did all they could to deny access. The UN did nothing but issue new orders and protests. Nothing has worked until Mr. Bush forced the issue. If the UN does not get weapons inspections and compliance with the other parts of the peace agreement, then they need to act or give the ok for others to act. If they do not do this, then the UN is worthless and we should not only withdraw our support but we should leave the UN.<br /><br />Talk is cheap and easy. Action is neither. Do we want war? No. Do I want my 10 year old son to have to go to war in the future because I was too afraid to act? No. Do I want American lives spent on this? No. Do I think it will take more American lives in the future if this is not done, Yes.<br /><br />One more thing. While I am happy with the way the wars or conflicts have gone with Iraq and Afghanistan, I am not so naive to think that we will win every war without sacrifice. Notice we still are not out of Afghanistan. The Taliban and Al Qaeda did not have the support of Russia or China. When The Soviet Union invaded, the other side had our backing of weapons and training. There is not comparison. When we went into Viet Nam, we thought it was going to be short work. We all know it wasn't. Hopefully we will never get so self-serving that we will ever take war lightly, or not use all the resources we have to win as quickly and decisively as possible. This goes for everything we do. We have made many mistakes in underestimating our enemies before. Korea, Viet Nam, and Somalia are some good examples. We cannot afford to do that again.
 
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