Americans please.

[Skinnywater]

Re: Americans please.

>Skinny, if you had a son that was constantly<br />>getting picked on and beat up at school, would<br />>you tell him to fight back or would you go and<br />>meet with the priciple and discuss it?<br /><br />It would all depend.<br />In this case my son would be the biggest, most well dressed and RARELY picked on. He's loud and a bit of a show off.<br />I would know he had a good heart but had a problem of sticking his nose where it did'nt belong.<br />As his father I've given him direction and guidence. The times he follows my advice he generally stays out of trouble and is well liked by all his teachers and peers. The times he doesn't he doesn't do so well at all.<br /><br />I'd really have to search for the cause of him getting picked on. <br /><br />I think at this point, with reservations, I'd have him kick some butt.<br />However, when he gets home I'm going to kick his butt real good. I'm going to send him to counseling, restrict him from all other activities, until he listens to me and gets his head right.

 

[plywoody]

Re: Americans please.

I disagree with most on this board, I guess. I don't think we can win the war on terror without Europe, and their help.<br />I don't think we have even put a dent in the terrorists at this point, and Afghanistan is a complete mess as we speak. We need to finish what we start before we go on to the next task.<br /><br />What is the urgent need to attack Iraq? I have yet to hear any credible evidence they had anything whatsoever to do with Al-qaida, and the attacks on America. Just exactly what imminent threat does Saddam pose to the USA? <br /><br />the notion of overthrowing governments we don't like by force is troubling at the very least. There are lots of governments we don't like--where do we draw the line?<br />I suspect the answer to that lies in whether they have vast oil fields or not.<br /><br />I have no doubt that America has a vastly superior military than Iraq, or anyone else for that matter, and that we will quickly win a military battle with them...The question becomes, what next? does anyone reasonably think that a Jeffersonian democracy will break out once Saddam is gone? Highly doubtful. There are competing factions desperate for power now over there, none of which will probably be better than Saddam.<br /><br />Let's finish the work against the terrorists. We have hardly begun. It is a world-wide struggle, which we need everyone's help and intelligence, and let's put some pressure on Iraq and keep him under control for now until he poses a specific risk. (If he poses a risk now, let's hear about it in real terms, and not thru fear,inuendos and rumors)<br /><br />I know everyone would love to see Iraq bombed, and it would make everyone in the US feel proud, guarantee re-election to Bush and make some oil executives richer than they were, but it is a dangerous precedent to attack a country that does not pose a verifiable threat to this country, and it is a foreign policy change that cannot be continued, and most fundamentally, will not make this nation more secure, and most probably make us less secure.<br /><br />Let's get rid of the terrorists. We have only begun, and have lots of work to do to complete that,<br /><br />John

 

[SCO]

Re: Americans please.

Thinking about whether we can win or not by ourselves is not an issue. We have to take them on just like you English had to take on Hitler. Pandoras box has been opened, and the likes of sadam will be moving with great speed to exploit the vulnerability exhibited by 911. Pacification and National/ World self doubt will not stop this threat. It doesnt matter if our policies were the cause though I think there is nothing we can do or could have done to please these people short of mass hari kari.

 

[bobber head]

Re: Americans please.

Quite a gathering of opinons here. Some well informed, some up to the minute, most of clear resolve.<br /><br />Good for you. You stand by your convictions to the bitter end. But so does the guy standing against you. Maybe even more so.<br /><br />The problem is big guns don't solve issues, they create an arms race. Which sadly seems to be human nature.<br /><br />Picking off "3rd grade bully's" simply creates a void for a new "3rd grade bully" to move in: all that much the wiser from seeing the previous ones demise.<br /><br />So how does one deal with a bully? I don't know. I suppose a well placed bullet is the most expedient, although that only creates a need for a bigger bullet when the next one pops up. I know, maybe during one of the lull's before the worlds next most popular bully reaches our attention, we will have time to think of a solution. Rather like stomping out the bigger fires first so we can have the time to see where the fires are actually starting and address that.<br /><br />As ironic, or uncaring as this may sound, I believe our lives on this planet will have to come within a stones throw of total obilivion before we wake up and change our attitudes and behaviors - particularly the stone throwing. <br /><br />That things have to get really ugly before we make changes: a war with Iraq may get us one step closer. <br /><br />Sincerely, Bobber head.

 

[Tacklewasher]

Re: Americans please.

djohns19 said:<br /><br />"The story regarding "human shields" was in the major paper in Montreal. Forgive me, I do not have the name of the publication."<br /><br />Can't respond to the article then except to say you are likely worried about nothing. I have not seen anything related to this in what I read and suspect it was a small report of some fringe element. Not the view of Canadians in general.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Americans please.

skinny,<br />I looks like you don't have any kids, so sorry it's<br />really not a fair question. at least that's the<br />way I read your post?<br />the point is more about what is the most effective<br />way of stopping a bully. they only pick on kids <br />who can't or choose not to stand up.<br />I for one am for standing up!<br />expect my buddies to have my back, but if they<br />don't I'll probably still deal with it directly.<br />that's just the way I am... and it's got my nose<br />broke in the past, but that hasn't changed how I<br />deal with such issues.<br />plywood,<br />huh??? proof???<br />this guy used poisoned gas on his own people!<br />that's why they have a "Northern Fly Zone".<br />"war is hell" (Patton?), but sometimes you gotta<br />do it, even if it's unpleasant.<br />too much brains and not enough....

 

[ob]

Re: Americans please.

As long as Americans pu$$yfoot around and wage politically correct action nothing will or can be remedied.As far as colateral damage is concerned in any aggression I'll be concerned about that when I see the people of these oppressed nations have enough guts to stand against what their leaders are carrying out.Until then they are simply part of the problem.Remember what Truman had to do so that we can all sit back in our easy chairs and pop our bills.<br /> Middle east oil wouldn't be worth spit if America had not provided an avenue to extract,refine, and market it.Now a handful of the land owning self serving little vermins want to control it all.I liken it to a spoiled rotten irrational heir to throne of wealth that neither acknowledges or respects the provider.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Americans please.

Skinnywater, you made good point after good point there. Your post before somewhat sickened me, but then to read the other, I found myself in total agreement with all,except one thing.<br />You seem to be concerned with Alqueda's motives, and what we as Americans have done that led up to this.<br />I could give a rat's rear to ---"understand them or see the world through their eyes."<br />I bring you back to the schooolyard bully analogy,as it seems to fit again.<br />If a 12year-old 12Footer was standing in the school yard,laughing at a crying classmate, and the crying classmate walked over to him,and kicked him in the treasure chest without any outward sign, than as soon a 12Footer recovered enough, the crying chile would be beyond tears.It would mean total war.<br />When the US was attacked on December 7th, 1941, we were not giving any confort to Japan. We had an emargo on them in retaliation for attrocities in China. They kicked us hard that day, much as these pisants have 2001. Both were suprise attacks. Both ememies had "bones to pick " with the U.S.A.<br />What differs is only to which branch of the armed forces they attacked,and where.<br />At this point, Alqueda still walks the Earth,and I personally could care less of what pushed them into this. I don't agree with most of our foriegn policy as a nation,iether, Skinnywater. But every country looks upon Amercica with jealousy, disgust, hatered for our mannerisms, religigious and political freedom,and call us SPOILED!<br />Imagine that! They even have some whacked-out Amercans ARGEEING and SIDING with them! Only (nd I do mean only)in this country, could this happen without terible and swift reprocussions! It fascinates me, and makes me proud and sick at the same time.<br /><br />When Bush first spoke about our positition after the attacks, I agreed,and made a commitment to see this though to victory..It is a war. It should not be allowed to be lost, all the while, caring about thier feelings......That would be "Veitnam2002,The sequal". I say, do what you can to suport our armed services and government agencies to win.<br />This war will have many fronts, as many countries harbour mutant militias of terrorists. I's time to make this stand,and back up our actions with further actions,and resolve. The UN should be much swifter with thier descission to join our efforts. If not, I personaly think that we should then act on our own.<br />Delays help the ememy in all manners of warfare.<br />Let's not help them.

 

[plywoody]

Re: Americans please.

Everyone seems to equate taking out Iraq with taking out terrorism. Why is that?<br /><br />And there are a myriad of oppressive dictators out there that terrorize their populations. What makes Iraq special?<br /><br />Oh, I forgot. Lots of oil

 

[Scoop]

Re: Americans please.

Plywoody, I would disagree. While there are dictators that we do not deal with, we have helped get others that were threats to the world. Serbia is an example.<br /><br />Currently, as part of the UN we have a responsibility to uphold the UN resolutions. The UN has plenty of resolutions on IRAQ. We were leaders in removing Iraq's army from a neighboring country. Because of this we also have a responsibility to see this through. Why wait until he kills more people? He has proven he can and will.

 

[zorro1]

Re: Americans please.

Do not move. Do not even flinch. You ask why I am here?<br />

I disagree with most on this board, I guess. I don't think we can win the war on terror without Europe, and their help.<br />I don't think we have even put a dent in the terrorists at this point, and Afghanistan is a complete mess as we speak. We need to finish what we start before we go on to the next task

I do not for one gloat at thus. However I feel that Plywood has spoken as someone who has more understanding of world cobflict than many.<br />It is not he who remarks on his allies, it is he who sees his allies as foes you must watch!

 

[SCO]

Re: Americans please.

Come on Plywoody, thats purely inflamatory to say Bush is doing this for oil. My judgement of his character is that he would not murder our sons and take our country to war to line his pockets or favor friends. Is that what you really think? I think you're goosing us but its time to stop that kind of party line below the belt bickering, and that goes for me too. The reason to get iraq is partly logistical. Were set up to go, know the terrain, know he has the means, motivation, and will to hand the worst of mass destruction to the terrorists. He is the worst threat and we can knock him off the quickest. It will also be an example to other Despots of what not to do. This guy is smoking in the bathroom, and all the hoods are getting the same idea. What if it doesn't go well you ask? It's not going to go well if we quake in fear and do nothing. "Maybe they won't attack again if we just change our ways" you might say. Nobody knows the answer to that. This is all moot. We've got a decisive president, right or wrong. I'd rather that the fight comes on our terms, not theirs.

 

[zorro1]

Re: Americans please.

One word. HIROSHIMA. Was it because the losing streek was in the officers hand or was it pay back?<br />In either case.<br />Who were the innocent?

 

[zorro1]

Re: Americans please.

Come on Plywoody, thats purely inflamatory to say Bush is doing this for oil.

So how come "CSO" when gassing the Curds you did not rescue their knitting?<br />"Oh" one forgot. It is not lambs wool that is of PROFIT!

 

[SCO]

Re: Americans please.

THere were plenty of innocent civilians. There would have been plenty of innocent former citizen American soldiers (and Japanese soldiers for that matter) that would have died had we invaded. Millions of people died in that conflict. We lost a lot of our boys over there. It's amazing that "pay back" stands out as an atrocity.

 

[Scoop]

Re: Americans please.

Ahh, Let's bait the Americans. Not trying to understand, but see what reaction we can get. Thanks for the conversation Mercey. It was interesting while it lasted.

 

[zorro1]

Re: Americans please.

Scoop? Not baiting just.....................

 

[SCO]

Re: Americans please.

You know Mercey, that you really seem to believe in the profit motive lets me know that you underestimate Bush ,the motive, and magnitude of the American resolve that will be evidenced. This ain't about profit. BTW ,whats your original nationality?

 

[zorro1]

Re: Americans please.

SCOOP. Baiting YES. How else do we see eachother? Do we trust journalism?

 

[zorro1]

Re: Americans please.

<br />THere were plenty of innocent civilians. There would have been plenty of innocent former citizen American soldiers (and Japanese soldiers for that matter) that would have died had we invaded. Millions of people died in that conflict. We lost a lot of our boys over there. It's amazing that "pay back" stands out as an atrocity.

Again it is not what would have been. As in the USA's decision to nuke when the the chips are down and being conquered is the outlook? Just a shame that pearl harbour the film finished when it did. Maybe the finale was left out for a reason?<br />Yours, No Concience.