Outrageous Postal stamp...

[rolmops]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Kenny,I think that stamp is just fine.It is a beautiful piece of Persian arabic calligraphy.<br />This opinion comes from someone who lived in Israel and fought terrorism in open and covert battle in Israel,Lebanon ,Syria,Egypt,Jordan and Iraq as a paratrooper and demolition expert.<br />I will never let them take my joy for beauty and art away, because then this would be a victory for terrorism.<br />If you dare look at this stamp,you will see great artistic talent and craftsmanship.<br />I have a very hard time looking at german art,so I know where you come from.I solved this for myself by not doing anything that has to do with the nazi era. Maybe that would be a solution for you.

 

[spratt]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

It has always been a question in my mind as to how returning soldiers can cope with all the death, killing, wounding, maiming, blood, guts, and so forth that is viewed during battle...some who have never been close to it, say that it becomes old news to the soldier who has to live through it daily...I think not!! I can hardly believe that viewing another hman's death can become unceremonial (maybe not the right word), old hat, or even commonplace...one death, or thousands dying, I am certain it has an impact that long outlives the end of the battle...I can only imagine teh fear and horror of when the GI'swent ashore on that fateful day and were mowed down on the beach by the Germans...no, I CANNOT imagine it.<br /><br />Unfortunately some never recover, I do know that!! I have been in the military with folks who have served in other branches and transferred to the Navy...my dorm mate was a previous Ranger, who had seen much, but never would discuss it...however, he could not let the military life go...so, the Navy seeming the safest, he transferred over...another guy who did the same, went berserk one night in the barracks in Memphis, and took a knife after some guys and was yelling about the "gooks" who were afer him, and he was gonna kill them all...poor guy was taken down by some big guys and held for the MP's...had to go to a psycho ward...knew another guy who had been strung out on drugs in Nam, got into the Navy, and one day in the lunch room, lost it and was having some kind of flash backs, seeing snakes and bugs in his lunch tray...another one for the psycho ward...knew a Marine who killed his wife with a ball bat because she started yelling at him, right in the hallway outside their apartment...noone would help her, and when the MP's arrived, her blood was running out from under the door...the Marine then tried to take his own life by sawing his abdomen open with a serrated butcher knife, but the muscles would tighten against the effort so much, he could not do it...thankfully he was found rather quickly and he did not go to a psycho ward, but to the military penetentiary in Kansas...7 years...<br /><br /><br />What is this all about? Well, I feel that some of the guys who have been there, done that, and successfully have beat the odds to become productive citizens and have learned to love others, and beat back their hate for foreigners, may have the key to what many of the American people now are suffering after 9/11...just how DO/DID you guys deal with your emotions, and win over them?<br /><br />Rolmops, you inspired me...my own brother spent two terms in Nam, only to die a death here in the US as a criminal at the hand of a rookie County policeman who was scared to death one night (not blaming him, you policemen out there, my brother got his just reward after pulling or attempting to pull, a shotgun on the officer...happened two days after Christmas in 1980, in Stone Mountain, GA, if anyone here lives in that area...photos of his car were all over teh front pages teh next morning)...he never beat his ghosts, I reckon...

 

[deputydawg]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

KKC, I wish there was something I could do for you to help you through this. You have earned your right to hate these people. I never meant to let on that anyone was wrong for their feelings or thoughts on this. This is a right we all have as Americans. I like to throw out other sides of arguements just to make people think a little. I like a good debate and arguement too. I can't say I understand your feelings, because there is no way I can. I know from my own experiences the loss of all of this. My losses are different but the same. At least I volunteered for my end of it all.<br />The only advice I have for anyone suffering PTSD is to cry whenever you need to, and don't ever be afraid to talk about it. Good luck to you and everyone who was there, stay strong.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

originally from Woodrat:Just have a clear policy that NO religious symbols will be displayed using public funds or property.

<br />Change the word "NO" to "ANY, and the word "WILL" to "CAN" or "MAY", and I couldn't agree more.<br />And tell me when "public" meant "everyone except _______ "(name of sect or group).

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

I'm dead-sure, that had the USPS offered atamp with a SWASTIKA on it durring the second world war, there would have been a very large lynch mob in front of the postal general's office.<br />But today, we must tolerate it. Not me...Still aint excepting it, nor will I lick it.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br />

originally from Woodrat:Just have a clear policy that NO religious symbols will be displayed using public funds or property.

<br />Change the word "NO" to "ANY, and the word "WILL" to "CAN" or "MAY", and I couldn't agree more.<br />And tell me when "public" meant "everyone except _______ "(name of sect or group).

If you really, really mean "any" then i would agree to that. But I doubt that you or many others here would be happy to see wiccan symbols displayed on public property, and you've already made clear that if it were up to you and several others on this thread, there would be nothing relating to islam displayed on public property. You can't even tolerate it on a postage stamp! So I really think it would just be simpler and would preclude a whole lot of bickering and lawsuits if we just kept it to zero, and left the religious icons to be displayed on private property or in churches.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

from woodratIf you really, really mean "any" then i would agree to that. But I doubt that you or many others here would be happy to see wiccan symbols displayed on public property, and you've already made clear that if it were up to you and several others on this thread, there would be nothing relating to islam displayed on public property. You can't even tolerate it on a postage stamp! So I really think it would just be simpler and would preclude a whole lot of bickering and lawsuits if we just kept it to zero, and left the religious icons to be displayed on private property or in churches.

<br /><br />That would be fine, provided you didn't reroute school busses because they pass a bunch of churches. This has actualy happened. <br />The problem lies in the fact that God-worshipers are standing up for thier own rights now, as opposed to just trying to get along .<br />The simple cure to this disease is let the doctors treat it...NOT the lawyers.<br /><br /><br />

Woodrat "Sorry about the town in FL. It wasn't me! I find PC hypersensitivities and overreactions and offendedness just as depressing and irrelevant as the right wing equivalent"

<br />LOL right.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Originally posted by KKC:<br /> woodrat,<br /><br />I wish you no ill feelings, nor do I honestly wish a terrorist attack upon you, or your neighbors!<br /><br />But I also will not edit what I said, because I firmly believe every word I posted.<br /><br />My intentions where not to insult or degrade anyone at i-boats, just trying to give you another insight into this whole situation.<br />

Kenny;<br /><br />I didn't really think that you would really wish a terrorist attack even on someone you probably dislike as much as me. But I still think its a pretty outrageous thing to say, no matter what the context. Can you imagine how fast I would have been shown the door here if I had wished a terrorist attack or your neighborhood or 12 footer's? <br /><br />I would not expect or ask you to edit what you said. You said it for reasons that are your own, and my skin is thick enough to just let it go by. But I still look at so many of these hateful and racist responses to what I think is a very beautiful stamp, and I really do wonder what is in store for us as a nation. When exactly would a person in your situation really be satisfied that the american deaths on 911 were adequately avenged? What is the ratio of muslim deaths required for each of the 3000 or so americans who perished on 911? I really think that you would be better off to start seeking help and support for your anger long before the war is "over" because with hatred like yours (and "theirs") fueling the fire, it could go on for a very long time.<br /><br />The terrorists no doubt rationalized their actions against civilians much the same way you rationlize your hatred against muslims in general: guilt by association. <br /><br />In the meantime, I will continue to admire the art and culture from all kinds of places around the globe and hope for people of all races to get their heads out of their asses, sooner than later. If that makes me a traitor or a terrorist sympathizer, well, I guess that's what I am, then. I sure am getting sick of trying to convince you all that I'm not.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

I don't use a spellchecker <br /><br />

woddrat:In the meantime, I will continue to admire the art and culture from all kinds of places around the globe and hope for people of all races to get their heads out of their asses, sooner than later. If that makes me a traitor or a terrorist sympathizer, well, I guess that's what I am, then. I sure am getting sick of trying to convince you all that I'm not.

<br /><br />Jane Fonda pretty-much said the same thing. So has Sean Penn. Saying you appreciate art of the enemy is something we all do, who honestly appreciate art. Some of the mosgues over there are werks of scupture rather than buildings.<br />When it comes to Culture, on the other hand, some literally teach different ideologies to members of that society, which, in some extreme cases, mean the death or irradication of other cultures .<br />The Taliban,for one.<br />Art never killed anyone, Mark. <br />However, culture, has spurred NUMEROUS genocides thruought history.<br />Alqueda's stated mission is to wipe Christianity from the face of the Earth. I am at war now, even though you are not. It's my view that if you are my countryman, than you are a traitor to this country, if you prefer the preservation of the CULTURE of Alqueda--(again a culture that would kill me and you too,if you got in thier way).<br />As for the Muslim faith, it is up to thier followers to seperate themseleves from this CULTURE that advocates flying jets into buildings and self-deotonating in crowded areas!<br />No seperation on thier part, none given on mine.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br />

from woodratIf you really, really mean "any" then i would agree to that. But I doubt that you or many others here would be happy to see wiccan symbols displayed on public property, and you've already made clear that if it were up to you and several others on this thread, there would be nothing relating to islam displayed on public property. You can't even tolerate it on a postage stamp! So I really think it would just be simpler and would preclude a whole lot of bickering and lawsuits if we just kept it to zero, and left the religious icons to be displayed on private property or in churches.

<br /><br />That would be fine, provided you didn't reroute school busses because they pass a bunch of churches. This has actualy happened. <br />The problem lies in the fact that God-worshipers are standing up for thier own rights now, as opposed to just trying to get along .<br />The simple cure to this disease is let the doctors treat it...NOT the lawyers.<br /><br /><br />

Woodrat "Sorry about the town in FL. It wasn't me! I find PC hypersensitivities and overreactions and offendedness just as depressing and irrelevant as the right wing equivalent"

<br />LOL right.

You know 12, you don't know nearly as much about me as you seem to think. Still beating on that old left-wing socialist atheist straw man.<br /><br />I think that rerouting busses to avoid churches and denying the nativity scene in a public park is way overboard. I agree with you on this! I just don't think from talking to you or many other christians, or just reading these threads, for example, that the christian right wing movement really intends to tolerate something like a muslim display on public property. you can't even tolerate the existance of a stamp that has already been around for three years. And I have to say, if you are going to tolerate a christian display on public grounds, then you won't have the legal or moral ground from which to deny the same space to other religions. So i still think it is safer, policy wise, to treat all equally in the simplest manner possible. Zero access to all religions.<br /><br />Seems simple. and in the meantime, I am against crazy, oversensitive liberal overreaches like have been described here.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /> I don't use a spellchecker <br /><br />

woddrat:In the meantime, I will continue to admire the art and culture from all kinds of places around the globe and hope for people of all races to get their heads out of their asses, sooner than later. If that makes me a traitor or a terrorist sympathizer, well, I guess that's what I am, then. I sure am getting sick of trying to convince you all that I'm not.

<br /><br />Jane Fonda pretty-much said the same thing. So has Sean Penn. Saying you appreciate art of the enemy is something we all do, who honestly appreciate art. Some of the mosgues over there are werks of scupture rather than buildings.<br />When it comes to Culture, on the other hand, some literally teach different ideologies to members of that society, which, in some extreme cases, mean the death or irradication of other cultures .<br />The Taliban,for one.<br />Art never killed anyone, Mark. <br />However, culture, has spurred NUMEROUS genocides thruought history.<br />Alqueda's stated mission is to wipe Christianity from the face of the Earth. I am at war now, even though you are not. It's my view that if you are my countryman, than you are a traitor to this country, if you prefer the preservation of the CULTURE of Alqueda--(again a culture that would kill me and you too,if you got in thier way).<br />As for the Muslim faith, it is up to thier followers to seperate themseleves from this CULTURE that advocates flying jets into buildings and self-deotonating in crowded areas!<br />No seperation on thier part, none given on mine.

I think I'm done being ranted at by you every time I pop my head above ground and say something outrageous like "I appreciate other cultures, too."<br /><br />I'm definitely done defending my self against charges of treason.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Woodrat:You know 12, you don't know nearly as much about me as you seem to think. Still beating on that old left-wing socialist atheist straw man.

<br />I'm sorry if you are offended. You get mad because I "call you a traitor",when all I did was accuse you of behaving as one (citing Sean Penn and Hanoi Jane).<br />I'm not labeling you at all.<br />besides, labels can be misleading.DECIEVING<br />But I am what i am, too,lables asside .<br /><br />

Woodrat:<br />I think that rerouting busses to avoid churches and denying the nativity scene in a public park is way overboard. I agree with you on this! I just don't think from talking to you or many other christians, or just reading these threads, for example, that the christian right wing movement really intends to tolerate something like a muslim display on public property. you can't even tolerate the existance of a stamp that has already been around for three years. And I have to say, if you are going to tolerate a christian display on public grounds, then you won't have the legal or moral ground from which to deny the same space to other religions. So i still think it is safer, policy wise, to treat all equally in the simplest manner possible. Zero access to all religions.

<br />As Christians, we are taught to love everyone,to forgive everyone, regardless of crimes against humanity or any other sins,just as Jesus did. It's one of the centerpieces of our faith.<br />The "intolerance" comes-into play when we are under assault. AS Christians, and humans, we must fight to survive. When attacked, we defend.<br />We don't admire artwerk or cultures of the enemy at that particular time. We might STUDY that culture to find a safer,better more efficiant way of winning the war,but -- Admire? I Don't Think So! We tend to make sure nobody in our vicinity is about to self-detonate. This habit the enemy has of doing that disguists me as a human, and the bible says I don't have to lay my head on thier chopping block....Oh yeah, I forgot...they dont USE a chopping block...They bind the victim's hands behind thier backs,pulling the head back as far as possible, and,using a rusty, dull saw blade, SLOWLY SAW thier victim's heads away,as the victims scream in indescribable pain !!<br />Please spare me your amiration for thier culture.<br />And the stamp still draws vacuum!

 

[62_Kiwi]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Well put 12Footer.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Thanks, Kiwi

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

From Woodrat: think I'm done being ranted at by you every time I pop my head above ground and say something outrageous like "I appreciate other cultures, too."<br /><br />I'm definitely done defending my self against charges of treason.

<br />What we've got here is---------Failure to communicate.<br />WE are debating a USPS postage stamp, and it got derailed into another debate on religion. How about we just re-direct it? And I will not call you a traitor. I promise. You haven't met the requirments set-forth in Webster's dictionary yet anyhow. You aren't fighting to protect the enemy, are you?<br />Chill, Mark. Just when I think all our head-bumpping here has brought us to some common ground and agreement, you go and get all defensive. <br />When the topic is soundly on the subject of my enemies, I feel the anger. And that anger is NOT EVER directed at my countrymen, or my allies, including those like you, who seek to debate actions towards them. My passionate anger is reserved for OBL and his merry men.<br />I'm a little hostile in my protection of my freedoms and my faith. I think it's normal human behaviour, but you'll have to ask a psychiatrist(SP) about that..<br /><br /><br />I think you and I have said we need to say here, but if not, have at it, man.<br />I'm sorry if we sometimes frustrate each other, but that's just part of it,I allways thought.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /> When the topic is soundly on the subject of my enemies, I feel the anger. And that anger is NOT EVER directed at my countrymen, or my allies, including those like you, who seek to debate actions towards them. My passionate anger is reserved for OBL and his merry men.<br />I'm a little hostile in my protection of my freedoms and my faith. I think it's normal human behaviour, but you'll have to ask a psychiatrist(SP) about that..<br />.....

12, I bet everyone here is in agreement with your feelings towards OBL, Al Queida, and the other psychotic Muslim splinter groups. Sounds to me like the debate rages on because of differences in how people perceive and define the Muslim religion. Some here seem to equate the religion with the terrorists (Muslim=terrorist), while others recognize that the terrorists are a subset of the Muslim religion, not representative of it in general.<br /><br />You state above that your "anger is NOT EVER directed at my countrymen, or my allies,...". What about your American Muslim countrymen who also despise OBL and Al Queida? Including those in our military currently fighting the terrorists in Iraq? I suspect it's the rights of Muslims like that that some here are defending, which has nothing to do with OBL or Al Queida, whom we all hate. <br /><br />Just my take on the discussion to this point.

 

[Mrs Soulwinner]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

it has been my experience that most all demoniations that exist today have their own 'guidelines' and forget the following (Jesus teaching):<br /><br />Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.<br /><br />neighbor: according to Christ, any other man irrespective of race or religion with whom we live or whom we chance to meet.<br /><br />this is just MHO.....<br />

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br />12, I bet everyone here is in agreement with your feelings towards OBL, Al Queida, and the other psychotic Muslim splinter groups. Sounds to me like the debate rages on because of differences in how people perceive and define the Muslim religion. Some here seem to equate the religion with the terrorists (Muslim=terrorist), while others recognize that the terrorists are a subset of the Muslim religion, not representative of it in general.<br /><br />You state above that your "anger is NOT EVER directed at my countrymen, or my allies,...". What about your American Muslim countrymen who also despise OBL and Al Queida? Including those in our military currently fighting the terrorists in Iraq? I suspect it's the rights of Muslims like that that some here are defending, which has nothing to do with OBL or Al Queida, whom we all hate. <br /><br />Just my take on the discussion to this point.

yes, I'm sure preception and individual definition of the Muslim religion has everything to do with it. My anger is not directed towards Islam at all. Many of thier chruches have actually gotten-together with Christian churches on outreach and rescue missions. And you asked me ;" What about your American Muslim countrymen who also despise OBL and Al Queida? Including those in our military currently fighting the terrorists in Iraq?"<br />As I've stated before, My anger is not directed at my countrymen. Such brave souls ARE my countrymen. <br />The stamp is like an "in yer face" statement durring this wartime mindset. It's as if a swastika is printed-up, and just in time for Christmas.<br />America is a nation inclusive of EVERY single culture on this panet. There is no country like this one. Why then, would I want an entire religion banned from my land, while this is America? The mutants haven't won this war, and very few of the inclusive battles of this war. Maybee if they DID win, we could say, a religion is banned from being practiced, and a proposed postage stamp will not be printed.<br />Actually, I'm not even against the stamp being printed. I'm against someone buying and using it, and in that respect, it's STILL thier wallet/thier call.<br />If someone were to mail a letter to me using that stamp, I'd find out who it was from, and then, throw it in the "circlular file" unopened.As a free American, that would be my call.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

12, <br /><br />I understand why you would feel the way you do given that you associate the Muslim stamp as the equivalent of a swastika stamp during WWII. My only point is that there is a difference in the symbolism between the two.<br /><br />The swastika as a political symbol WAS associated completely with the enemy during WWII (swastika=Germany=enemy).<br /><br />But the image on the stamp is related to Islam in general, not just with the subset of Islam we all hate (image on stamp=Islam=BOTH friends & foes). And you stated that your anger is directed at the enemy (Muslim terrorists), not Islam in general. It's not like the stamp is a special symbol used by Al Quieda or the terrorists only. <br /><br />In this case you're associating negativity towards the stamp (Islam) because of that evil subset. But doesn't that universal rejection also project negativity onto all the rest of Muslims who don't fit the terrorist profile? That logic would seem to imply that you don't believe the 'good Muslims' have a right to celebrate their religion while we're fighting the much smaller group of 'evil Muslims'. <br /><br />Let's say you had a young neighbor or co-worker you liked who happened to be a Muslim and joined the military. If you were regularly corresponding with him would you toss his letter in the trash unopened if he chose to use a stamp celebrating his religion on a letter he sent you during the holiday season? Or say for some reason you got a letter from Mohammed Ali (or Paula Abdul, or Ahmad Rashad, etc.) during the holidays bearing an Islamic stamp celebrating their religion. Would that go in the trash unopened as well?<br /><br />Not trying to talk you into anything, your feelings are your feelings. Just trying to explain how some others view things so you can understand why they may feel differently.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Outrageous Postal stamp...

I have to admit, all of that makes perfect sense to me, LL, and I see your point. You got me thinkin here, for sure.<br /><br />But as for the hypothetical letter, I'm not too sure a person of the character you make reference to, (one serving that knows me)would subject me to a stamp like that.<br />To shed light on how I feel about this religious stamp, I'd need to subject you to another hypothetical situation..<br />Let's say the "American Assemblies of God" had a few churches in Florida that decided all non-Christians must die,or become one of them (simular to the Islamic delema we have now), but with the roles reversed. For the sake of my example, let's say they attacked Las Vegas,killing 4000 people. They claim responsibility and claim they did so, because it symbolized a Godless society more completely than most US cities.<br />Out of the USPS, comes an "Assemblies Of God Commemorative Christmas Stamp" (for the holiday season only, dont cha know )....How would you feel about that stamp? Personally, I would still not appreciate anything addressed to me using such a stamp, and I am a member of the Assemblies Of God, and a devout Christian, wanting to be "devouter".<br />There are just some lines you simply should not cross, and remain in good taste. I still feel this Islamic stamp is in poor taste, as it crossed that line. It's a temporary gut-reaction to be sure. But this is America.<br /><br />My feelings about 9/11/01 are not as raw as they once were,LL. But a little more courtesy for American feelings by it's own postal service would seem to me to be not too much to ask.