My 84 4winns horizon 195 project.

[matt167]

Don’t bother with marine plywood. Buy CDX or better and make sure it is marked Exposure 1. Common marine grade plywood is just AAX plywood. Once you get into Ocume plywood and Meranti imported stuff, it is mahogany based but you’re going to fall over with the price. Your boat was manufactured with exterior grade, whatever they could get that was good enough.

 

[Lou C]

While it’s a huge amount of work you will wind up with a better built boat than you can buy. I went to the Nassau County (Long Island NY) boat show last year & the Four Winns prices were out of sight expensive. In fact there were very few boats under 55,000 in the 19-20 foot size range.

 

[Dubed]

While it’s a huge amount of work you will wind up with a better built boat than you can buy. I went to the Nassau County (Long Island NY) boat show last year & the Four Winns prices were out of sight expensive. In fact there were very few boats under 55,000 in the 19-20 foot size range.

I bought my 1st and only brand new boat in 1999 at the Newport Boat Show. It was a 1999 Four Winns 258 Vista, fully loaded and the biggest Vp Duo Prop offered. The boat was beautiful for $39K. I couldnt even imagine the cost now. Its completely unaffordable

 

[Pmt133]

This is where your going.
View attachment 395103

My thoughts exactly.

Don’t bother with marine plywood. Buy CDX or better and make sure it is marked Exposure 1. Common marine grade plywood is just AAX plywood. Once you get into Ocume plywood and Meranti imported stuff, it is mahogany based but you’re going to fall over with the price. Your boat was manufactured with exterior grade, whatever they could get that was good enough.

That was a thought too. We have a good working relation with a local lumber yard and we use a higher ply count exterior ply to build our cement forms. They are always nice straight and dried. I plan on looking into what they are actually rated at on an invoice and may just go with them. I was getting quoted at ~200$ a sheet for marine half inch Baltic birch. I can only imagine the more exotic stuff. The form board is ~35$ per 3/4 sheet and I can order it in 10 foot lengths.

While it’s a huge amount of work you will wind up with a better built boat than you can buy. I went to the Nassau County (Long Island NY) boat show last year & the Four Winns prices were out of sight expensive. In fact there were very few boats under 55,000 in the 19-20 foot size range.

I'm sure you've seen how crazy boat prices are in our respective areas lately. Either it's made of gold used or I'm getting into something in worse shape and needs the full gut same as I'm about to do. Anything 10-15 years old in the 22-24 foot range (about the same size as my 19) is going to be nearing 20k still... without a trailer. I couldn't find anything I liked that was worth what was being asked. So here I am lol.

I bought my 1st and only brand new boat in 1999 at the Newport Boat Show. It was a 1999 Four Winns 258 Vista, fully loaded and the biggest Vp Duo Prop offered. The boat was beautiful for $39K. I couldnt even imagine the cost now. Its completely unaffordable

The 330 was 150k rigged out in 2008. I could only imagine what something that size with diesel power goes for now. I intentionally have avoided the AC boat show because I just don't want to know lol.

 

[Lou C]

I bought my 1st and only brand new boat in 1999 at the Newport Boat Show. It was a 1999 Four Winns 258 Vista, fully loaded and the biggest Vp Duo Prop offered. The boat was beautiful for $39K. I couldnt even imagine the cost now. Its completely unaffordable

Well I'd guess, $130-150K if they even made a similar model which I don't think they do.
the boat I liked was a Steiger Craft 21 Miami, with a 200 hp outboard it was $115,000 but they really hold their value
I would not buy another I/O sport boat for a number of reasons, one being poor engine access, another being cat converter exhaust which I will not accept, the last being they are not in most cases truly self bailing, they have 2 little deck drains that, drain into the bilge not overboard as they should.

 

[Lou C]

Want a good laugh....from last years boat show..... this is an H-2, listed as a 22' boat but that includes the big swim platform, the interior is actually smaller than my old H-200 (20'9") and the price, is over $90,000. Frankly, if I'm spending that much on what's a 20 foot boat, it would be a Grady White and not this!
I think they priced themselves into bankruptcy!
The least expensive boat they sell now is the H-1 outboard, this starts at $59,000, but that's only with a 115 hp outboard (inadequate for a boat that weighs 3,300 lbs), to get a 150 (minimum in my opinion) is $65-66 k depending on if it's Merc or Yamaha, to get a 200 hp you're now spending $70-72K again depending on if it's Merc or Yamaha. And it's a 20' boat, nice but just nice, I don't know who would buy these at even discounted prices.
The biggest difference from the older models is that the quality of the interior materials seems much better. Otherwise, I don't see value here.
Salt water boats such as Grady, Key West, Steiger Craft etc are what sells here and they all hold their value well.

So think about these crazy prices and it will make you not regret rebuilding your old boat!

203 DFS | Key West Boats

keywestboats.com

this is what I'd buy if buying a newer boat, close in size to my old one but much less maintenance, and at least truly self bailing.
About the same price as the H-1 outboard, but better for my boating conditions....prob could be had for 60K, or so
Ha Ha that makes it easy to justify a repower when the time comes!

 

[Dubed]

View attachment 395109

Want a good laugh....from last years boat show..... this is an H-2, listed as a 22' boat but that includes the big swim platform, the interior is actually smaller than my old H-200 (20'9") and the price, is over $90,000. Frankly, if I'm spending that much on what's a 20 foot boat, it would be a Grady White and not this!
I think they priced themselves into bankruptcy!

Wow! Hack off tht platform and its an 18' boat for $90k!
Grady or Parker are my wish list used or new. But they also carry big price tag new or used. The ole Chris Craft is just gonna have to keep running for now! I instaled a Minn Kota Riptide this year, so that should improve fishability!

 

[Pmt133]

View attachment 395109

Want a good laugh....from last years boat show..... this is an H-2, listed as a 22' boat but that includes the big swim platform, the interior is actually smaller than my old H-200 (20'9") and the price, is over $90,000. Frankly, if I'm spending that much on what's a 20 foot boat, it would be a Grady White and not this!
I think they priced themselves into bankruptcy!
The least expensive boat they sell now is the H-1 outboard, this starts at $59,000, but that's only with a 115 hp outboard (inadequate for a boat that weighs 3,300 lbs), to get a 150 (minimum in my opinion) is $65-66 k depending on if it's Merc or Yamaha, to get a 200 hp you're now spending $70-72K again depending on if it's Merc or Yamaha. And it's a 20' boat, nice but just nice, I don't know who would buy these at even discounted prices.
The biggest difference from the older models is that the quality of the interior materials seems much better. Otherwise, I don't see value here.
Salt water boats such as Grady, Key West, Steiger Craft etc are what sells here and they all hold their value well.

So think about these crazy prices and it will make you not regret rebuilding your old boat!

203 DFS | Key West Boats

keywestboats.com

this is what I'd buy if buying a newer boat, close in size to my old one but much less maintenance, and at least truly self bailing.
About the same price as the H-1 outboard, but better for my boating conditions....prob could be had for 60K, or so
Ha Ha that makes it easy to justify a repower when the time comes!

Key west makes a nice boat. My friend had a scout in that size, similar boat overall. It was very nice but way way out of my price range.

At some point pleasure boats shifted from pleasure boats to lake boats. That's all that four winns is good for. It wouldn't make it through the canal without being swamped. But I guess when you live in a couple million dollar lake house you can afford a 90k bow rider....

 

[Pmt133]

Just an update, I reached out to our vendor and he quoted me ~55$ a sheet for 3/4" ACX outdoor wood. That's reasonable and probably what I'll go with. I also Got everything braced today. May have went overkill but she doesn't move at all now. Also discovered there are 4 total stringers in the boat... so that'll be fun. I was expecting 2.

I made a single investment in myself, shown above. It's worth the coin. Side note, I am fit tested and certified for this. In case anyone was wondering...

I just went through made sure each side was even and checked with the 4 foot and straight edge... I think I am good. If anyone feels otherwise, please let me know. I'll probably start gutting tomorrow.

 

[chevymaher]

That is a good deal on the ACX. I just paid 50 a sheet for 1/2 inch. They didnt have any 3/4.I am building a shed floor. Looking good there coming right along.

 

[Pmt133]

So I got brave today. I didn't get quite as far as I wanted to but still good progress... See bottom of post for some thoughts.

Couple shots of how the bulk head installs for future reference...

Bulk heads are out. Note the deck sag. Trying to figure out if this is worth trying to fix. It has been this way for nearly 30 years. (as long as I can remember)

Quick cleanup on the deck. Note most of the gelcoated wood is structurally sound.

Why the heck was this part of the floor doubled up?

It was like this on both sides. Then it clicked... The boat was offered in a sport variant with dual bucket seats. That was extra bracing for the pedestal. I don't intend on replacing that. If you look at the notch out for the control box it is exactly right.

And this is where I stopped for the night. Deck is out. Next visit I plan on getting the foam out. Now, I made some observations...

• The outside stringers appear to only be tabbed in on the outside edge and it seems they are floating. They are also straight lumber not ply, probably 1"x3". I suspect this may be more a deck bracing than a structural stringer?
• The bulkhead at the rear of the fuel tank box... I plan on installing a longer fuel tank. If I make the end of the engine box bulk head structural full width (Where the new fuel tank will end, the one at the front of the engine box with the rubber pass through on it) and then just leave the outer wings further up in place, that shouldn't cause any issues, right? I probably could just omit them all together but I'd rather not move it back and not have something up there...
• Foam is not soaked everywhere. Some is wet but not like a wet sponge. So I guess the claim that the foam was closed cell is true...
• The bigger fuel tank... It will move the bulkhead back ~12 inches. The plan is to take it from a roughly 22 gallon tank up to a roughly 40 gallon tank. That seems a little more reasonable to me. The fuel capacity was always an Achilles heel of the boat... IF you went tubing you'd be out of fuel in no time with the 3.0l. The outing always was one or the other. When we were further north there weren't many fuel docks so trying to do a refuel on the water was a pain. With some extra fuel You could tube and then go to the island still. I used to carry a 7 gallon can for just that reason. Seems most boats this size now have a ~35 gallon tank. The brochure and tank are stamped at 26 gallons but I've run the thing dry and only gotten 22 gallons in it. So if I can use only ~34 gallons of a 40 gallon tank, that makes up my 7 gallon carry on plus reserve. And I sucked the tank dry before removing... there was maybe half a quart left in it. So when I ran out of fuel... I was out of fuel lol. (only time I ever was towed in by the way. That was when I found out my sending unit died and I was maybe a mile from the ramp and running back anyway.)

Enough rambling. I got work the next three days, so nothing until Monday. We have a local shop that sells supplies. I may look to price them out for the glass materials compared to US composites just to see if I can save on the shipping. Unless someone knows of anywhere cheaper, US composites seems to be the best option for everything.

Goodnight all.

 

[chevymaher]

On my 4 winns a 87. All the stringers were dimentional lumber. I replaced them as the same. I know what they say but. The dimentional lumber is wood it gets wet it is wood. Any plywood in my boat was mulch once it got wet. In my opinion the dimentional lumber holds up better.

Mine has the 27 gallon tank it is a 170 horizon and a 3 liter. I agree a bigger tank is better.

I struggled with the prices also. US Composite is about the best your gonna get. Thing that sux is they make the stuff 5 miles from my house. They will not sell it to you. They ship it to US Composits and you got to buy it there. You have to get a dealer to order and pick it up. Yea they gonna do that and loose their comission.

 

[Pmt133]

On my 4 winns a 87. All the stringers were dimentional lumber. I replaced them as the same. I know what they say but. The dimentional lumber is wood it gets wet it is wood. Any plywood in my boat was mulch once it got wet. In my opinion the dimentional lumber holds up better.

Mine has the 27 gallon tank it is a 170 horizon and a 3 liter. I agree a bigger tank is better.

I struggled with the prices also. US Composite is about the best your gonna get. Thing that sux is they make the stuff 5 miles from my house. They will not sell it to you. They ship it to US Composits and you got to buy it there. You have to get a dealer to order and pick it up. Yea they gonna do that and loose their comission.

The lumber in mine is pretty rough on the one side. I plan on putting it back as it was, so 3/4 ply for the centers and 3/4 lumber for the outside. Though, if I have the extra ply I may just use that outside as well.... We'll see.

I agree about the tank. Just don't want to cause any issues with the bulk head. 27 is pretty good and I'd have probably left it alone if I had that much. and it does seem US composites is hard to beat, I've been checking around.

 

[briangcc]

Only a suggestion, can take it or leave it....

It appears that your bow is bowing down from the weight of the windshield/steering wheel. Any way to temporarily clamp some support underneath it to help get it back to shape? Would think a 1x4 or 2x4 would be sufficient.

 

[Pmt133]

Only a suggestion, can take it or leave it....

It appears that your bow is bowing down from the weight of the windshield/steering wheel. Any way to temporarily clamp some support underneath it to help get it back to shape? Would think a 1x4 or 2x4 would be sufficient.

That bow has actually been there for some 25 years. It's one of those things I'd like to address but see no real good way of doing so. The starboard side is the better of the two, the port is actually quite low if you look at the shot. I'm afraid of causing stress cracks by jacking it up as it's been that way so long. I am open to suggestions though.

 

[briangcc]

It'll flex a little.

I only mentioned it as it appeared to droop more once the side supports were removed. Might be camera angle but something if it were me I'd be looking at.

 

[Pmt133]

Maybe a pole up in under the dash as precaution?

 

[Pmt133]

Got a question for all you... I am sitting at my desk at work right now. Quiet day, have the trainee doing his first bit of solo work so I am taking a step back for a bit. I am trying to develop my layup schedule and by doing that, estimating my materials to order. I also have been doing more reading up on procedure and I have more questions than answers as it seems everyone has an... opinion... on what way is best. I have the following "schedule" so far followed by a series of questions,:

Schedule: (Based on what seems to be most common practice after reading around and what some of the current construction in the boat is)

1. Transom
   1. bed to hull with peanut butter
   2. tab with 3 layers 1708
   3. Skin with 2 layers 1708
2. Stringers
   1. Tab 3x with 1708 at 18, 16, 14 inches total width. The total stringer height is 10 inches at the tallest part then quickly drops down form there.
   2. Cap with 1.5oz CSM down about 9 inches on each side. then again 4 inches down each side.
   3. use a single CSM tie in to the hull over the tabs to the cap to further tie it together
3. Build out bulkheads in sections and tab and cap to hull and stringers same as stringers to hull
4. Add "cleats" or strips to stringers to bolt deck to so as to no drill directly into tops of stringer. Cap with 1 layer CSM
5. Build out engine mounts
   1. 2 layers 1708 tabbing to hull and stringers
   2. 2 full encapsulations.
6. Deck
   1. 2x tabbing of 1708 to hull
   2. 1 layer CSM underneath to "water proof" floor.
   3. Bore holes and pour foam, saving cores for plugs.
   4. Plug holes
   5. Glass over deck with 2 layers CSM
   6. Hit with gelcoat.

So my questions in order of them appearing are these:
1. is 3 tabbing layers overkill for the stringers and transom?
2. is 2 full layers of 1708 adequate for the transom?
3. is the 2 caps of CSM overkill for the stringers?
4. The CSM tie from the hull tab to the cap is probably entirely overkill, right?
5. by building in bulk heads that retains stringer strength. Should these also be bedded to the stringer like the hull or should the tabbing take care of it?
6. 2 full encapsulations for the engine mounts is adequate, right?
7. The foam seems to have been poured after the deck was done originally. Could this be structural? Seems better to do it this way...
8. If foam is structural, 2lb or 4lb foam?
9. is 2 layers CSM on the top enough for water proofing with a coating of gelcoat followed by carpet on top? Will I wear through it?

I appreciate all your help and if you think I should put this in a separate thread for better response, I am all ears.

 

[Pmt133]

So I didn't do much today other than bust out some foam. I also basically answered my questions above seeing how the boat is currently constructed lol. Very clear picture with no foam. Only interesting thing, Transom appears to be a 1inch sheet of ply full width, with a 1/2 inch lamination around the keyhole... Interesting.

 

[kcon]

Sweet boat! Awesome project, and it looks like you're doing all the right things. Get ready for the tyvek suit and lots and lots of grinding. Following along excited to see it progress.