Milky fuel in carb intake force 85hp

[The Force power]

Let me know, when you find the answer; I'd like to know as well

 

[lgaytan]

I was reading the Break-in instructions from maxrules.com, and this "You must determine the reason the original powerhead failed. If the problem is not identified and corrected it is almost certain the newly rebuilt powerhead will fail. If a restricted (lean) carburetion problem caused the original powerhead to fail, the new one will also fail unless the problem is corrected. Guaranteed!" has made me thinking this time, of course I don't want this to break again.
There were 2 events in this motor life that I believe got it to fail.
#1 like 6 years ago, sand/mud got to the water pump clogged it, I didn't noticed until the outboard really overheated and seized, I opened the head at that time inspected the pistons, and noticed very minor damage, changed the gasket, torqued and retest for compression and everything seemed to worked well. So I thought this didn't damaged the pistons or anything considerably, but maybe they did get damaged.
#2 three years ago I changed the stator, and just in this recent repair I noticed I installed the timing adjustment rods backwards, I did previously some timing adjustments, but as this adjustment procedure just requires to check on WOT I could have the 28° BTDC adjusted correctly but I believe through the travel maybe it was not correctly synchronized, well that is now installed correctly.
So any thouhgts, could any of this events cause the damage on my outboard, any other thing I should be looking for before continuing to put load on it?

Thanks

 

[lgaytan]

Finally got it to the lake, not the best output, motor started no issues idled good, but it didn't reved up. No more than 1200 RPMs, I dont know what to check now, some how I think its a timing issue, I redo Frank's procedure, see if something is off.

 

[The Force power]

Verify that all Cylinders are firing
Is it bogging down? check fuel-pump/membrane

 

[lgaytan]

Thanks I will check that, previous to the rebuild I checked on spark and it was 3/8" strong, I'll recheck. Fuel pump is new and I serviced the pump as well, I don't think that is the issue, I'll take another look.
I think I have a Syncronization & Timing issue.
My doubts are on the timing, will a bad timing cause this?
Idles strong out of gear 800 RPM,s, when put to gear it lowers the RPM's to 500 but doesn't die still can run, I can increase up to 1200, and then it starts to loose power bugs down to the point it stalls, I can restart with no issues again and repeat.
Some years ago I changed the trigger and didn't took pictures before desassembling it, when doing this I also broke one of the trigger rod ends, I went to a local machine shop with the sample of the broken piece and they made one out of aluminum, it looked good at that time. Now as I didn't had pictures and I couldn't find a drawing or picture on the internet I assembled it how I felt it worked better but now I think I have this wrong.
Does anyone has a picture of how this is assembled, so I can compare to mine, I have tried 2 different ways of putting it but don't seem right either.
#1 way adjustment screw towards the block
when putting it to WOT that hits the block and the tower shaft never hits the WOT stop, it will not get fully open carbs.




#2 way Adjustment screw on the outside (this is how I think I have seen it in youtube videos)
it crashes very quickly doesn't allow to move much



Please if somebody could share a picture of how yours is assembled or an schematic of assembly would be appreciated.

BTW when trying it yesterday in the lake it was like #1 option above.

Thanks

 

[lgaytan]

I saw some pictures in the internet from what seems same motor 1989 85HP Force, and this assembly looks to be installed backwards, the adjustment screw falls under the flywhee, (I had it like that before the rebuild but thought it was worng because some other pictures I have seen in the internet of other motors, and some schematics, also felt strange that the adjusting screw is not accesible in that possition:

This are internet pictures:





This is my motor when dissassembling for rebuild



Does it seem ok in that way?

thanks

 

[The Force power]

I saw some pictures in the internet from what seems same motor 1989 85HP Force, and this assembly looks to be installed backwards, the adjustment screw falls under the flywhee, (I had it like that before the rebuild but thought it was worng because some other pictures I have seen in the internet of other motors, and some schematics, also felt strange that the adjusting screw is not accesible in that possition:

This are internet pictures:

View attachment 397542
View attachment 397543


This is my motor when dissassembling for rebuild
View attachment 397544


Does it seem ok in that way?

thanks

If it work? sure! its just harder to set/adjust the timing. (I would have the nut on the outside.)
I don't think your timing is right because there's normally more space between the two "couplers" this would explain the not enough advancing; when putting in gear

 

[lgaytan]

That picture was before the rebuild, yesterday night I put it back together in the same orientation but with the nut in the outside. I adjusted again to 28° at cranking speed.
I have read that the idle timing should not be affected and would not be needed to be adjusted, anyways what should be the idle timing? I'd like to confirm.


Thanks

 

[Nordin]

There are no timing for idling.
You set the timing at WOT the timing at idle will be what it will be.

 

[lgaytan]

Verify that all Cylinders are firing
Is it bogging down? check fuel-pump/membrane

Bad fuel pump membrane... It was new, maybe in the intallation I damaged it.

 

[The Force power]

Bad fuel pump membrane... It was new, maybe in the intallation I damaged it.

ANY small pieces of metal found inside? I've seen the check-valves fall apart & pieces tearing the membrane

 

[The Force power]

what should be the idle timing?

The Idle is controlled by the timing tower you set by adjusting the screw-bolt & lock in position with the nut

 

[lgaytan]

ANY small pieces of metal found inside? I've seen the check-valves fall apart & pieces tearing the membrane

Didn't noticed any, actually the service I did to the pump previously was changing the check-valves so I got to them.

 

[lgaytan]

Went out today again to the lake, same result ad before, it will not pass 1200 rpms and then it dies, I can run it lower RPMs for a while with out dying, I noticed that if I click the choke when it wants to die it gives it s little life so I'm focusing in the fuel pump now. I must admit I used an old diaphragm that I had there lying unprotected out of a bag, it is slightly cracked but cracks don't leak, the material feels brittle, so I will change it. I also noticed if I suck through the fuel intake of the pump I can have a little flow like if the check valve is not completely closing, will change that and the filter gasket as well.

 

[Nordin]

If the diaphragm is brittle and slightly cracked fuel will leak through and it will not pump sufficiently.

 

[gica]

When you rebuilt the motor did you open all the covers? Like exhaust? Did you make sure the cover is not warped? My engine, a 120 was running like **** and dying at idle, had to run it at higher idle to stay in gear and not die. I was getting water in the cylinder chambers. But I was getting 4200RPM. I have twin 120s so it is easier if I run them together, if I ran just the one engine I could only get up to 10mph and it was bogging all the way.
This was after rebuild. The cover was way off at 0.020in in warping. I used a special stone and brought it back to straight at 0.002. I am wating for parts to get it back i the water.
You said you had leak from the head gasket, that's not good maybe the head is warped. Could be ok but these are small things that make a difference.
The carbs might also still be dirty. Recirculation also could hacve some dirt.
You did rebuild them and check the floats for right functionality. The screen at the fuel pump you didn't mention it was cleaned. Hose clamped etc. Most of these don't matter in the big picture but 1200RPM and that's it is not good. Mine is at 4400 and I also bought 2 new props from 19 down to 15 to get the 5200 or so hopefully. The timing is at wot with engine off cranking timing 28BTDC. Measure the stator and trigger as per CDI electronics guides. It is weird that you don't get more RPM. I mean can't you test at home in a small plastic tank and see if you get more RPM when you adjust the idle screw in. It should give you more than 1200 at idle.

 

[lgaytan]

When you rebuilt the motor did you open all the covers? Like exhaust? Did you make sure the cover is not warped? My engine, a 120 was running like **** and dying at idle, had to run it at higher idle to stay in gear and not die. I was getting water in the cylinder chambers. But I was getting 4200RPM. I have twin 120s so it is easier if I run them together, if I ran just the one engine I could only get up to 10mph and it was bogging all the way.
This was after rebuild. The cover was way off at 0.020in in warping. I used a special stone and brought it back to straight at 0.002. I am wating for parts to get it back i the water.
You said you had leak from the head gasket, that's not good maybe the head is warped. Could be ok but these are small things that make a difference.
The carbs might also still be dirty. Recirculation also could hacve some dirt.
You did rebuild them and check the floats for right functionality. The screen at the fuel pump you didn't mention it was cleaned. Hose clamped etc. Most of these don't matter in the big picture but 1200RPM and that's it is not good. Mine is at 4400 and I also bought 2 new props from 19 down to 15 to get the 5200 or so hopefully. The timing is at wot with engine off cranking timing 28BTDC. Measure the stator and trigger as per CDI electronics guides. It is weird that you don't get more RPM. I mean can't you test at home in a small plastic tank and see if you get more RPM when you adjust the idle screw in. It should give you more than 1200 at idle.

Hi gica,
I didn't open exhaust or intake covers didn't wanted to mess with it, in muff or tank I can get 1600 RPMs in neutral not in gear just idle acceleration, I didnt try with gear on because my tank is to small and all water be gone and muffs I believe is no good to do it. I missed some basic stuff in the pump I will be focusing on it, one hose comming from the block in the bottom I belive is suction was not clamped and the hose looks cracked, might be leaking, the screen in the filter was little bit dirty not too much but I now cleaned it, as mentioned in previous post the membrane was and old reused that feels hard brittle and was slightly cracked, I think it cracked because of the brittleness because I didn't noticed before, lastly when I suck through the filter in I can get some air so I think the check valve or seal there is not working properly. I will focus in detail in the pump at this time, I just wish I could try it at home and not having to go to the lake thatt is 1.5 hrs from here to find out, do you have any suggestions for that? .

Thanks for the input

 

[gica]

Hi gica,
I didn't open exhaust or intake covers didn't wanted to mess with it, in muff or tank I can get 1600 RPMs in neutral not in gear just idle acceleration, I didnt try with gear on because my tank is to small and all water be gone and muffs I believe is no good to do it. I missed some basic stuff in the pump I will be focusing on it, one hose comming from the block in the bottom I belive is suction was not clamped and the hose looks cracked, might be leaking, the screen in the filter was little bit dirty not too much but I now cleaned it, as mentioned in previous post the membrane was and old reused that feels hard brittle and was slightly cracked, I think it cracked because of the brittleness because I didn't noticed before, lastly when I suck through the filter in I can get some air so I think the check valve or seal there is not working properly. I will focus in detail in the pump at this time, I just wish I could try it at home and not having to go to the lake thatt is 1.5 hrs from here to find out, do you have any suggestions for that? .

Thanks for the input

I think you can remove the gear engaging cable and try to put it in your tank at idle and accelerate without going in gear briefly to see if it goes up in RPM. I had the same issue in the parking hose it ran great in the lake it would die in gear unless I set RPM screw at max. Went there3 or 4 times. It is pretty annoying.
And then I founf the water in number 4 on the piston.Ipened up exhaust and there was milky residue on 3 and 4. I had to resurface the exhUst cover, I got new gaskets and a separation plate, and I got another head just in case. I hope that ot will seal the area andnothave any leaks.
But I was getting 4200 RPM in gear but only withy twin engine on, without it was a mess. Since you only have one engine it is different. But remove the shif cable and keave the throttle and see if it accelerates passed 1600 briefly and clean. You shouldn't cause any harm with short bursts. I am.surprisedyou don't have a bipassbutton at the remote to pushin andonly use the remote to warm it up without engaging. My friend's 96 force has that. I don't because mine is a twin engine

 

[lgaytan]

I think you can remove the gear engaging cable and try to put it in your tank at idle and accelerate without going in gear briefly to see if it goes up in RPM. I had the same issue in the parking hose it ran great in the lake it would die in gear unless I set RPM screw at max. Went there3 or 4 times. It is pretty annoying.
And then I founf the water in number 4 on the piston.Ipened up exhaust and there was milky residue on 3 and 4. I had to resurface the exhUst cover, I got new gaskets and a separation plate, and I got another head just in case. I hope that ot will seal the area andnothave any leaks.
But I was getting 4200 RPM in gear but only withy twin engine on, without it was a mess. Since you only have one engine it is different. But remove the shif cable and keave the throttle and see if it accelerates passed 1600 briefly and clean. You shouldn't cause any harm with short bursts. I am.surprisedyou don't have a bipassbutton at the remote to pushin andonly use the remote to warm it up without engaging. My friend's 96 force has that. I don't because mine is a twin engine

Thanks, maybe I didnt explained myself very well, I can pull the throttle lever to accelerate without engaging the gears, this is I guess a function for cold starts, in that way I can accelerate up to 1600 RPM's that is the maximum it allows me to do with this function, everything looks good there with the hose or tank, very different in the lake. Now also I don't know how important is but my home is 4900 feet above sea level and the lake I use to go is roughly 1500, I usually have more issues starting it in the lake than at home, settings should be different I guess for this different altitudes.

 

[Nordin]

Main jet for sea level-2500 FT should be 0,074.
2500-5000 FT should be 0,072.
It will not run well with a too small main jet.
I do not know if this have anything to do with your issue, but it will run lean with a 0,072 at lower sea level.
Think your main issue is water intrusion in 3 and 4 cylinder.