Merc Outboard - 2 Year Old Engine Failure, 5 Year Extended Warranty Denied

[racerone]

Agreed-----I have seen 4 strokes at a dealer where you could look in one side of the block and out the other.----Scrap.------An item like a crankshaft and flywheel when spinning fast , do not like to change position.------Tough on those bearings in wavy conditions..

 

[jengel]

It's doubtful there's any stored codes for it. The ECU on your Mercury engine is pretty basic, it is not near as sophisticated as modern automotive systems. It will log a hard sensor fault, but not something like a bent rod.

If you have not been in contact with the shop that did the winterizing, and they don't know about it, just wander in and ask sort of nonchalant what's involved with winterizing your four-stroke outboard. See if you can get some info on what procedure they use, find out if they do things like spraying fogging oil in a running engine and flood it with oil until it quits.

And keep in mind these engines are not tough like the old two-strokes. I mean, the local Mercury dealer here has a stack of four-stroke power heads on a pallet that has failed either under warranty or not - everything from tossed rods and a hole in the block, dropped valves, bent rods, pistons that broke and the small end of the rod beat the crap out of the cylinder and busted it, and every single one they blame on water getting in the exhaust, or water getting in the oil. About a month ago I was there and looking at one that tossed a rod - it was a 90 but this is the same powerhead you got. They said it tossed the rod because water got in the oil. Cripes, I could see thru the hole in the block that the big end of the rod was still on the crank journal - the rod bearing had not failed. The rod beam broke and the crank flung it thru the block. I've been building engines for better than 40 years, and I'm not quite that gullible. I pointed this out to the tech standing there. Oh no, they teach 'em right in service school in Fon Du Lac that if it breaks, water got in.

Mercury cheapened their modern four-strokes up to get the weight down so they can claim they're 20 lbs lighter (or whatever) than their competitors. They are very fragile (and complex and expensive) pieces of machinery and it don't take much to break one, compared to what we've had before the great four-stroke craze in the early part of the last decade.

Admittedly, a bent rod is not Mercury's fault unless it was caused by an injector that stuck open and filled the cylinder with gasoline (and I've seen that too). But I hate to tell you that these engines are very chincy-built just to get the weight down, compared to something like a Honda four-stroke. The Mercury Boys will tell you a Honda is SLOW because it's so heavy - they teach 'em that in service school too. But if you can break a Honda outboard it was likely in a crash on the highway, and not on the lake.

Well, I didn't do that much research before I picked engines. We were more worried about getting all of the goodies on the boat that we wanted like black out rails, power Bimini, lighted cupholders, subwoofer, etc. Unfortunately, I picked the Merc because of the "better" (longer) warranty. Guess I made a mistake. This is a large pontoon I could care less about top end - I didn't get a tow hook on it for a reason - I don't intend to pull tubes or race anyone. A heavier Honda would look great on it right now, and I'd still be out on the water this week, when temps are in the 90's, instead of reading boating forums trying how to figure out how to get some help with an unexpected $9,000 plus repair bill for a failure that I can still only guess as to how it happened. I wrote Merc a long letter accepting that the failure is not covered by warranty, but asking if there was anything they could do to help. A small discount on the $6,000 powerhead, a coupon for 10% off, a free foam cupholder, etc. Nothing. Crickets. It's been over a week and not even the courtesy of a reply. They are experiencing record profitability and haven't offered anything to a customer in need of a helping hand. That tells me all I need to know about the Company. I will never buy one again. I haven't been trying to badmouth them, but a neighbor just got a $100,000 Premier tri-toon. It's mostly black, and he was going to put a Merc on it because it looked like it was made to hang a black engine on the back. He ended up dropping the motor size down to 250 hp and going with a Honda instead of the larger Merc when he heard what I was dealing with. Seriously, he changed his order once he heard my story - didn't want to take a chance on a $100,000 investment. I know I never will again.

By the way, is there any way to verify if injectors are leaking? Do they get swapped out or reused when you put a new powerhead in? I don't want to go through this a second time if the new powerhead fails and I have to prove that it was not my fault this time. I'm strongly considering just scrapping this engine and selling the lower unit and hydraulics and buying a new Honda or Yamaha instead. It's about $6,000 more to repower with a new engine. I don't want to spend my summer trying to disassemble and part out the one I have though.

 

[chris.olson]

ate you talking about the same 2100cc engine ? Keen to hear more about this.

Yes, the 2.1L four-cylinder. The system logs hard faults for cylinder misfire, fuel pump output, idle air control, the warning horn, ignition, tach, temp, steering override (if equipped) and injector pulse. It also provides outputs for various sensors for diagnostic purposes if you have a no-start, derate issue, or intermittent problem.

In marine there is no standard like there is in automotive with ODB. So you have to have the software and diagnostic tools for every brand you work on.

 

[chris.olson]

A heavier Honda would look great on it right now, and I'd still be out on the water this week, when temps are in the 90's, instead of reading boating forums trying how to figure out how to get some help with an unexpected $9,000 plus repair bill for a failure that I can still only guess as to how it happened.

Seriously, if it's not under warranty (and I doubt it is gonna be covered because Mercury doesn't care), why not buy an aftermarket rebuilt powerhead for it? I've seen the 2.1L powerheads for in the $2,500 range as long as you have a good core that doesn't have a hole in the block or a broken cylinder. It's still gonna hurt financially, but a two-year old running engine is marketable as a trade-in on a new Honda or Yamaha. You're paying premium price for what is a warranty-repaired replacement powerhead from Mercury.

 

[jengel]

I agree on the aftermarket powerhead idea. I need to revisit my options.

 

[chris.olson]

By the way, is there any way to verify if injectors are leaking? Do they get swapped out or reused when you put a new powerhead in? I don't want to go through this a second time if the new powerhead fails and I have to prove that it was not my fault this time.

Yes, they can be tested. But typically if the dealer has an engine that's flooding they're going to throw in a whole new set of injectors and you're gonna get a $2,700 bill. And they're gonna tell you water got in the fuel and that's what caused it. Or sometimes they'll blame it on E10 gas, even though the engine is certified for E10. They learn all this in service school.

The new powerhead will come bare. All the electronics, manifolds, injectors, etc have to be transferred from the old one.

Welcome to the world of boats where even a minor repair on a modern four-stroke is at least a $1,500 bill at the marina.

You could put an old Kiekhaefer Tower of Power inline-six on it, have one of the coolest outboards on the lake and it'll still probably be running 50 years from now.

 

[jengel]

Welcome to the world of boats where even a minor repair on a modern four-stroke is at least a $1,500 bill at the marina.

I'm not new to boating. I am new to a mysterious engine failures on a 2 year old motor with 3 years left of a 5 year warranty. I've had pontoons, wakeboard boats, fishing boats, runabouts, personal watercraft, motorcyles and many snowmobiles and understand the cost of ownership. I just don't expect it on my newest and under warranty motor.

 

[racerone]

Round of applause for the above post.-------Friends have an inline 6 model 115 HP .----A sweet running motor.------Yes they use more fuel , a bit noisier.-----Cheaper to own and maintain.

 

[Lou C]

Agreed I'm a fan of old school power be it 2 stroke outboards or GM cast iron inboards. Cheap to buy, cheap to repair, easy to understand, no special tools needed, etc. Ya just gotta be a bit of a backyard mechanic.

 

[QBhoy]

Yes, the 2.1L four-cylinder. The system logs hard faults for cylinder misfire, fuel pump output, idle air control, the warning horn, ignition, tach, temp, steering override (if equipped) and injector pulse. It also provides outputs for various sensors for diagnostic purposes if you have a no-start, derate issue, or intermittent problem.

In marine there is no standard like there is in automotive with ODB. So you have to have the software and diagnostic tools for every brand you work on.

Yeah. I’ve got one on one of the boats currently. Great engines. I personally think merc should be commended for their new and revolutionary approach to the creation of such engines. I’ve put 1100 hours on mine without fault, so far.
Love an old 2 stroke…but they are also lightly built too perhaps. Even the best of them. An old Yamaha v4 or v6 will cost in excess of £2000 or more…just for parts alone. And no way of dealing with a compromised head or two. You can’t skim them at all. I suppose modern ways are just what they are.
Mercs latest engines and idea is to go larger displacement and a new high pressure casting process, resulting in less weight. Good on them, I say.

 

[chris.olson]

I'm not new to boating. I am new to a mysterious engine failures on a 2 year old motor with 3 years left of a 5 year warranty. I've had pontoons, wakeboard boats, fishing boats, runabouts, personal watercraft, motorcyles and many snowmobiles and understand the cost of ownership. I just don't expect it on my newest and under warranty motor.

That's understandable. But at the same time realize a bent rod is not Mercury's fault (short of an injector failure) - something hydraulic locked it to cause that.

So really, this gets down to the dealership. You haven't asked why if it's got a bent rod they don't just replace the rod and piston and get it running again? Why do they immediately want to replace the entire $6,000 powerhead for a bent $250 rod? Because then the dealership has to stand behind it and they don't want that liability. If it was mine, and I didn't have the capability to repair it myself, I would go to the service manager and demand to know why they are trying to sell you a complete powerhead for a simple bent rod and the labor to replace it.

 

[chris.olson]

Yeah. I’ve got one on one of the boats currently. Great engines. I personally think merc should be commended for their new and revolutionary approach to the creation of such engines.

New and revolutionary? Mercury's design is all borrowed automotive technology with single overhead cams (instead of DOHC) to save weight and two valves per cylinder with a super light duty bottom end and slipper-skirt automotive style pistons. Their machining processes are so poor, and the block so light duty, that they have color coded bearing inserts to fit the bearing to the block and get the right clearance on the main bearings.

It would seem to me that it would be cheaper to build a more consistent block and improve the machining to fit either a standard or undersize (for a ground crank) bearing. But no, Mercury builds a bunch of different color coded bearings instead because what fits in one engine doesn't fit in the next one off the press.

Total junk.

Mercury Marine used to build some of the finest outboards on the planet when the company was owned and run by engineers. The company today (Brunswick) is run by marketing people and corporate penny pinchers. Carl Kiekhaefer would turn over in his grave if he was able to see what it has become.

 

[jimmbo]

Oh, Kiekhaefer has been doing 10,000 in there for a few decades

 

[racerone]

I take one look at these new 4 strokes and chuckle.----Who is going to rebuild this mess of parts supplied to the factory by the lowest bidder.

 

[1960 Starflite]

You could put an old Kiekhaefer Tower of Power inline-six on it, have one of the coolest outboards on the lake and it'll still probably be running 50 years from now.

I have a 47 year old Kiekhaefer 850 on my 1979 Harris FloteBoat. I'll cruise to the Good ole Boys Bar and have a beer with you

 

[boscoe99]

This does not seem to be a matter of abuse, operator error or the quality of the motor. It falls into the category of sh1t happens. Happens to us all.

Not the motors fault, not Mercury's fault, not the OP's fault. It just is what it is.

Hopefully a lesson can be learned so that action can be taken to prevent this from happening again in the future.

 

[boscoe99]

New and revolutionary? Mercury's design is all borrowed automotive technology with single overhead cams (instead of DOHC) to save weight and two valves per cylinder with a super light duty bottom end and slipper-skirt automotive style pistons. Their machining processes are so poor, and the block so light duty, that they have color coded bearing inserts to fit the bearing to the block and get the right clearance on the main bearings.

It would seem to me that it would be cheaper to build a more consistent block and improve the machining to fit either a standard or undersize (for a ground crank) bearing. But no, Mercury builds a bunch of different color coded bearings instead because what fits in one engine doesn't fit in the next one off the press.

What piston engine maker does not use bearings of different thicknesses so as to compensate for manufacturing tolerances? So as to obtain the propeller clearances.

Those are not bearing inserts. They are the bearings themselves. Color coded instead of being described by thickness.

What piston motor maker does not use bearings of different thicknesses in order to obtain the desired clearance between parts?

 

[boscoe99]

That's understandable. But at the same time realize a bent rod is not Mercury's fault (short of an injector failure) - something hydraulic locked it to cause that.

So really, this gets down to the dealership. You haven't asked why if it's got a bent rod they don't just replace the rod and piston and get it running again? Why do they immediately want to replace the entire $6,000 powerhead for a bent $250 rod? Because then the dealership has to stand behind it and they don't want that liability. If it was mine, and I didn't have the capability to repair it myself, I would go to the service manager and demand to know why they are trying to sell you a complete powerhead for a simple bent rod and the labor to replace it.

Because if a force was great enough to bend a rod there is more than likely considerable other damage. To the bearings, to the crankshaft, etc.

It is the modus operandi today to replace assemblies. The short block assembly for instance. Too much time and risk to dismantle same so as to replace some component parts.

Certainly the OP is able to give direction to the dealer to have this done. The dealer can then accept or refuse the task. If refused, the OP is free to take the motor to any repair shop of his choosing that will do the repair work for the OP.

 

[jengel]

This does not seem to be a matter of abuse, operator error or the quality of the motor. It falls into the category of sh1t happens. Happens to us all.

Not the motors fault, not Mercury's fault, not the OP's fault. It just is what it is.

Hopefully a lesson can be learned so that action can be taken to prevent this from happening again in the future.

You are not wrong. Here is the reallity. The engine failed. Merc can't prove what caused it, so they can't prove that a leaky injector or something similar hadn't caused it. I surely can't prove anything, I'm just a consumer. But, it's my fault unless I can prove that it isn't? But I do understand that typically, these types of failures are due to water ingestion due to some "operator error" so I guess they just blame all of these failures on the operator, and since this is usually true, it's become the standard. And people just have to accept it.

At this point, my frustration with Merc's silence. I have sent inquiries asking if there is anyting they would be willing to do to help me with this unfortunate situation, and they have not responded. The boating season is slipping away, I need to get a $10,000 loan to pay for the repairs and Merc is unwililng to even respond to my emails? They may decide that they don't want to do anything to help me out at all, but at least get back to me so I can move forward. I asked if they could help by giving me a discount on a new $6,000 powerhead. That would be a nice gesture. No reply. I'm still paying off the loan on my two year old boat and engine, and now I have to take out another loan to repair my engine. Would it be really devastating to Merc if they helped out and maybe didn't expect to make their full retail markup on the $6,000 plus replacement powerhead? I can't believe they don't even seem willing to do that for me.

 

[chris.olson]

Because if a force was great enough to bend a rod there is more than likely considerable other damage. To the bearings, to the crankshaft, etc.

Doesn't take much to bend a rod in one of these engines. Yeah, the piston skirts hits the crank counterweights and that's what makes the "ticking" noise. But as long as nothing breaks off and comes flying thru the block the engine is rebuildable. As it is, if the OP buys the powerhead from Mercury it will be a reman. His old engine goes back to Mercury as a core, they'll fix it and sell it to somebody else as a factory reman.

I'm afraid the OP's options are limited. If it was mine I'd tell the dealer to put it all in a box and I want it back. Buy a used piston and rod off eBay (people are selling 'em out of blown powerheads that are being parted out), put it back together and get it running, then trade it on a Honda or Yamaha. On a party barge I'd probably put a Honda on it because they are super-smooth and quiet and who cares how fast it goes.

For someone who can't rebuild the engine, then you're limited to buying a remanufactured powerhead for it.

You can go to the service manager at the dealership and demand to know why they won't fix it, and instead want to sell a reman powerhead. They'll feed you a line about why they can't do that, but the real reason is because if they put it back together then they own it if it fails again.