Merc Outboard - 2 Year Old Engine Failure, 5 Year Extended Warranty Denied

[jimmbo]

Not all Shops/Mechanics are Ethical/Competent

 

[boscoe99]

Throttle bodies and the inner walls of a cylinder and the piston rings get the least amount of lubrication. Therefore they are prone to corroding more quickly than other engine components. Fogging oils formulated to be compatible with engines having fuel injection should not be a problem to any components of the intake air system.

I am not finding any that say do not use in an EFI motor.

 

[chris.olson]

It appears your beating a dead horse. That said it will be interesting to see what’s in the letter they send. I wouldn’t be surprised if a copy of the warranty is included.

Mercury Marine is not gonna cover it, we already know that. I hope the OP got the old engine back. It can be fixed with a new or used piston and rod and some gaskets in a day. Sold online he could recover just about all the cost of his replacement powerhead. If the dealer claims it had to go back to Merc for core, then the OP got a reman and he got hosed on it on the price.

If the dealer claims they already threw it out in the scrap and they don't have it anymore, I call BS on that one - one of the mechanics likely walked off with it, will fix it and sell it for 4-5 Grand.

If that old engine was not retured to Mercury for core, the OP needs to get it back. Even if he can't fix it himself, take it to somebody who can and recover the costs on it. As long as it doesn't have a hole in the block that engine is repairable.

 

[jimmbo]

I am not finding any that say do not use in an EFI motor.

I would have no hesitation using it on the following Engines, EFI or Carbed"
2 Stroke Outboards of the Non DFI type.
Stern Drives, without Cats

 

[chris.olson]

I would have no hesitation using it on the following Engines, EFI or Carbed"
2 Stroke Outboards of the Non DFI type.
Stern Drives, without Cats

The thing is, it doesn't make any difference what fogging oil was sprayed into where, you have to prove it. Mercury will stick to the water ingestion thing no matter what as far as any warranty coverage on the powerhead.

I know from working on that 90 with a 2.1L last year that Mercury will not honor their Limited Warranty for a blown powerhead. They like to sell their extended Platinum and Gold warranty, but you are SOL if you blow a powerhead. They will blame it on either water getting in the exhaust or ethanol in the gas. BTDT.

The 90 that I fixed was about $500 in parts. You do run the risk, when putting in used or new parts that didn't come out of it, of not getting the clearances right on the crank journals. I lucked out and got .0015 on the rod bearing which was "good enough". And the used rod I got was too tight on the side clearance and had to machine a bit off the rod big end to get it to fit. But if you have to order their goofy black, brown or blue color-coded bearing inserts it can take two months to get them.

That's why I hope the OP got his old powerhead back. It's repairable. As it is, I have zero respect for any dealer that will replace an entire powerhead assy because of a bent rod, just so they don't have to stand behind it.

 

[boscoe99]

Dealers are not machine shops/engine rebuild shops. I don't blame them a bit for not wanting to repair a power plant. Takes up too much of their time. Too much uncertainty for them.

 

[chris.olson]

Dealers are not machine shops/engine rebuild shops. I don't blame them a bit for not wanting to repair a power plant. Takes up too much of their time. Too much uncertainty for them.

Really? So we have factory certified techs that are certified to do what? Replace assemblies? Anybody can do that. The purpose of factory certified techs is to provide full service and repair for what the manufacturer sells. You can darn well know that if the powerhead had a warrantable internal failure or defect that the dealer is going to tear it down and fix it because Mercury will only ship out the defective part, and additional parts needed to reassemble it. And they will only pay the labor at flat-rate on warranty, direct from their flat-rate manual.

Cripes, I saw a 50EFI on a Tracker 16ft that had a fuel pump failure and the busted pieces of the fuel pump ended up inside the crankcase. They had to tear that one down to get the busted fuel pump pieces out, including pulling all the pistons and rods and cleaning the block to find a small pin that ended up in one of the oil galleries. Mercury did not replace the whole powerhead for that one - all they warrantied was the fuel pump, shop supplies and 8.6 hours labor to tear it down and put it back together. If it took the tech 12.0 hours to do it, tough - all Mercury pays is the 8.6.

So I'm not buying the "excuse".

 

[jengel]

Guys, I got this reply from Mercury today. I had asked them if they would please provide me with a copy of my file including photos, details on the tests they performed and support for their findings. They refused to provide me anything but the summary below. I would think if you were going to deny a warranty for a guy with a 2-year old motor and 3 years left of a 5-year warranty, you would at least provide him with details to help him determine the cause of the failure. This is pretty much on par with what I have come to expect from Merc, which is the bare minimum that the law requires.

Here is what they said:

Your dealer should be able to supply you with a written copy of their work order showing details of their inspection. The dealer found water on the bottom spark plug. Mercury Marine had the dealer clear the cylinder of water and run water through the flushing attachments with the spark plugs removed to look for water entering the cylinders through the flush port. No water entered the oil sump or the cylinders, indicating water entered through the intake or the exhaust. Mercury Marine also had the dealer pull the flywheel, provide photos of the keyway, pull the head, and measure piston height to verify if there was a bent rod. It was found that the #4 cylinder was not reaching top dead center, indicating a bent rod. Water is an incompressible fluid when it is in liquid form. If water is present in the cylinder in sufficient quantities during a compression stroke, it will cause the piston to stop moving before it reaches top dead center. This is referred to as hydro-lock. The crankshaft can have enough momentum to keep the piston rod moving upward even though the piston has hydro-locked. This can bend the connecting rods and ultimately severely damage the engine.

So, let’s recap. I pulled the boat out last Fall and it was running great. I had it winterized and stored it indoors (engine vertical). In the Spring, I picked the boat up, washed it and launched it, and immediately noticed a strange ticking/knocking noise. So, how did water get in the engine? I have concluded that it would have basically been impossible for water to have entered by launching due to the engine getting too deep. I videotaped the boat being launched several times once I got it back from being repaired, and the high-water mark was well more than a foot below the lowest cylinder. We backed it in very slowly with my wife driving the truck (nervously and slowly) so we didn’t force water up the exhaust from going too quickly. Also, it never rained in on the day my boat was winterized and stored, or when I picked up my boat until I launched it this Spring (verified with on-line almanac). I did wash the boat off with a hose (mostly on the inside) to get rid of dust and grime, but never had the cover off the engine (at least until I got it back and was trying to figure out the source of the strange knocking). Could any of that had introduced enough water to blow the engine? Other theories?

If water had been ingested when I launched it, would there still be water in the engine after running it for 5 – 10 minutes (in short 30 – 60 second spurts) while I searched for the cause of the knocking? I ran it for a few minutes at the landing before pulling it out, and back at home with water muffs as I looked for the cause of the failure. The dealer didn’t even look at the boat until 2 weeks later, and nearly a month before they tore it down, so could water still be in the cylinder at that time? I would expect it would have been burned/flushed out by then.

I am trying to determine if the failure was due to water ingestion, or could be other fluids in the cylinder like gas (leaky injector), fogging fluid, motor oil, etc. I want to make sure that the diagnosis makes sense, and if it was water, how in the world it could have gotten there.

So, was the hydro locking caused by water ingestion? Could water still be in the cylinder after running it for several minutes after the initial failure? If so, given what I know to have happened, what was the mostly likely cause of the failure?

Thank you for your help. I've given up on getting any relief from anyone on this, but for peace of mind I would like to know what caused it if nothing more, to make sure I avoid it in the future.

Oh, and for those of you who say this would be covered by your boat owner's policy, who is your insurance with? It's not covered by Farmers.

 

[jimmbo]

"The dealer found water on the bottom spark plug."
Is there any Mention of water pouring out when Plug was removed? The cylinder should have been full at the point where the Piston stopped, and would have poured out as the plug was removed. A droplet or two on the plug is not conclusive proof of a Hydro Lock.
Water is a Product of Combustion, and can condense on a plug if the engine only fires a couple of time when cold.

 

[jengel]

Cylinder never "stopped". It just made a bad clicking/ticking/knocking sound (which was the bent rod hitting the inside of the piston). I ran it for several minutes like this. The water didn't prove it hydro locked, the bent rod did. They are saying that after the fact (nearly a month), water in the cylinder proved water ingestion was the cause. I just can't imagine there would have still been water in the cylinder after running it for several minutes, but that's why I'm asking.

 

[jimmbo]

A leaky head gasket, can put water on to the Spark Plug, and can also put enough water into the cylinder to hydro lock it.
Perhaps you need to retain some Legal Council on this

 

[racerone]

When you " washed " it after storage is there a possibility that water entered and flooded the inside of the cowling ?-----Note-----We are all guessing as to what happened here.

 

[jengel]

Could it have happened when I washed it? Possibly? I guess I need to take off the cowling and see where the vents are and if they are directly above the air intakes on the engine. You'd think they would design them so this wasn't an issues.

 

[chris.olson]

Cylinder never "stopped". It just made a bad clicking/ticking/knocking sound (which was the bent rod hitting the inside of the piston).

Actually, the piston skirt hits the crank counterweights because the rod is shortened.

What you got is Mercury's "standard reply", otherwise known as the "universal excuse". There's always gonna be a few drops of water from condensation from an engine that never warmed up. Chances are if they inspected the crankcase you're gonna find a few drops of water collected in there too. When the oil gets up to operating temp, collected water boils off as steam.

Your engine did not lock and bend a rod from water. Especially from washing it. Take a good look at the airbox on the throttle body. You would have to fill the entire cowling with water to get in the throttle body. And let's say you actually did that. When you hit the key it will come up hard and stall the starter. Then you hit the key again and it will bend the rod.

Based on your sequence of events I would say it's 99% safe to assume it happened during the winterization process.

 

[chris.olson]

@jengel did you ever find out what the disposition is of your old engine? If it was not returned to Mercury for core (due a reman installed on your outboard) I would definitely try to get it back. Even if you can't fix it yourself and resell it, there's plenty of independent shops that will do it for you. That powerhead is worth quite bit of money and could help ease the pain of your repair bill. When they come from Mercury they come stripped - just the shortblock and head and it's not that heavy. You can carry the shortblock from the shop out to your car.

 

[jengel]

@jengel did you ever find out what the disposition is of your old engine? If it was not returned to Mercury for core (due a reman installed on your outboard) I would definitely try to get it back. Even if you can't fix it yourself and resell it, there's plenty of independent shops that will do it for you. That powerhead is worth quite bit of money and could help ease the pain of your repair bill. When they come from Mercury they come stripped - just the shortblock and head and it's not that heavy. You can carry the shortblock from the shop out to your car.

I didn't take it at the time, but called back a few days later based on feedback from the forum. Was told they didn't have it. I am sure they got paid for it though.

 

[chris.olson]

I didn't take it at the time, but called back a few days later based on feedback from the forum. Was told they didn't have it. I am sure they got paid for it though.

Hmmm....... that is not acceptable unless you got a factory reman, in which case the price should've been around $4,000, not $6,200. If they sent a new production powerhead, that old powerhead is yours and it is inexcusable to claim "they don't have it". I would not let that one go and I'd be pounding on the service manager's desk, demanding to know where it went. It is your right under the law to get replaced parts returned to you, doesn't matter what type of repair shop it is.

Edit:
Assuming you got a new production powerhead, and not a reman, I can almost guarantee where that powerhead went - one of the mechanics ended up with it. They'll fix it for $250 and make $4 Grand on it on the side.

 

[jengel]

Just an update. It's been 19 days since the MN Attorney General has gotten involved. They requested a response from Merc within 10 days, but we have received nothing. I had previously requested a copy of my file at Merc, the tests they had the dealer perform and documentation of how they supported the conclusion that it was water that caused the hydro-locking. They refused - told me to talk to my dealer. I was hoping that the Attorney General's involvement might help encourage them to at least cooperate with that request for info, but nothing but crickets from Merc.

As I stated previously, my dealer didn't deny the warranty claim, Merc did. My dealer just performed a small set of tests that Mercury authorized them to perform and relayed the results. Merc made the final (and in this case, only determination that mattered). But, they won't provide me with that info. I totally disagree that the hydro-locking was caused by water, but their conclusion virtually eliminates winterization as the cause. So, they have kind of painted me into a corner. I know from my test launches that I videoed that it didn't occur there. So, I guess I have to believe that someone took the cover off my engine the one night it was in my driveway when I picked it up from storage, removed the plug, filled the cylinder with water, and then closed it all up? Yeah, sounds reasonable. Clearly a case of operator error.

I wrote Mercury back this weekend stating why I do not accept them pointing me to my dealer for documentation. I will let you know what I hear. All I have been asking for is documentation, not asking for payment, free parts, admission of liability, etc. I'll post more if anything changes, but Merc's clearly gone into full denial and hinderance mode now.

Oh, and explain to me why I should be happy with the level of customer service? Maybe it was naïve to think Merc would cover this or even give me a small discount on the $6,400 power head I had to buy to repair my engine. But to refuse to even provide me with documentation of the tests, photos and conclusions that they performed? I know some of you will say that this is typical. That may be true, but it's a FAR cry from being acceptable in my book.

 

[FLATHEAD]

Take Merc to court. Unless you can prove that water didn’t enter the motor your toast. Merc certified techs did the inspection and said it did. I doubt at this point continuing to nip at heels will do much good. Good luck though!