Merc Outboard - 2 Year Old Engine Failure, 5 Year Extended Warranty Denied

QBhoy

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I don't have the boat - it's been at the dealer ever since the failure. They completely tore it down and so I am kind of at their mercy. I have a copy of all the pictures which I requested to help with my insurance claim, but don't think there is anything I can do at this point.
Such a shame. Hope it works out for you. Normally amazing engines, these things. I’ve 1100 trouble free hours on mine currently
 

jengel

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Such a shame. Hope it works out for you. Normally amazing engines, these things. I’ve 1100 trouble free hours on mine currently
I appreciate the sentiment. I am really starting to understand that my experience is rare, which given this is so infrequent, not sure why Merc wouldn't be a little more willing to try and help me out. It's not like they are opening themselves up to a tidal wave of warranty claims. I'm a bit disappointed to be honest.
 

racerone

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Have you compared the bent rod to the others in the engine ?-----Inspected bearings and valves ?
 

jengel

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No. I don't have access to it. It's taken apart at the dealer waiting for new powerhead. I'm not a mechanic so kind of at the mercy of my dealer.
 

jengel

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Have you compared the bent rod to the others in the engine ?-----Inspected bearings and valves ?
No. I don't have access to it. It's taken apart at the dealer waiting for new powerhead. I'm not a mechanic so kind of at the mercy of my dealer.
 

jimmbo

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If it was fine before Winterizing, and upon first start up, it was Knocking, what happened in between? I suspect we will never hear what really happened. Insurance companies will cover Impacts but I haven't heard of them covering Ingestion, except in cases of Sinking or Capsizing
 

jengel

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If it was fine before Winterizing, and upon first start up, it was Knocking, what happened in between? I suspect we will never hear what really happened. Insurance companies will cover Impacts but I haven't heard of them covering Ingestion, except in cases of Sinking or Capsizing
Yeah, unfortunately all I can do is come up with theories. Hoping there is an angle where insurance will cover the most likely (although even that is questionable) that the engine got dunked.
 

FLATHEAD

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The engine would need to have been totally submerged fully and the back of the boat still strapped down to the trailer, you’d think.
My initial thought as well. If not a forgotten strap , perhaps something somehow got tangled up and held the boat to the trailer till the toons pulled it loose ?
 

jengel

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I don't use straps on my pontoon unless I'm going a long distance - definitely not this time - and nothing got hung up. Very basic launch. Only thing that was unusual was the sound the engine made when I started it. But my understanding is that the engine doesn't need to be submerged, only that the lowest cylinder is below the water line when the engine is started (which may not be as deep as you would think). Other than that, I'm running out of options/ideas. Wish I would of started the boat when I picked it up from winterization - but who does that? Kind of defeats the idea of winterization in the first place. But it might have saved me $9,000.
 

jimmbo

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I've seen several cases where the Transom Straps weren't undone and the boat was floating a bit lower with trailer still attached. Trailers are usually lighter than the Boat's Capacity

Where I live most people launch Outboards with engines up, usually just pulling them to the Dock before lowering the Motor. Those that power off. wait till the trailer has stopped before lowering the Motor.
I don't lower the Drive on my I/O until ready to back it off the Trailer

I wouldn't tow an Unsecured boat past the Staging Area at the Launch. Too much Liability if something were to happen, as the Trailer would be deemed unroadworthy without the load secured.

Exactly how low is the transom on that boat? I have never seen a Boat that places any of the Cowl anywhere near the Waterline.
 
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racerone

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I am puzzled by this idea of the " lowest cylinder being below the waterline" .----Explain what you mean / understand about this.
 

jimmbo

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Did someone stick an engine on the Boat that had too short of a Shaft, so they cut the Transom Mount down 5 inches, to make it fit?
 

chris.olson

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I know that this has been a design consideration for 4-strokes forever. I know some engines have flapper valves so water does not travel backwards up the exhaust and destroy the engine

Actually, no, it's not a design consideration. Sure, you can suck water up the exhaust on a four-stroke by shifting into reverse when moving forward due to the thru-hub exhaust and the pressure pulses in the exhaust system going negative when the throttle suddenly closes. But you did not get water in the lower cylinder from launching at the ramp that caused it to bend a rod.

Why do I say that? Basic four-stroke design.

To get water in a cylinder when the engine is not running the exhaust valve has to be open. Let's say the cylinder filled to capacity. Still not gonna hydraulic lock it because when you crank it over to start it it blows the water out the exhaust valve and the next stroke is the intake stroke. With the piston at TDC on the exhaust stroke and transitioning to intake stroke, both valves are very slightly open. This is called "overlap" in the valve timing event. Even if the cylinder is still full of water to full combustion chamber capacity (which it won't be due to the force with which the water is blown out of the cylinder when the piston first starts to move), it's still not at hydraulic lock.

So the ingesting water theory doesn't hold water and I've never seen one bend a rod from getting water in the exhaust. I have seen 'em bend a rod from a leaking injector though, running at 4,000 rpm and Mercury tried to blame that one on water ingestion too.

The winterization is likely what caused it. The procedure on the four-strokes is NOT to spray fogging oil into the intake with the engine running. This will pool oil in the intake, on top of the intake valves and in the cylinders and cause it to stall. The procedure is to pull the plugs and spray the fogging oil into the cylinders thru the plug holes. Then crank it to blow the excess oil out, put never-sieze on the plug threads and re-install the plugs. The combustion chamber volume is very small. If this was not done properly it doesn't take too much extra oil to hydraulic lock it. And the rods in those engines are extremely light duty to make the engine light weight - they have skimped where ever they can to save on weight in the four-strokes.

Either way, it is not Mercury's fault - rods don't just bend unless it hydraulic locks. And the culprit was likely either spraying fogging oil in the intake with it running (a big no-no) or spraying too much in the plug holes and not probably purging it before putting the plugs back in.

If oil was sprayed into it with it running and pooled in the intake, guess which cylinder the oil pools to on an inline four after sitting and gets a big wad of it sucked in when you go to start it the next time? There's some people that get carried away with this fogging BS. I've stored outboards over the winter for years without ever "fogging" one and never had a problem with one yet rusting up over the winter in the dry air.
 

jimmbo

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The reason Fogging Oil was used on 2 strokes was to coat the Bearings in the Crankcase, not to coat the Cylinder Walls
 

chris.olson

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The bearings in the crankcase of a two-stroke are already coated with two-stroke oil. The gas evaporates and leaves the oil, which doesn't evaporate. I've torn engines down that have been sitting for 5 years because they holed a piston or seized up and even the rod big end and wrist pin rollers are still wet with oil after that amount of time.
 

jengel

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I've seen several cases where the Transom Straps weren't undone and the boat was floating a bit lower with trailer still attached. Trailers are usually lighter than the Boat's Capacity

Where I live most people launch Outboards with engines up, usually just pulling them to the Dock before lowering the Motor. Those that power off. wait till the trailer has stopped before lowering the Motor.
I don't lower the Drive on my I/O until ready to back it off the Trailer

I wouldn't tow an Unsecured boat past the Staging Area at the Launch. Too much Liability if something were to happen, as the Trailer would be deemed unroadworthy without the load secured.

Exactly how low is the transom on that boat? I have never seen a Boat that places any of the Cowl anywhere near the Waterline.

This obviously isn't my 2020 pontoon boat, but it was an image I found that shows how the rear of the pontoon boat can be lower than normal operation when the front is on a trailer. Eventually, the back end would float off the trailer, but first, it will go a bit deeper. My engine extends behind the pontoon a ways, so you could see how this might put the engine in the "danger zone". This is my best guess as to what could of happened. Seems very unlikely and remote, but so does the damage happening during winterization, foul play, and all of the other theories.

I do intend to get video and photos of the boat when I get it repaired and launch it to see if this is even possible/likely. But for now, it seems to be my best guess. If the lowest cylinder in the motor got below the water line when I started it, water could have been sucked into the engine if it was sitting in the exhaust port when I started it.

1655206765334.png
 

jengel

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Actually, no, it's not a design consideration. Sure, you can suck water up the exhaust on a four-stroke by shifting into reverse when moving forward due to the thru-hub exhaust and the pressure pulses in the exhaust system going negative when the throttle suddenly closes. But you did not get water in the lower cylinder from launching at the ramp that caused it to bend a rod.

Why do I say that? Basic four-stroke design.

To get water in a cylinder when the engine is not running the exhaust valve has to be open. Let's say the cylinder filled to capacity. Still not gonna hydraulic lock it because when you crank it over to start it it blows the water out the exhaust valve and the next stroke is the intake stroke. With the piston at TDC on the exhaust stroke and transitioning to intake stroke, both valves are very slightly open. This is called "overlap" in the valve timing event. Even if the cylinder is still full of water to full combustion chamber capacity (which it won't be due to the force with which the water is blown out of the cylinder when the piston first starts to move), it's still not at hydraulic lock.

So the ingesting water theory doesn't hold water and I've never seen one bend a rod from getting water in the exhaust. I have seen 'em bend a rod from a leaking injector though, running at 4,000 rpm and Mercury tried to blame that one on water ingestion too.

The winterization is likely what caused it. The procedure on the four-strokes is NOT to spray fogging oil into the intake with the engine running. This will pool oil in the intake, on top of the intake valves and in the cylinders and cause it to stall. The procedure is to pull the plugs and spray the fogging oil into the cylinders thru the plug holes. Then crank it to blow the excess oil out, put never-sieze on the plug threads and re-install the plugs. The combustion chamber volume is very small. If this was not done properly it doesn't take too much extra oil to hydraulic lock it. And the rods in those engines are extremely light duty to make the engine light weight - they have skimped where ever they can to save on weight in the four-strokes.

Either way, it is not Mercury's fault - rods don't just bend unless it hydraulic locks. And the culprit was likely either spraying fogging oil in the intake with it running (a big no-no) or spraying too much in the plug holes and not probably purging it before putting the plugs back in.

If oil was sprayed into it with it running and pooled in the intake, guess which cylinder the oil pools to on an inline four after sitting and gets a big wad of it sucked in when you go to start it the next time? There's some people that get carried away with this fogging BS. I've stored outboards over the winter for years without ever "fogging" one and never had a problem with one yet rusting up over the winter in the dry air.
Thanks for the explanation. My knowledge has been what I have tried to glean from a few posts like this so it's spotty at best. What you say above may be true, but it doesn't exactly coincide with what I have been told, even by the guy from Merc who tried to walk me through some scenarios and indicated that starting the engine when the engine was too low in the water was definitely a possibility, and given my explanation, a likely culprit. But, I have been thinking the issue had to be from launching, now I am guessing it very likely was done when it was winterized. Not sure if there is any proof though, especially now that the engine has been torn down. Is there anything I can ask the shop where the engine is sitting in pieces to check so I know if that was the case? Would the ECU register anything to indicate when the failure occurred? If it was last October, it's pretty clear who is responsible.
 

chris.olson

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Is there anything I can ask the shop where the engine is sitting in pieces to check so I know if that was the case? Would the ECU register anything to indicate when the failure occurred? If it was last October, it's pretty clear who is responsible.

It's doubtful there's any stored codes for it. The ECU on your Mercury engine is pretty basic, it is not near as sophisticated as modern automotive systems. It will log a hard sensor fault, but not something like a bent rod.

If you have not been in contact with the shop that did the winterizing, and they don't know about it, just wander in and ask sort of nonchalant what's involved with winterizing your four-stroke outboard. See if you can get some info on what procedure they use, find out if they do things like spraying fogging oil in a running engine and flood it with oil until it quits.

And keep in mind these engines are not tough like the old two-strokes. I mean, the local Mercury dealer here has a stack of four-stroke power heads on a pallet that has failed either under warranty or not - everything from tossed rods and a hole in the block, dropped valves, bent rods, pistons that broke and the small end of the rod beat the crap out of the cylinder and busted it, and every single one they blame on water getting in the exhaust, or water getting in the oil. About a month ago I was there and looking at one that tossed a rod - it was a 90 but this is the same powerhead you got. They said it tossed the rod because water got in the oil. Cripes, I could see thru the hole in the block that the big end of the rod was still on the crank journal - the rod bearing had not failed. The rod beam broke and the crank flung it thru the block. I've been building engines for better than 40 years, and I'm not quite that gullible. I pointed this out to the tech standing there. Oh no, they teach 'em right in service school in Fon Du Lac that if it breaks, water got in.

Mercury cheapened their modern four-strokes up to get the weight down so they can claim they're 20 lbs lighter (or whatever) than their competitors. They are very fragile (and complex and expensive) pieces of machinery and it don't take much to break one, compared to what we've had before the great four-stroke craze in the early part of the last decade.

Admittedly, a bent rod is not Mercury's fault unless it was caused by an injector that stuck open and filled the cylinder with gasoline (and I've seen that too). But I hate to tell you that these engines are very chincy-built just to get the weight down, compared to something like a Honda four-stroke. The Mercury Boys will tell you a Honda is SLOW because it's so heavy - they teach 'em that in service school too. But if you can break a Honda outboard it was likely in a crash on the highway, and not on the lake.
 

QBhoy

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I've seen several cases where the Transom Straps weren't undone and the boat was floating a bit lower with trailer still attached. Trailers are usually lighter than the Boat's Capacity

Where I live most people launch Outboards with engines up, usually just pulling them to the Dock before lowering the Motor. Those that power off. wait till the trailer has stopped before lowering the Motor.
I don't lower the Drive on my I/O until ready to back it off the Trailer

I wouldn't tow an Unsecured boat past the Staging Area at the Launch. Too much Liability if something were to happen, as the Trailer would be deemed unroadworthy without the load secured.

Exactly how low is the transom on that boat? I have never seen a Boat that places any of the Cowl anywhere near the Waterline.
I’ve got a boat with the transom only a few inches above the
It's doubtful there's any stored codes for it. The ECU on your Mercury engine is pretty basic, it is not near as sophisticated as modern automotive systems. It will log a hard sensor fault, but not something like a bent rod.

If you have not been in contact with the shop that did the winterizing, and they don't know about it, just wander in and ask sort of nonchalant what's involved with winterizing your four-stroke outboard. See if you can get some info on what procedure they use, find out if they do things like spraying fogging oil in a running engine and flood it with oil until it quits.

And keep in mind these engines are not tough like the old two-strokes. I mean, the local Mercury dealer here has a stack of four-stroke power heads on a pallet that has failed either under warranty or not - everything from tossed rods and a hole in the block, dropped valves, bent rods, pistons that broke and the small end of the rod beat the crap out of the cylinder and busted it, and every single one they blame on water getting in the exhaust, or water getting in the oil. About a month ago I was there and looking at one that tossed a rod - it was a 90 but this is the same powerhead you got. They said it tossed the rod because water got in the oil. Cripes, I could see thru the hole in the block that the big end of the rod was still on the crank journal - the rod bearing had not failed. The rod beam broke and the crank flung it thru the block. I've been building engines for better than 40 years, and I'm not quite that gullible. I pointed this out to the tech standing there. Oh no, they teach 'em right in service school in Fon Du Lac that if it breaks, water got in.

Mercury cheapened their modern four-strokes up to get the weight down so they can claim they're 20 lbs lighter (or whatever) than their competitors. They are very fragile (and complex and expensive) pieces of machinery and it don't take much to break one, compared to what we've had before the great four-stroke craze in the early part of the last decade.

Admittedly, a bent rod is not Mercury's fault unless it was caused by an injector that stuck open and filled the cylinder with gasoline (and I've seen that too). But I hate to tell you that these engines are very chincy-built just to get the weight down, compared to something like a Honda four-stroke. The Mercury Boys will tell you a Honda is SLOW because it's so heavy - they teach 'em that in service school too. But if you can break a Honda outboard it was likely in a crash on the highway, and not on the lake.
ate you talking about the same 2100cc engine ? Keen to hear more about this.
 

jimmbo

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There are a lot of boats that should have been Built with 25" Transoms
 
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