Lost

txswinner

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Just facts to think about, these are real people not coming home and injuries.

Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
Edited by Michael Ewens :: Contact American Military Casualties in Iraq

Date Total In Combat

American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2605 2109
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 2468 2010
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 2138 1802
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1739 1477
Since Election (1/31/05): 1169 992
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 19270 20000 - 48100
Latest Fatality August 19th, 2006
Page last updated 08/21/06 5:08 am EDT
 

Vlad D Impeller

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Re: Lost

Its a good reminder that freedom is not cheap, my heart goes out to soldiers and their families who have sacrificed so much for the rest of us.
 

eeboater

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Re: Lost

I agree 100% with Vlad.

But... IMO, the numbers in txs post are senseless drabble. They make no sense. I learned nothing.

Source?
Numbers stand for what?
 

Mr.Ladyfish

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Re: Lost

I recieved this this morning and found it worth the read. .......

This is the most cogent and powerful essay on the threat of Islamic terrorism I have seen. Dr. Vernon Chong. It is without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your mind to his essay and give a fair evaluation. It's also eerily applicable to other current issues (Iran's nuclear program, immigration, NAFTA's impact on American jobs, trade deficits, etc.). I had no idea who Dr. Chong is , or the source of these thoughts... so when I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall Medical Center in San Antonio. So he is real, is connected to Veterans affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth reading and thinking about! (the same Google search will direct you to some of his other thought-provoking writings.)


If you would like to see who this fellow is, go to this Air Force web site and look him up. http://www.af.mil/bios/alpha.asp?alpha=C

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA: A different spin on Iraq war.

This WAR is for REAL!
Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?

Many will say September 11, 2001.
The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).


2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessor, President Ford.

3. Who were the attackers?
In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World?
25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Chris tian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests).
(see http://www.Nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm)

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.


Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.


So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions:

We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post-Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The plan was, clearly, for terrorists to attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them.

We would, of course, have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see; we are impotent and cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!

Without our support Great Britan will go too. reently I read that there are more mosques in England than churches.

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslim terrorists, how could anyone else?

The radical Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!



Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.


And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose.

I think some actually do, I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq. And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

These people are a serious and dangerous liability to the war effort. We must take note of who they are and get them out of office. Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States, but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world! We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire. If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.


If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve.
Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses.

What is happening in Iraq is a good example. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now, after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it. I reiterate. A national election is months away.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!

Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our "leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too. There are those that find fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks through this, that we must UNITE!

.............
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Lost

Mr ladyfish, great post.

Sadly there are many that wont ever get it. All they care about is getting GWB out of office and getting a lib in there. A lib will be their hero and make all the bad things go away.

Ken
 

txswinner

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Re: Lost

I was hopeing my 2000th post would be on a significant issue and this appears to relevent and have true foundation. I agree with the article of Dr. Chong in part but with full study believe he is missing an important element.

This war as it exist is not at all in the face of terrorist, its bases was an overthrow of a sovereign government. The war in Afganistan on the other hand was indeed an attack on terrorism and we should have completed it. We did not, but instead under false information of WMD took apart a country.

I do not condone Saddam or his actions but they were not our business and in many parts of this world, if the leader is threatened with assasination, then leader responds as did Saddam.

Back to the issue of this article. I believe we are trapped at this time in a civil war conflict resulting from the greed of a few to control the oil supply. No one mentioned anything as we invaded Iraq that we were fighting to wipe out terrorist.

Many from both sides of the aisle have agreed that terrorist do not exist as a single entity or country and for this reason we can not fight using 20th century combat methods.

Yes sometimes rights get stepped on, but the abuse by the government in the last 6 years is way overboard. the very labors of the founding fathers was to prevent a ruling party or government without control and one that had power to remove our basic rights.

I believe we have reached a point in our history that we must rebel against those who have taken away our rights and this November is our opportunity to take the first step.

A war, yes, but we must form a new strategy to fight the terrorist and not try to recreate the world governments. If we are required to enter a country to seek them out then we must do so, regardless of the UN or that country. However, we must not overthrow governments for greed or to make them like us. Believe it or not, this world has many different peoples with many different philosophies of life.

God bless America
 

Mr.Ladyfish

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Re: Lost

I'm glad y'all enjoyed it. As I said, I recieved it today and thought it worth the read.
My personal feelings are that the war in Iraq is being botched up much the way the Viet Nam war was. The politicians and media need to get the hell out of the way and let the generals run the war (they have studied warfare, it is their profession).
That being said, I learned a long time ago that politics & religious discussions very seldom if ever produce any changes in either side's opinions. Therefore I usually don't post in these discussions....... as a wise man once said "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
 

JB

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Re: Lost

TXS is clearly one of those who doesn't get the whole picture, Mr. LF.

I believe his motives are honorable. He just doesn't understand.
 

12Footer

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Re: Lost

Thanks for the post, Mr LF!! I C&P'd the entire thing to a local website. Dr.Chong makes it as clear as it can get.
Unfortunately, some will still not believe the stats he listed.
But all we can do is try.
I won't ever lose my resolve to win this war. I swear it.
 

CJY

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Re: Lost

JB,

Come on, "he just doesn't understand." ?

What makes you believe you know everything? I thought you are supposed to be critical of words, not people? I guess you are an honorable idiot, txs.

He simply does not agree with you. Nothing more, nothing less. Break down the words JB, not the person. It is getting very old JB.

I don't know a whole lot about Dr. Vernon Chong, Major general, retired USAF. I don't know how right or how wrong he is either. Even though I agree with some points he makes, we/I don't know.

Dr. Chong says "Some think this war on terror is about oil, some think it’s about religion, who will dominate the Middle East Christianity or Islam. It’s about neither. It’s about a man and his followers who want to dominate, Osama Bin Laden wants to be the new Mohamed. He would take civilization back to the 2nd century BC and start over in is image. Osama is one of the false profits the Bible tells us of. For those who can’t see what this war is about we who can will pray for you."

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html?id=793

If you agree with the other things he said, you must also agree with this. Why are we not putting greater effort into his death? OBL is job #1. I don't hear you complaining over the poor attempts to get him.

Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General did not earn his stripes strategizing, and fighting war and conflict. He is in fact a medical doctor where he finished his career as a command surgeon. Very distinguished and honorable career, I must say. However, it is what it is, and it is not for fighting and strategizing war or conflict. Therefore, his credentials to make such statements amount to little more than "staying at a Holiday Inn" last night. There are many retired military generals stating we should get out. We cannot accomplish any more. However, they are not conservative as Dr. Chong is. The generals that are saying get out, earned their stripes strategizing and fighting. These are the ones I tend to believe at the moment.

Many compare the Iraq war with Vietnam. Did we win in Vietnam? Are the vietnamese coming over in droves taking us over? These are not meant to be funny or sarcastic statements. They are simply meant to show that some of Dr. Chong's logic and reasoning may be flawed. History does not show he is correct. One event does not necessarily lead to another.

Talk about sheeple. One person says something you agree with and you would think Dr. Chong is the greatest military strategizer ever known to mankind. WOW!
 

12Footer

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Re: Lost

I can esspecially relate to this comment in D Chong's piece;
"Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.
 

Link

Rear Admiral
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Re: Lost

Good post MrLadyFish
Thought about posting that a few weeks ago but figured everyone had already recieved it via email.

Thanks
 

rottenray6402

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Re: Lost

PW2 wrote "Many compare the Iraq war with Vietnam. Did we win in Vietnam? Are the vietnamese coming over in droves taking us over? These are not meant to be funny or sarcastic statements. They are simply meant to show that some of Dr. Chong's logic and reasoning may be flawed. History does not show he is correct. One event does not necessarily lead to another."
We did not win in Viet Nam but I don't recall Vietnamese flying airplanes into American buildings or vowing to kill us because we are "infidels".
 

txswinner

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Re: Lost

Moderators, Again JB has crossed the line in identifying me as someone who just does not understand, basically a person attack on my intellect. I really do not care and am not bother except that later he will come in with his moment of power and blast someone for name calling.

Also note did not discuss my issues with the article but took an opportunity to attack my person.

Would love to hear your review on this point especially Ladyfish as my remarks were related to her post which I read totally and agreed with in part but not in whole. This was an intellectual discussion without any personal attack until JB.
 

txswinner

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Re: Lost

CYJ, Thanks for the defense, and being noted as an honorable idiot by some may actually show me as one with an open mind.
 

gonefishie

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Re: Lost

The Vietnamese were just simply wanting their country back, the Muslim wanting for all of us to die. Get your mind right dude! I agreed with the masses that we should get out of Vietnam and I also agreed that we should get out of the Middle East and stop killing our own people by being over there. We should stop being so P.C and send them a nuke everytime a terror act carry out by Muslim in the U.S. Just like kids, they don't learn when all you do to punish them are time outs instead of kicking their arse.
 

QC

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Re: Lost

The Vietnam comparison does hold water IMHO, but it needs to be put into context. It is not simply Iraq compared to Vietnam. Then we were trying to stem the tide of Communism. Now we are trying to stem the tide of Islamic Fascists, their terrorism and their desire to take over the world. Much like the communists desired and openly stated then. In that combination of hot wars and simultaneous cold war, we won by fighting many fronts, ideologies, governments and individuals etc. You can count Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Cuba, our presence in West Germany etc. and our tough stance and huge military spending as defeating the cold war. I think that should be called World War 3 and now we are in World War 4. My .02 . . .
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Lost

QC is right, we may have sort of lost the battle in Vietnam, but we won the war against the spread of communisim. Name one country converted to communisim after Vietnam. Now, name the countries that have gone away from communisim.

I firmly believe that our actions in Vietnam prevented other countires from thinking about converting to communism. They knew we would fight them for it.

We showed the commies we wont take thier actions lying down, and we are showing the radical muslims (and those that support them) we wont take their actions lying down either.

If you dont get it, you never will.

Ken
 
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