Is security worth giving up some freedom?

[Scoop]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

What if the innocent life is Derwood, JB, your wife or husband, your child? Are you willing to spend their life? The innocent people are people like you and I. <br /><br />I would never "spend" the life of my child because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.<br /><br />There is a person in this world that looks just like me. They lived in the same town I did. I never met this person, but was chastised by many friends that "saw" me and said I ignored them. This includes my best friends that I interact with on a daily basis. If they cannot tell me apart from this guy, then the witness to a crime who doesn't know me will not be able to say it was not me. Don't be short sighted. Spend the money on ways to prevent the crime. Education, drug treatment, safe affordable housing. I am saying give things away, but empower people to help themselves.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

nothing to hide...<br /><br />what i'm trying to say is that i really don't mind if the government (people WE elected) feels it necessary to gather certain info that may contain my name. if i buy a gun, something that can be used to kill many people very easily, let them do background checks and keep records of the purchase. how are they going to use those records? to try and solve a crime. which does what? protects me. same goes for cameras and recognition programs at airports. why should i care if the fbi sees me boarding my plane? where is the harm? these so called 'liberties' we would give up are only to help protect us from the bad guys. big picture....remember that.

 

[SCO]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Mattt, I notice you have a minimal profile. I looked there to see if your age was on it. No complaint here I also have a minimal profile probably for the same reason, that any ole person with a computer can find out a lot, (ref Silverking and MM). I checked for your age because I've seen in my time a lot of incremental creep. The first biggie I saw was the great society. Now we have a gigantic underclass that is much more of a problem than the original and in fact caused by the government fix in my opinion. Now they want to house people on mothballed cruise lines. Build it and they will come. Point is that we are giving this stuff up one step at a time. It is a violation of our freedom at a basic level to give these people sanction to rifle through our personal lives. For now we need to stop extending citizen type rights to non citizens.

 

[Scoop]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Mattt, This country was founded on freedom. The reason for that was persecution. This is just one more level of protection against persecution.<br />A lot of things have been done in the past in the name of protecting the people of a country.<br /><br />Two obvious examples are<br />The mass killing of the Jews by Hilter<br />The mass killings of all people who wore glasses by Pol Pot<br /><br />I could list more. The problem is that no matter how much you trust this current government, there is always a chance that there will be changes. They have just passed the Homeland security act "But there will still be revisions". In there, they have provisions that exclude information sharing. There is no one that can oversee this. They can do what they want in the name of National Security. the "if you have nothing to hide argument" is often used. Well, what did the people in the previous examples have to hide?

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

sco- i am 27. i am an officer in the united states navy, paid to protect the country and its citizens, and possibily sacrifice my life in doing so. if you want more, please let me know.<br /><br />using the nazi example is useless. if you truly believe mass killings based on race or religion could occur in the year 2002 in the usa, i really don't want to debate with you. we're talking about small things. i ask again, how can it harm me if the government (again, people like you and i who we elect) collects information about me? where i live is public record. what i am paid is public record. and i really don't care if our govt wants to know more and share that information with organizations they seem fit. if the govt wants to determine who owns which guns and publishes it for all to see, what is the harm? when someone is shot, and the police can determine who owned the gun through records collected by the govt, then the system works. if the govt wants to photograph every person entering the airport, and they use this information to nab a suspected terrorist, then the system works. someone please tell me what i'm missing in all this. we're not talking about giving up your right to vote, or speech, or a million other important things.

 

[ob]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

You're not missing anything Matt except that people just don't see eye to eye on issues.Who you are and what your age is ,shouldn't have spit to do with what your views are ,unless someone needs to pigeon hole you .Just like what was mentioned about executing people who wore glasses.<br /><br />When the NHTSA dropped the speed limits on interstates in the seventies from 70 to 55 mph that was raising a similar stink.Some people thought it was too controlling and that the accident death stats were misleading in an attempt to muster more ticket revenue. Laws and regulations have and will continue to change to meet the change in society.<br /> <br /> In short I don't feel that the register of firearms poses any threat to our rights as long as it doesn't automatically prohibit ownership.We have to defend one right at a time and not assume that one regulation will lead to another based on a paranoid delusion that the goverments plan is to disarm it's citizens to gain more control.

 

[SCO]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Mattt, I'll answer your question with a question. Why is there such a phrase as "illegal search and seizure" ? I appreciate the military and I don't want to thwart the military's efforts to do its job of solving our current problems. If we can no longer afford our freedom, because of the danger to the people that are doing the fighting like yourself, then lets understand that is the choice and price that we are paying. I put JB's topic starter question back to you as a rhetorical question. BTW thank you for your service. We are all on the same side here.

 

[SCO]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

OB, are you saying I need to pidgeon hole Matttt?

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

fellas- i think we are all on the same side. just good heated debate. that's why this board exists, right? ob- you said it well..<br /><br />"We have to defend one right at a time and not assume that one regulation will lead to another based on a paranoid delusion that the goverments plan is to disarm it's citizens to gain more control. "<br /><br />take care friends...

 

[Moose_Miller]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

What makes y'all think that they(big brother) aint already reading your email, listening in on a phone call to your aunt Bessy, etc.? All this homeland security act does is make it legal for them to do it whenever they want to whomever they want, with probable cause being whatever they want it to be. Big brother's technology far exceeds most of our imaginations, I'm sure.<br /><br />I'm sure most of you have heard the old theory about key words and phrases on the telephone that makes the CIA listen in. Where did that idea come from? All unfounded jibberish? I doubt it... and while we're on conspiracy theories, we naver actually landed on the moon either

 

[ob]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

If the goverment wanted to spy on my e-mails or phone calls they would more than likely have a good reason to.That's nothing new.They've been tapping phone lines of suspected criminals for decades.I don't really think the goverment would stand to gain anything from such.Unless they maybe wanted to comprise a study of boring phone calls and e-mails.Anyway the "goverment " is you and me and everyone else, not some alien spieces that is observing mankind for their entertainment.We have to keep are suspicions rational or we will become vunerable.

 

[SCO]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Agreed Moose. Once they get sanction to create the superdatabase, then the capability for the realization of the government portrayed in "1984" will be in place. It will be like a brass ring for some future group to seize in a way that none of us can forsee. Something like the Clinton FBI files debachle or Watergate to the 5th power. Ooooo Weeeee Ooooo.

 

[Scoop]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Never thought I would ever be on the is side of not registering your gun.<br /><br />What will giving up our freedom gain us? Is the price worth it? The gun used in every crime is dropped at the scene and can lead back to the perons who owned it. Registration can do that but what criminal would actually use a registered gun?<br /><br />As far as the government not killing millions, yes it was an exagerated example. Will it happen? Unlikely. Did it Happen elsewhere last year? It sure did.<br /><br />Did J. Edgar Hoover have information on people he should not have? Yes. Did he act on that to persecute people he did not like. Yes.<br /><br />It happens and can happen. Some people in the government can have their own agenda or be bought. Look at the indictments in Wisconsin lately. Favors for votes.<br /><br />Good natured debates, yes.

 

[jee70611]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Everyone,<br /><br />I think that we have all kept our cool and expressed ourselves in a civilized manner. This is GREAT. Let's keep it that way. I will stick with my opinions on the issue for now. This site is great and I think we should keep this topic alive. Who knows, it may show up on tv one of these days. . Also, anyone else who thinks they can add to this discussion but hasn't posted yet for fear of criticism, please post. I won't chastise you. I promise . I don't think anyone else will for that matter, as long as you present your case in a civil and respectable manner. Also, please read the entire post first.<br /><br />James<br /><br />PS: What is your opinions about what I said about music and kids these days? Let me know what you think.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

I believe the two words are interchangeable (Freedom and security). You cannot have one without the other.<br />Freedom is something we Americans built our constitution around.<br />Security is the understanding that we can practice our freedoms without fear of reprisals.<br />A camera in the corner is there,not to detract from my security,but to enhance it. I usually just wave to them in the covieniance stores.<br />Traffic light-mounted cameras get "da bird" from the 12Footer as he passes under them..but i have no privacy problems. I am not skeered, and flaunt my freedom for Osama to see (if he happens to have a feed from the traffic light camera).<br />Speaking of that P.O.S.--- I heard a video tape of him,claiming more acts of terror in the near future. HHHHHHHA!!<br />That clown is the only one who is not free or secure. He can't even leave his hole in the ground, and must rely on others for his sustanance...."Hey Bin laid-not, how does real terror feel!?!? hmm?"<br /><br />Just thot i would knock that off my chest.

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

You know everyone here makes some good points but one thing got me thinking. If Big Brother is already monitoring things what do you think he has to say about what we are doing here? I bet there is a file on each one of us already just because we actually have the brass to speak our minds and cause others to think.

 

[ODDD1]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

In a word, NO.....those who would perhaps should live in a socialist state....our dear forefathers had a healthy distrust of goverment...and rightly so....look around the world today, it is not completely filled with stupid people, and yet from where I sit we still have the best deal going...I am the last person to throw a vote towards screwing this up....

 

[derwood]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Now this is the way to argue....Not one ounce of nastyness in the bunch....thanks fellas.<br /><br />Does 9,11 count as a mass killing on US soil in the name of religon or race? The Jewish pepole that were killed were not only in germany.<br /><br />This is not the direction that I want to go with this anyway....I would not have a problem with an FBI agent knowing that I have a gun.<br /><br />But the fact that registering a gun in no way would help find killers useing stolen guns, and the only pepole that would be killing pepole with a gun they registered, in my opinion, would'nt realy give much thought or a care in the world to remaining aynonamus....everybody would probly know they did it from the start.<br /><br />If that person was'nt allowed to own a gun...he would'nt have gone somewhere he would have to register it in order to by it in the first place....see first argument.<br /><br />When I register my guns....and the process does'nt work....are they going to tell me I don't have to register my guns anymore....will they hand over the documents with my info on them....or will they simply leave that law in place and make up ten new laws to see if they can get what they want that way....And if those laws don't work....will they leave those laws on the books as well....before you know it we will be regreting letting them do this.<br /><br />I don't have anything to hide....that statement in no way means that I want to be watched for the rest of my life like someone that is untrustworthy.<br /><br />Honorwood.

 

[JB]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

For purposes of summary.<br /><br />My opening post dealt with an attempt to use information gathered legally for purposes of finding out if a person is legally entitled to buy a gun.<br /><br />The use of that information for any other purpose is forbidden in the law that allows it to be collected.<br /><br />The intended other purpose is to identify who might be a threat to national security.<br /><br />The right to privacy was abridged for one purpose is being illegally further abridged for another purpose.<br /><br />Frankly, I doubt that either purpose is served with that information.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

right on JB.... so what "purpose" does all this<br />serve? <br />it allows politicians to look like they're doing<br />something. god forbid they actaully work on some<br />real problems facing our country. of course that<br />would take making a stand one way or the other<br />on an issue. they won't do it for fear of not<br />being re-electd.... don't want to ruffle any<br />feathers you know.<br />"it is better to remain silent and appear to be an<br />idiot than to open your mouth and remove all<br />doubt" (confuscious, I think?)