Is security worth giving up some freedom?

JB

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Along the lines of Relentless's theme, I lived in Ft. Lauderdale for 8 years. I was burglarized five times and was threatened with arrest for laying a trap that injured a person attempting to intrude.<br /><br />I lived in Ft. Worth for three years. My car was stolen twice and burglarized three times. Because I taught at night and was home in the daytime I interrupted two intruders breaking into my apt. while I was sleeping.<br /><br />I have lived at The Hideout for ten years. I have never locked my door. My house was entered while I was away once. I had not been seen at the Post Office for a few days so the Postmaster came to see if I was sick or injured. She left me a note. I now must notify her and my nearest neighbors (about 1/2 mile)if I am going to be gone more than 24 hours or they would call the Sherrif.<br /><br />Those are the statistics that matter to me. :)
 

jee70611

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

MY, <br /><br />I agree with what you say about being careful with guns. I think they should teach gun safety in school at an early age. That may help the issue of kids shooting themselves. I will never keep a loaded gun anywhere that a kid can get to it. However, in the event you need your gun, a criminal will not wait for you to unlock it. I believe common sense should be used in all things, whether it be driving a car, cutting a watermelon, or riding a bike. Has anyone researched Kennesaw, Georgia yet? They require that everyone except felons and incompetents be trained on how to use and handle a gun. Here are some links to information about Kennesaw.<br /><br /> Here are some google search results on Kennesaw<br /><br /> Kennesaw vs. Morton Grove Illinois<br /><br /> Yet another <br /><br />James<br /><br />PS: Look up Morton Grove, Illinois as well.
 

Tacklewasher

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

I'd encourage those of you in the US to do some searching on the gun registration program put in place in Canada. This is a program put in place over the past few years and (I think) NOSLEEP is correct that the phase in period ends this Jan. ALL guns have to be registered with the federal gov't including antiques with no serial numbers and all kinds of crap.<br /><br />Now I don't own a gun at all. I've considered getting one in the past for protection from four legged things while camping, but have started going to more populated areas in the last few years. I've nothing against hunting and would probably enjoy it if I could try it without needing all sorts of permits. <br /><br />That said, I think Canada's attempt at a gun registry is a farce on several levels. <br />1. I do not believe it is keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. see http://www.ncpa.org/iss/cri/2002/pd040102f.html <br />2. It is making criminals out of honest gun owners (farmers etc.) who refuse to register.<br />3. The program has cost way more than originally stated.<br /><br /> http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breitkreuzgpress/990628.html <br /> http://www.nfa.ca/
 

ob

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

JB,Isn't it a crying shame that you have to live in a rural location to escape the unchecked crime and downright deterioration of what I remember neighborhoods once were.Problem is ,I don't know if there is enough real estate for every person to be spread that thin.My wife and I have also entertained a similar idea at retirement time.It's not just the crime but the mainstream disrespect and scraping to get ahead attitude of many of our youth and adults alike.
 

BassMan283

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

I'd say it's the other way around. Freedom is worth giving up some security, IMO. Unfortunately, looks like we're going to be going the other way for the next few years.<br /><br />I guess if you've always had both, you tend to overreact to a diminution of one of them. Our security has been threatened and, for far too many people, the reaction has been, "Hey, I don't need all this freedom. Wasn't using it anyway." In a year or two they'll be pissing and moaning about the cavity searches at the grocery store, but the damage will be done.
 

Jack Shellac

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

" The king fears an armed populace ".
 

jee70611

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Bassman, <br /><br />I agree. What we need to do is be vocal, civil, and respectable when we address controversial issues. If we rant and rave, we will accomplish nothing. Also, if we, the people do not want to give up our rights, then the government CAN'T take them away. A government must be by the people, for the people, and of the people. We must impose checks and balances on the government by being informed voters. We have to quit thinking that the government is so powerful. Now, by no means am I an anarchist. A governmental body is definitely necessary to maintain civil order. However, that government should not push its people around. Now, I don't think our government or country are perfect in every aspect, but they are the best on the face of this earth. I don't think our forefathers anticipated all this political correctness crap. We should just do what is right and not "scratch each others' backs." I also think that we need to quit taking away victim's rights in order to "protect" the criminals. If you kill a burglar, you go to jail. :mad: If they slip, fall, and injure themselves they sue YOU! :mad: :mad: That's crazy. Shoot, if it was me, I would take the convicted felons to a prison with no heat or electricity supplied for free. They would ride bicycles to produce electricity for heat and light. They would grow their own food. They would wash their own clothes with washtubs. They would rotate duties and work all day long. I think that would start deterring people from committing crimes. There is nothing cruel or unusual about that. We merely slap them on the wrists these days. Oh well, we can only try to change the things we can and hope for the best. :) <br /><br />James
 

jee70611

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Amen to that Jack Shellac! Couldn't have said it better in such few words.<br /><br />James
 

sony2001

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

In the industrialized world the OVERALL crime rate has been going down for years. What has been going up is the REPORTING of the the criminal acts. In the seventies when I was studying at the U. of Windsor, Detroit across the river and had two homacides a day. It's probably much less today. There is a fortune spent on supporting the right to bear arms. I think the richest capitalistic country in the world should boast that every citizen is feed, housed and kept alive. That should be the basic right. Anything above that gentlemen, let the market play... :cool:
 

Fishbusters

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

What everyone does not realize is the system of government in the United States was established as an ACTIVE REVOLUTION and not a set in stone firm this is the way it has to be thing. The whole bill of rights was made to help ensure this is the way things would be run. Even as screwed up as it is we are still somewhat based on this fact. Every 2 years we can put someone new in the Representative branch of government and every 4 we can put an new guy in the exectutive branch. If we don't like things we can work to change them to be the way they should be. The only thing that does not change are the watchdogs who enforce the guidelines(laws) that explain how we want things to be done. This is the Supreme Courts function. These guys are the ones that protect our freedoms and our rights. Not Congress not the President but The Supreme Court. 11 men and women who based on the Constitution and it's amendments decide what the other branches and thier apointees can and can not do. At this point we need to call upon them to do thier job and correct the wrongs that have been and are about to be commited agianst the Americian people and the Constitution. Our founding fathers put this system of checks and balances into existence and when and only when it fails should the real reason the Right to Keep and bear arms come into play. And folks yes I am saying if the System of government we have now has become so screwed up and out of whack as it seems things are starting to become by allowing people with no right or legal athourity to do things to have the power to threaten the very things our country was founded on Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness then we should act and force a change.
 

snapperbait

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

My answer to the above question " Is security worth giving up some freedom?" is NO...<br /><br />I don't own firearms but I feel that if I so desire I should be allowed to posess firearms, without Big Brother knowing... It's none of there buisness....<br /><br />Im' not sure, but I think the concept of Responsibility in todays society, has gone out the window... Just take a look around and see for yourself... We need to get it back, and in a hurry.....
 

derwood

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

How much money would we save if The prison system would carry out a death sentance within one week of it being handed down.<br /><br />No more killers liveing for ten or fifteen years, sending in apeal after apeal to keep up the process of not killing them, meanwhile they are getting free medical, dental, hearing, sight, schooling, weights, clothes, houseing, food, entertainment, lawyers, and everything elese that a "person" needs to live....It's a human right, not a freemans right....at least thats what I have heard....Cause I don't have half of that stuff that a "human" needs to live "correctly".<br /><br />If they don't get these things they throw a big fit with lawyers (free ones) and get just what they want....except getting out of jail.<br /><br />I am working 6 days a week and 9 or 10 hrs a day not counting 2 hrs of driveing to get there and back....for what....I don't get any of the stuff that the pepole on the green mile get for nothing less than killing an innocent person that works hard every day to get what the person that just killed him will get for free.<br /><br />Yea yea yea....get to the point.<br /><br />If we took care of buisness and exicuted them in a week....we saved all the money that it takes for 10 to 15 years worth of "human needs".<br /><br />Pepole would think twice before killing someone if it ment that they would loose thier own life in a week....if your not going to kill somebody you don't need to steal a gun....there's no reason to register a gun cause there's nobody shooten anyone.<br /><br />Less pepole in prison to waste money and time and space leaves more money, space and time for criminals to spend there whole sentance....not just a part of it....and maybe that would detur pepole from committing crimes if they had to serve 110% of their sentance.<br /><br />Dead killers = less wannabe thugs/Hard time = less crime.<br /><br />It'll never happen. Putting more rules/restrictions/regulations and takeing away our given right's (that so many pepole fought and died for) has to be the answer.....NOT!<br /><br />Tobefreewood.
 

62_Kiwi

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

I'm glad you all seem to have realistic attitudes to the terror situation. Basic freedom is one of life's most illusive yet valuable attributes. Once lost - seldom regained...especially in these politically correct times.<br /><br />I read today that bin Laden's thugs would have to hi-jack 50 airliners per year in the USA to make flying as dangerous per mile as driving on the roads....now how likely is that? Then consider all the security hassles that have now been put in place all over the world with regard to boarding an aeroplane. I agree with many of the more sensible security improvements......but the long queues while they do things like removing and checking the shoes of little old ladies...when will it stop? bin Laden's scumbags would be amused by all this I think...
 

John Carpenter

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

As much as I hate to say it, I think the new Homeland Security bill will be an expensive and frustrating joke on the American people... with little or no improvement in national security or protection from terrorism. It is being run by the Federal government right? You cannot protect yourself from the actions of a madman...witness the D.C. sniper and the acts of Osama's followers. In the case of the latter...we simply have to eliminate the source of the problem. As long as there are people in this world crazy enough to fly a plane full of innocent people into a building full of innocent people in order to make a political statement...the free world will be susceptible to actions of this sort. This doesn't mean we should give up our freedoms to protect ourselves...it means we should take away their freedoms by whatever means necessary.
 

Scoop

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Derwood, is it worth possibly killing an innocent person? We have had a recent string of people proven innocent that are on death row. Barry Shek's innocence project has been working for a reason. Our current legal system is not infallable. Yes housing prisoners is expensive. No I am not against the death penalty. I am not for it either. Prison is not a picnic, but it is neither is it hell. Depending on how you act in prison, there are certain benfits you get. Like getting one of the laundry jobs. If your actions are bad, then you get segmented from the general populace. There are people in prison that are petty criminals and will be rehabilitated by spending time in prison, then there are people that have no prospect of rehabilitation and they should stay there. I live 10 miles away from the place where Jeffry Dahmer was killed. In fact the person I consider the other person that was killed at the same time was a much worse and more evil person. Jeffry Dahmer was sick. there was something not right in his head. He was in prison where he belonged and should never have gotten out. The other person decided he was going to kill his wife for the insurance money. He stabbed her mutiple times while in a car in a parking lot in Milwaukee 2 miles from where I used to live. He called the police and told them some other person attacked her and he fought him off. He showed a baseball hat of the supposed attacker. What came to light in the investigation is he bought the hat off an unsuspecting person in the mall across the street and then accused that person. His wife did not die right away. She was in intensive care for a few weeks. My cousin was one of her nurses. She never had any prospects of ever recovering and was determined to be brain dead. He knew what he was doing. He knew it was wrong and evil. He deserved whatever he got. Don't get me wrong, what Dahmer did is unimaginable and repulsive, but there is a difference.<br /><br />As far as giving up freedom. I will not give up freedom for security. I also will not give up freedom because someone threatens me with violence. I will not give up my ideals. People have the right to own a gun, not for just hunting, but because our constitution guarantees that right. At the time it was written, people could rise up and take out their goverment with the help of their gun. While this would not happen today, it is still a right we have. Hunting has nothing to do with the justification.<br /><br />Now I can say that all the other databases that were used had the same type of private information in them as gun registration and that if we used those, then there was not good reason to excluded the gun registration database. I heard the questioning of Ashcroft and he had no good reason either. He sounded just like a kid when caught in a lie. The real issue should be whether any of that information should have been used.<br /><br />There is a big outcry on this, but not on the homeland security act? What about the copyright protection acts that are being pushed through. talk abotu taking away your freedoms. If all are passed, then any company will have a right to come in and disrupt your services if they suspect you have a illegally copied file on your computer. They will have the rights of bounty hunters. This will be a direct violation of your property in your own home. Who here thinks that Microsoft should have the right to all the information you have? Do you realize how much they actually have on you? If you have a hotmail account, then they knwo what you have prucahsed and from where. They also share this information with any company that has a .net passport contract with them. When these things get passed, I hope that they are challenged in the supreme court because they take away more rights than anything ever proposed. It is a scary time.
 

Tacklewasher

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

I agree with Scoop on the death penalty.<br /><br />While I understand the reasons behind Derwoods reactions, (and I share them), the prospect of condeming an innocent man frightens me more.<br /><br />We've had our share of brutal killings in Canada and, right now, there is an investigation into the murder of some 50 **********s apparently killed by Rober Pickton in Port Coquitlam. about a dozen charges to date. Do I think this man deserves to live? Not really. But I weigh that against David Milgaard out of Saskatchewan who was in jail for a number of years for a brutal rape and murder that DNA evidence proves he did not commit. If we had the death penalty, he would be dead.<br /><br />Check out http://www.innocenceproject.org/ before deciding to kill em all.<br /><br />[Hmmm wonder if hookers works?]
 

Jack Shellac

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Regarding the cost of prison systems: We have had proposals to house non-violent offenders in fenced areas with tents to live in. They have work to do to occupy their their time and provide something productive. The liberals come out of the woodwork on this one; "cruel, inhumane' etc." and it goes away. Those of us who have been in the service will say " Hey, wait a minute. That's how we lived in the Army". I supposse our mistake was that we didn't commit a crime first, so we could become a victim ourseles. Nobody wants to be responsible for their own actions anymore and they seem to get away with it. As for the death penalty, I don't believe it is a deterrent, but you can bet your bottom dollar that that one won't be hurting anyone else.
 

JB

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Like many others, I have been shocked by the number of condemned who have been proven innocent.<br /><br />In theory, I support termination of criminals who are irretrievable dangers to society. My support is not so much of retribution or punishment, but of the practicality of not having to house, feed and in general support the criminal for 50 or 60 years.<br /><br />BUT I cannot in good conscience support the execution of a person who might conceivably be later proven innocent.<br /><br />I think the onus is on Judges, and in some States, juries who have the responsibility of passing sentence.<br /><br />It is too bad that our justice system is not so much about justice as it is contests between lawyers. :(
 
D

DJ

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Jack Shellac,<br /><br />That is PRECISELY what Sheriff Joe here in Maricopa County, AZ has done. He houses 5000 in tents. No coffee, no smokes, no girlee books, no cable TV. Plus he feeds them for about $1.00 per day-a lot of donated food.<br /><br />The crooks hate him, the citizens love him.
 

Scoop

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Tents. I have no problem with that. It would be a security problem with most of the worst offenders. I mean the real maximum or super maximum prisoners. I don't think that most of the people understand what rights the prisoners in maximum pens don't have.<br />Girlee books, pictures etc. Nope, can't have them. Polariods of their family. Nope, they get torn apart to make sure nothing is hidden. New clothes when you first get in the pen. Nope, you get the bottom of the barrel. I know 2 people that work in the one of the two prison near us. One has some repsonsibility to search anything that is given to the prisoners. Not much actually gets through and is not confiscated. The other deals directly with the prisoners. He manages a bunch of areas. One is the laundry. That is the top prison job there. The reason. they get the new clothes when they come in. The clothes they have on, get put back in the pile and are put in the pool for the other prisoners.<br />I know these are not the harshest things, but I can say that a maximum security prison is not a picnic. My aunt use to work in the infirmary of one. Man does she have some stories. All I can say is make friends with the right people because the gaurds cannot protect you unless you are in solitary.
 
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