Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

[Rudderman]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

You can't shove religion down people's necks, even if its part of the constitution. <br />Imagine you are a muslim kid (for example) and in school you are told that you have to recite the declaration of independence with references to god etc....you shouldn't have to do that if its not your religion. <br />I sense a hint of fundamentalist christianity!!!<br />PS: I'm a christian myself and I believe everyone should be allowed free choice thats all!<br />But I suspect that the teacher in question here must have gone beyond "presenting the facts"<br /><br />*running for cover*

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

There is a huge difference between shoving religion down peoples necks and expecting that they show 'tolerance' for a majority preference that the Nation's historical and present foundation not be stricken from public display. We're not requiring that anyone attend a bible study, here. <br /><br />You cannot speak from any American historical perspective, Rudderman. If a 'Muslim kid' is so depressed about the reality of our Declaration of Independence and any other displays of our Christian roots, then I suggest he return to a part of the world where his religion prevails. And may he keep his hands and tongue!

 

[Bigfun]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

I thought this discussion was about history and how some people wish to eliminate certain parts of it.<br /><br />What the heck is wrong with teaching historical FACTS?<br /><br /> It is not possible to teach a total history lesson of the U.S.A. without giving a lesson on the beliefs of all the founding fathers. I constantly hear from you anti-Chrtistian types that we have to learn about and try to understand the reasons why various people or groups do bad/evil things. It whould be nice if you had that same open-mindness in dealing with the teaching of the history of the U.S.A. <br /><br /> The fertilizer for our great country is/was Christanity. This realy bums some people out.<br /><br /> I sense a hint of liberal Christanity.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

i have to agree with jb. as i read the article, i could see the spin the whole way. need to hear the whole story, but it smells fishy.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by waterone1:<br /> When people were taught that "we are all God's creatures", there were fewer murders.

Unless you happened to be a native american. then you weren't considered even human, and your people were murdered by the tens of thousands, often times by those same folks claiming a special relationship with "god".

 

[12Footer]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Sigh.....God Bless America.

 

[Rudderman]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

This has become a very amusing thread...you guys are so blinkered, its hilarious...I sure wouldn't like to be a non-christian in America.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

I certianly agree that it is way beyond ridiculous to try and remove all references to god or christianity from school curriculum, especially when studying the founding fathers. However, I'll bet you anything there is an awful lot more to this story than what is printed here. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that teacher was pushing the boundaries by using the founding documents to evangelize. And that is pretty different than "declaration of independence BANNED from school!".<br /><br />I'm someone who has grown pretty tired of hearing how we are a "christian nation" and even more tired of hearing all the whining about how persecuted the christians in this country are. There's a tiny little town near here with a sign at the entrance to town listing all the churches. There are about a dozen of them and they are ALL christian. This can be multiplied all over the land. I don't think we've ever had a president who wasn't some sort of active christian. The entire low end of the FM dial is completely covered top to bottom these days in christain radio stations; christian TV abounds, even in the face of many high profile TV preachers being laid low by their own sins. How exactly are you all being persecuted? Because there are limits to what you can do to get the state to enforce your religious beliefs on everyone? Because every now and then some evangelizing teacher or public servant gets reined in and told to knock it off?<br /><br />By all means bring back the declaration of independence and any other relevant documents to the curriculum, but don't use it as an excuse to preach christainity to a captive audience of students.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by Rudderman:<br /> ...I sure wouldn't like to be a non-christian in America.

It's getting harder every day...

 

[12Footer]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

And that's a bad thing somehow?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by Rudderman:<br /> This has become a very amusing thread...you guys are so blinkered, its hilarious...I sure wouldn't like to be a non-christian in America.

Yeah, Rudderman, it would sure drive one to their knees, writhing in phsycological pain, to have to stand by (silently) while the words 'under God' were spoken in front of them. And oh, what a sheer torture for some aetheist or muslim to have to walk thru the hallowed halls of out National Monuements and have the many and varied reference to God, jump off of the walls and grab them by the throat.<br /><br />The end all, of course, would be that one of these people would have to appear in a courtroom, whose espoused sense of fairness and justice was displayed in the Ten Commandments.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by Rudderman:<br /> This has become a very amusing thread...you guys are so blinkered, its hilarious...I sure wouldn't like to be a non-christian in America.

I strongly disagree. I am amoung a group of people who would rather be beheaded than to renounce our faith in God. To us, this is dead-serious buisness -- our meaning for being alive in the first place.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /> And that's a bad thing somehow?

Umm... yeah 12, that IS a bad thing. That is, IF we want to live up to our potential as an inclusive, tolerant society. <br /><br />Now I guess if the goal is to work towards a fundamentalist Christian state, where non-believers are either "converted" or driven out, then the fact that it is getting harder every day to be a non-believer in america is a GOOD thing, and is helping to move us down the road towards our own version of the Taliban, right here in the USA.<br /><br />Jeez!

 

[12Footer]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by woodrat:<br />

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /> And that's a bad thing somehow?

Umm... yeah 12, that IS a bad thing. That is, IF we want to live up to our potential as an inclusive, tolerant society. <br />

<br />Agreed and you will include me!<br />As for thee rest of your post, it's Star Wars, and you need to wake up now...The movie is over.Time to come back to the real world.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

When i say inclusive, I mean it. I have no truck with those who buy christ as their savior. That is, until they start telling me that it is the ONLY way, and start trying to convert me or my kids, OR start passing laws that infringe on my rights to not believe the same things they do, or to have a government free of their belief system.<br /><br />As far as the "star wars" part of my post, what exacly do you mean then, when you imply that it is a good thing that it is becoming harder to be a non-christian in america? Why would you consider that to be a good thing?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Originally posted by Rudderman:<br /> This has become a very amusing thread...

What is amusing, Rudderman, is that just about every problem in the American Culture today, can be traced back to the beginning of the Liberal removal of and denial to any place for God in our public sphere. And you as well as other Americans are blind to it. <br /><br />"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land"<br /><br />2 Chronicles 7:14<br /><br />Now this, Rudderman, is the Covenant that America was miracalulously created under, this is the Covenant that has allowed, to date, America to become what is has. This is the Covenant that allowed a country to exist that became a refuge for so many of your countrymen. This is the Covenant that our Fore Fathers new had to be kept in order for this great American experiment to work.<br /><br />This is a National Covenant I will cleave to rather than some self divined sense of order, offered up by a Rudderman, a JB, a Plywoody, a Rolmops or a US 9th Ciruit Court of Appeals, et al.<br /><br />I think your opinion is out of place on this American issue.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Yes Rudderman,<br /><br />The fact that we managed to grab onto a pretty sweet piece of real estate, rich in natural resources, by killing off (murdering!) most of the people that were already living there (after throwing off the government who financed us even getting here in the first place) has nothing whatsoever to do with our success as a nation. Neither did the fact that much of our agriculture was powered by slaves for the first half of our history. No, we have managed to get where we are because we were so pious, and because of that, God loves us just a little bit more than everyone else.<br /><br />BTW, slave holding and exterminating the indians were both just dandy with those moral, christian founding fathers. I guess those things weren't considered wicked by God.<br /><br />We had no problems as a nation until those pesky godless liberals came along and runined everything by dissing God. <br /><br />And any of you who happen to live elsewhere or don't already agree with this fundamentalist mindset needn't bother offering your viewpoints or opinions. They have no meaning if they don't fit into the Christian Right wing worldview.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Good job Woodrat. You read well. Right out of the Liberal play book!

 

[woodrat]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

Dang! I'm supposed to be reading from a playbook? No one ever gave me one!

 

[12Footer]

Re: Declaration of Independence banned from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?!!?!?

OK, Woodrat, I wanted to save the redundant key-pecking, but if you turely need an answer to that---<br />You stated "

Now I guess if the goal is to work towards a fundamentalist Christian state, where non-believers are either "converted" or driven out, then the fact that it is getting harder every day to be a non-believer in america is a GOOD thing, and is helping to move us down the road towards our own version of the Taliban, right here in the USA.<br /><br />Jeez! "

<br />I would just love for you to give me just ONE example where Christians (Evangelical or otherwise) are "working towrards a fundamentalist Christian state, where non-believers are either "converted" or driven out"!!! <br />Ab-q-surd! Ludicrous! STAR WARS! Fiction! A joke( if it wern't for the fact that you truely belive this?)<br />Then, there is your insidious, hidious comparison of the Christian American as "our own version of the Taliban?!!!!"<br />That is pure Star Wars fear-mongering! That is sick! It makes me stand here in utter disbelief that an American, regardless of hyphenation, could concieve such a twisted view of what Christians are! I am offended greatly!<br /><br />That is what "persicution" is, Woodrat! Just because you are not standing over a group of people and whipping them out of your country, does not make your statement any LESS than pure, non-diluted persicution, just as suredly as if you tied the Christian to the pole,and unleashed the lions!<br />We have as much of a right to believe in God as you do to believe in anything else! You have no right to exclude me!<br /><br />You asked for clarification, and you have received it!