1991 120 hp Force/Chrysler No Spark at amy cylinder, please help.

dan2744

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So I just did a spark test in the dark and I have spark on 2, 3 and 4 but not on one. I tried known working spark plug for one and still nothing. I sprayed pre-mix in cylinder and it still did not try to run. Compression on cylinders is in the 120's for each. The timing is completely off but I figured that I would get something. Here is the video that I just took on cylinder 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEH7dg2F7XA
 

dan2744

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I have spark on all 4 cylinders, wire on coil is shorting across, so it's just the coil wire. Can I buy a replacement wire? I also did another compression test and it was 125, 119, 125, 125. If I spray pre-mix in cylinders it will still not fire. How can I get the timing close enough to run so i can time it? Can I take off flywheel and line up the marks by eyeing it? Or do i just time it while it cranks?
 

Jiggz

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You can still time it without the engine running. First you need to mechanically "zero" it first by doing the following:
1. Remove #1 spark plug
2. Use a screw driver or even better a dial gauge and insert it into the plug hole on #1 cylinder. Rotate the flywheel by hand (if it is too hard you can also remove the rest of the spark plugs) and watch the screwdriver or dial gauge rise until you can tell the #1 piston is at TDC.
3. With #1 piston at TDC. verify the flywheel "zero" mark is perfectly aligned to the stationary marker.
4. Verify the throttle cam mark is also aligned with the carb's throttle linkage eccentric screw slot and the carbs' throttle valves (butterflies) are fully closed. You will need a flashlight to look into the bore of the carb to do this. Do not confuse the choke valve with the throttle valve that is located at the front of the carb while the throttle valve is way inside the bore. If the throttles are not fully closed you need to adjust the timing tower linkage rod, one that connects the tower shaft to the cam and also the eccentric screw.
5. Verify the idle screw located at the bottom of the timing tower is not pushing against the block but just barely touching.

At this point you are mechanically zero. The next step is to verify you are electrically zero. You will need a timing light (regular inductive type) and a second person to do this unless you have a remote starter.

1. Remove all spark plugs but keep the wire plugs connected and ensure they are all grounded. If you do not have a spark plug tester/ground kit, you can make one easily using copper wire wrapped to each spark plug threaded portion and connecting the copper wire to ground.

2. Connect the timing light to power and its sensor to the #1 plug wire
3. Aim the timing light at the flywheel and stationary timing mark.
4. With the control throttle in neutral, have a second person start or crank the engine. Note you are not trying to start the engine instead you just want to induce spark on #1 spark plug to check the timing. The timing should indicate zero degree on the flywheel. Usually, this is the single mark on the flywheel while the other markings next to each other are the WOT timing marks. If the timing is not at zero, adjust the timing rod. This is connected at the very top end of the tower shaft just behind the stationary timing mark. Continue doing this until the timing is at zero.

You are now mechanically and electrically zero'ed. However, while at it, you need to verify the WOT timing. And there are only a few steps more to do it.

5. Continuing from the above steps after verifying zero timing, place a small jumper wire across the interlock switch. This is usually located under the lower carb and has two wire connections. Place the jumper across these two wires.

6. Place the control throttle all the way forward in WOT position. Verify the carbs' throttles are full open. Again you need to verify these using a flashlight and looking into the carb's bore.

7. Aim the timing light to the stationary marker and have the second person crank the engine.

The timing should be set to 30 degrees. This is usually the middle mark amongst the three markings next to each other on the flywheel.

After setting the WOT timing, you need to set the idle screw for initial idle running settings. Turn the idle screw to push against the block so the carbs' throttles are slightly open. Note when you do this the cam's marking will not be aligned with the eccentric screw slot/marking anymore. And this is perfectly normal. Next set the carbs' fuel air mixture screws 1 1/8 ~1 1/4 out from slightly seated. Do this on both carbs.

Replace plugs, remove jumper wires and you are ready to do a test run. Post your results.
 

dan2744

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Cool, thanks Jiggz I really appreciate it, this should help a lot! I appreciate the detail in your response, I will post results in the next couple of days.
 

dan2744

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I tried your method up to the time light (which I dont have), I made sure gas was all clean and mixed well. I knudged the throttle forward and sure enough she ran and ran well! Thanks guys for everything, I just need to make some adjustments to throttle cable and I should be good to go. I also found a broken ground wire that grounded out the cdm"s.
 

Jiggz

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It's imperative you do the WOT timing at least. This is to ensure the motor will run optimally. Inductive timing light costs less than $20 at Harbor Freight. Or you can just rent from some auto store. Congrats and thank you for posting back your conclusion.
 

dan2744

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Yea, i'll get a timing light just to have one. I didn't realize that the linkage played such a big role in the whole thing but, now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense. I also learned once again, to never trust attorneys, the guy I bought it from is an attorney and he told me that the gas was put in recently and that it should be fine. I need the small parts to make the throttle linkage work because I have it rigged right now.
 

dan2744

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I started it and let it idle and it quit, i took out spark plugs and noticed that the bottom 2 cylinders were filled with water, what now? I forgot to put the metal gasket on the exhaust manifold, would it leak in water there or is it the bottom spacer plate? I know that to make the spacer plate work I had to grind some of the studs down in order for it to mount to the L-drive so i bet its leaking inside there. Where can I get a cooling system diagram?
 

Jiggz

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It's obviously leaking water from the exhaust manifold. This is exactly what happens when you try to save a few minutes of work to end up doing more hours if not days later. Hopefully it did not do any damage to the two bottom cylinders otherwise you could end up getting another block or powerhead. Also with 2 cycle engines, there is one thing they are not very good at, prolong idling.

The exhaust manifold requires two gaskets, one for the exhaust plate and one for the cover. Here's a diagram and item #25, #26 and #27 are the ones you need to focus on.
 

Jiggz

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When replacing the exhaust plate and cover, make sure you cross torque and do it in steps (do not tighten one bolt all the way and go the next, instead tighten it half way and do the rest and then come back re-tighten all the way on all bolts). Also since these bolts are subject to high heat and sea water or even fresh water, use anti-seize on them to prevent seizing. The bolts are 1/4"-20 and uses standard torque of 70 IN-LBS. After completing installation, squirt some fuel oil mix into the two bottom cylinders and check compression.
 
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dan2744

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Is the lack of this metal plate more than likely the cause of the leaking? I can't believe I forgot to put that thing on there, I think water even came out of the bottom carb.
 

dan2744

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I just bought that gasket off of boats.net. How fast do they usually ship, I have never used them before. What is the best way to get the water out of the engine, the compression in cylinder four was 225, from the water I'm guessing. Everything seems fine and I don't think anything got destroyed.
 

Jiggz

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When you remove the exhaust cover and plate that will be the right time to rid of the water on the two bottom cylinders. Remove all spark plugs and you should be able to rotate the flywheel easily and that will rid of the water. It will take a few rotation of the flywheel but at least you should be able to see from the exhaust ports if there is any water remaining. Depending on how much water got in, it could also end up in the crankshaft which mean you will need to keep rotating that flywheel or even using a suction hose inserted from the exhaust ports into the intake ports. While waiting for the gasket, go ahead and open the exhaust manifold and start sucking all the water you can get. And then keep the pistons at BDC to air dry the cylinder and also the crankcase. Just make sure you spray it with fuel oil mix as soon as it is dry to prevent rust.
 

dan2744

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I received the gasket and then did the process of tightening that you suggested. Compression is still between 120 and 125 across all 4 cylinders. It looked like I still had water in it after the 4 days of sitting and airing out. I started it and it had some water in the cylinders still. At first i thought it might still be leaking but the more it ran the less water there was in the cylinders. I think I am in the clear but now mt trim quit going up and down so I have to figure that out now. I made a video of it running so that someone might be able to see if anything is wrong. Everything looked like it was working fine. The video is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jKDnzFhhto. What is the first thing to check if the trim motor is not coming on?
 

Jiggz

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For the T&T, there is ckt bkr inside the engine cowling. Make sure it is not tripped.
 

Jiggz

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It seems to be smoking too much. Are you sure you are using 50:1 fuel oil mix? Properly mixed? Are the air fuel screws at 1 1/8~1 1/4 turn from lightly seated. Have you checked timing? Spark plugs BUHW/BUHX NGK or Champion L76V? Remember you should use the idle screw mixture to set idling speed and NOT THE AIR SCREWS. Also from the sound of it looks like idle is too low. Anyone of these can contribute to heavy smoking.
 
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dan2744

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It's a 25 to 1 mix, I thought I needed to do that because it has new rings and bearings? I set the air screws but have not touched the idle screws. I ran out of 2-cycle gas so didn't have enough to keep it running for long but i did finally drain out the 18 gallons of bad gas. I have 2 sets of plugs, one set of champions and the other are the NGK. I just really hope it's not taking on water and I will be happy. The throttle linkage needs to be set better because i am converting the outboard powerhead to the L-drive. To start it I have to have the throttle almost half way down, is that just some adjusting?
 

Jiggz

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For starting, since you haven't set the idle screw yet, yes you will need to move down the throttle to open the throttles a little bit. After you set the idle screw, it shouldn't require as much forwarding of the control throttle.

If you have new rings, then you are doing OK with 25:1 mix until you complete the break in procedure. And yes, with that kind of mix you will have heavy smokes. Personally, I like the NGK plugs but that all depends on owners.

To find you if you are taking on water on the bottom cylinder, ran the engine for about a minute or two with cooling water. Shut it down and immediately pull the plugs on the suspected cylinders and check the tips. if there is water and it is so heavy that it causes misfires you will definitely see water wetting. But if the leak is so small it never stops combustion, the tips will be clean as a whistle due to steam cleaning. If there is no water intrusion, then the plug tips will be a little brown to dark brown with some carbon in it. I think you are on the right track and should just be fine tuning what you have accomplished.
 

dan2744

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I'm hoping that the water I saw today on my plugs was left over water from the first flooding. I should know more tomorrow because I plan on getting it to idle better for longer periods of time. Thanks for all your help Jiggz, you have been really helpful. I think i'm gonna go with the NGK's. If I end up finding that the block is cracked or something catastrophic, can it be fixed or is it an anchor?
 
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