1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Careful with a "wet" system as it will freeze! You want either a FM200 system (pricey) or a "dry" system; however, the water source and dry valve need to be heated! There are anti-freeze systems as well, I cannot remember the name? CPVC or Blazemaster needs to be 100% sealed in soffits and chases as UV rays will break it down. Copper is a good choice; albeit, more expensive!

I once sold a stand alone "dry" system to a Big "R" farm store in Falcon, Colorado...no direct water source...when I quoted the developer over $1million for the complete code required system (100,000 gallon cistern, UL rated pump, generator with shunt, etc....), it would've stalled the store being built. I love thinking outside the box...I got the local FD (Falcon Fire, approx 2 miles down the highway, to accept pressurized dry system with smoke and heat alarms...If I remember correctly (it's been over 12 years ago) the system ended up costing them just over $35K?! When the large enough water supply made it that way it was converted to a wet system! Basically, it would alarm the FD of an alarm (whether smoke, heat or frangible bulb breakage, pressure release). Then the FD could respond with 2 engines and a Tender and connect to the FDC...that would be the sole water supply!

I like the idea, sold a ton of pre-action systems to auto body shops...my only caveat for you is be careful if the bulbs/heads get painted...they lose their respective ratings because it insulates the frangible bulbs (or fusible links). Of course, I'm not sure if you plan painting a lot?

Cheers!

~Brett

I see you understand where im coming from, I dont even have a box to think out of The building will be insulated and have HVAC installed.

What it comes down to, this isnt intented to be an OSHA approved booth, and the majority of paint it will see wil be water borne latex paints..but also a significant amount of urethanes, and other finishes. Its a HOBBY BOOTH! hehe

You seem to have a professional handle on this baja, and i can tell you, the calculations regarding flow and friction loss are a real PIA!.. I just settled on a tree form with the entire trunk at 1" and the branches set up under 8' at 3/4....

The biggest challenge is the PSI from a well..thats why the closed system, with a booster pump , backflow preventor, and maybe a pressure tank or ACV....

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Two layers of 5/8" gyp board and rated doors would go a long way in containing anything.....then maybe the sprinkler would have a chance before things could migrate. Overthinking I, sure!

Theres going to be one 5/8th layer of fire rock between levels,,,,2 layers huh?....is the gain worth that?

 

[archbuilder]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Two would give you a 2 hour rating, but 1 later beats 1/2" all day. Layer is a 1 hour rating, 1/2" is only 20 minutes. The reality is its probably going to fail much faster if there is much paint in there. Anyhow my paint booth was made out of clear plastic, similar to the bubble! How are you going to move air through the booth? You mentioned a fan, pressurized or negative pressure?

 

[bajaunderground]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

I see you understand where im coming from, I dont even have a box to think out of The building will be insulated and have HVAC installed.

What it comes down to, this isnt intented to be an OSHA approved booth, and the majority of paint it will see wil be water borne latex paints..but also a significant amount of urethanes, and other finishes. Its a HOBBY BOOTH! hehe

You seem to have a professional handle on this baja, and i can tell you, the calculations regarding flow and fricktion loss are a real PIA!.. I just settled on a tree form with the entire trunk at 1" and the branches set up under 8' at 3/4....

The biggest challenge is the PSI from a well..thats why the closed system, with a booster pump , backflow preventor, and maybe a pressure tank or ACV....

OSHA has nothing to do with Fire Protection Systems, that's all dictated by IBC (international Building Code) and NFPA 13, 13R, 14...etc...
If the IBC says you need one, NFPA says how it is to be done! In your case it's not required, so anything is better than nothing!



I used a simple flow calculator (made on an excel spreadsheet, simply plug in piping coefficients and figure what works with the pressures and flows you have). There's also an ancient MSDOS based program that was called HAAS worked but putting in the remote area (worst case scenario system functioning) and allowing for all...worked well, as long as you never made a mistake!!

Anyway, use a gridded system (Backflow, Riser, 1 main, 1 cross main and interconnected branch lines...) What type/temp heads you plan on using? I assume the wetting system is open deluge style? so design is whatever get the water on the areas you want it?
I'm strictly speaking for the FPS.

Here's a basic picture of what I'm saying...



If you have any questions, send me a PM...I'll help you with what I can...it's been 12 years since I sold any FPS! I've sold residential, industrial and commercial systems!

~Brett

 

[sphelps]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Hope ya don't mind if I tag along Zool ! I have made it to page 8 started reading this morning . Great work on the fuel tank ! Looking forward to more cool stuff in the following pages .
Just thinking on your paint booth . Installing mineral fiber/fire safing insulation before drywall might give it a little better fire rating .
I,m sure arch has got a UL design tucked away somewhere ..
Later SP..

 

[bajaunderground]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Sorry, my first duplicate post...deleted

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Ok, I got ya..its the sum of the total. I dont really store alot of paint, i just buy as i go..so it dont get stale...and i keep most chemiclas in the concrete block building. There will be some thinners and stuff there tho.

As for the fan, im trying to find a happy medium....dont want too much negative pressure pulling dust from every nook or leak.

If by the book, i would need 100 fpm (feet per minute) for cross draft or 50 fpm for down draft. This design has (12) 16x20 paint arrestor filters in 2 grids on the lower portion of the exhaust wall, feeding a 2x4x12 plenum...in there will be a 5900 cfm shutter fan blowing out to the field.

There will be a normal set of swinging barn doors on the outer entry, then a second set of grid doors with a total of (16) 20x20 tacky intakes.

so the OSHA calculation would be 12w x 10h x 100 = 12000 cfm for cross and 6000 cfm for down...thats the gold standard for a pro booth..im looking at it as 12 x 24 x 10 = 2880 cubic feet so i will be changing air twice per minute..which is plenty

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Hope ya don't mind if I tag along Zool ! I have made it to page 8 started reading this morning . Great work on the fuel tank ! Looking forward to more cool stuff in the following pages .
Just thinking on your paint booth . Installing mineral fiber/fire safing insulation before drywall might give it a little better fire rating .
I,m sure arch has got a UL design tucked away somewhere ..
Later SP..

Welcome aboard Sam, good to have you ...page 8 huh? yea this thing is growing and sorry it gets off track sometimes....when i get crazy ideas...

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

So far i picked up a batch of these cheap, like 3 bux a head....i got them off ebay new old stock....



oh, and I will absolutely be picking your brain as this moves along ...thanks Brett!

As for the regulations, i guess i would fall under 13d for single and 2 family....but its an outbuilding with no permanant living quarters.

 

[archbuilder]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

You might check the heads, I do work in a mall and all the heads were recalled a while back. Not sure what the issue is but you might want to check into it.

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

You might check the heads, I do work in a mall and all the heads were recalled a while back. Not sure what the issue is but you might want to check into it.

Yea arch, there was a voluntary recall on csc heads, it appears the rubber o-ring can deteriorate over time....I dont think it was these tyco style ones tho...Im still wating on them in the mail...ill check them out when they get here...thanks for the heads up...this is just another learn as i go thing lol

 

[bajaunderground]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Let me know if you need heads...I can get you any you need? You pay for shipping, I'll supply! Your want fast response 165* heads! My buddy, that I went to Tennessee to pick up his new interceptor, he's still a manager at SimplexGrinnell, where I used to do sales!

Let me know how many?

~Brett

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Let me know if you need heads...I can get you any you need? You pay for shipping, I'll supply! Your want fast response 165* heads! My buddy, that I went to Tennessee to pick up his new interceptor, he's still a manager at SimplexGrinnell, where I used to do sales!

Let me know how many?

~Brett

Thanks brett, once i figure out how many total i need, il get in touch with you!..The ones I bought are the glass bulb type 155 deg i think...I should be able to make the grid design work but ill still need to branch out some leads outside the mains.....are dead ends to a head not advisable?....the upstairs has a vaulted ceiling I need to feed from inside the knee walls up between the roof beams inside of the insulation. I also want to run a line down to a hose bib, to use some of the pressure and help drain the system..

 

[bajaunderground]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Thanks brett, once i figure out how many total i need, il get in touch with you!..The ones I bought are the glass bulb type 155 deg i think...I should be able to make the grid design work but ill still need to branch out some leads outside the mains.....are dead ends to a head not advisable?....the upstairs has a vaulted ceiling I need to feed from inside the knee walls up between the roof beams inside of the insulation. I also want to run a line down to a hose bib, to use some of the pressure and help drain the system..

The 'old school' way of installation was a schedule type system 10 heads off 2', 5 heads of 1 1/2', 2 heads of 1" (something like that). Never designed one of those (installed a few, but never gave much thought, just followed the blueprints!). Anyway, dead ends are fine...what you really need to know are the flows and pressures at the water supply line (if outside the shop, then just figure the loss from that point to the backflow and the the elevation gain and loss (-.434lbs/ft Gain and + .434lb/ft Loss). Type of piping, ID, ells, T's, fittings and K-factors (sprinkler head outlet size). Drains are highly advisable as are inspection outlets (typically one in the same in a commercial setting).

Depending on flows, the max distance between heads in a industrial setting is 10' in a residential it's 20' (with the right heads). In a light occupancies (offices, schools, etc) the max sqft for each head is like 225'. If you're trying for the closest match for a industrial it'd be 100sqft (10' x 10') with high flow heads...You might not want Quick Response heads if you expect higher temps for extended amounts of time, you'd want standard response or slow response heads. There are a few variables; however, it's not required by any code for a personal paint booth, so as I stated earlier, anything is better than nothing.

If you're running anything smaller than 1" supply line into your shop, you'll want residential style sprinklers that can reach the 20 x 20 (or 16' x 16'). Anything commercial will not allow the pressure to be maintained while flowing more than 1-2 heads?

You need to know supply ID, Static Pressure, Residual Pressure and Flow. Even the times of day matter for design in a residential system?!

Give me a basic drawing (plan view and elevation view) I'll give you an idea of how many and where you'd want to place the heads?!

Here's a good little overview from Federated Ins.



~Brett

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Ok Brett, great....I have to redo all my new measurements. Im probably gonna run 100 sf per head on the lower level, with a 10 x 10 grid unsing extended coverage heads and maybe use the standard coverage heads I have upstairs. The well pump supply line is at lease 1" (ill check that) and the t off from the pit is only 5 feet from the building wall where the backflow and riser will be. I should be able to maintain 60+ psi inside the system with the booster pump and 1 " copper for the mains and t off to 3/4 for the short head branches. Im using the k factors off a viking design booklet and calculating backwards against the water flow in segments...a-b, b-c ect. If I can get the sum total at around 50+- psi, ill have a cushion for unexpected ells and such. Ill get you a drawing when I remeasure everything.

I really appreciate your help on this

Sorry to bore everyone on this stuff, but it could be worse...i could be just showing another glass lam.....well, ill show those too

 

[mr300z87]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Lost me there^^^^ I sit in meeting where the contractors talk in that language, and I am sure they feel the same when we talk telecomm infrastructure. So if you need some internet or TV connections in your shop let me know. Lol! Here comes the snow and cold so keep warm. Look forward to seeing more glass work. Have a great evening.

 

[bajaunderground]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Ok Brett, great....I have to redo all my new measurements. I'm probably gonna run 100 sf per head on the lower level, with a 10 x 10 grid unsing extended coverage heads and maybe use the standard coverage heads I have upstairs. The well pump supply line is at lease 1" (ill check that) and the t off from the pit is only 5 feet from the building wall where the backflow and riser will be. I should be able to maintain 60+ psi inside the system with the booster pump and 1 " copper for the mains and t off to 3/4 for the short head branches. Im using the k factors off a viking design booklet and calculating backwards against the water flow in segments...a-b, b-c ect. If I can get the sum total at around 50+- psi, ill have a cushion for unexpected ells and such. Ill get you a drawing when I remeasure everything.

I really appreciate your help on this

Sorry to bore everyone on this stuff, but it could be worse...i could be just showing another glass lam.....well, ill show those too

Sounds good Zool! If they're extended coverage heads, you'll want to use what their design parameters are...too close and you risk a neighboring head "cooling off" another one, rendering non-functional and that might be be beneficial for putting out a fire?

I should tell you that from a Life Safety standpoint (NFPA 101), not one person has ever died from a fire in a building equipped with a proper functioning/designed fire protection system. They are that good! In a residential system they are designed to keep a fire at bay in lieu of putting out the fire...however, they usually put out the fire anyway (apparently, no one told them?)

When I was a firefighter we actually ran on a house fire in a basement from a cloths hamper too close to a water heater that caught fire...the heat ended up popping the main water line (sweated copper, 3/4") it allowed the fire to smolder for hours...we got called when there was visible smoke...I was 1st on scene and the hose man was already in the basement...when I brought him hose, I was wondering how he got so much water in the basement already as he had only been down there for about 15 seconds...it was from the mainline..simply, yet luckily effective!

~Brett

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Lost me there^^^^ I sit in meeting where the contractors talk in that language, and I am sure they feel the same when we talk telecomm infrastructure. So if you need some internet or TV connections in your shop let me know. Lol! Here comes the snow and cold so keep warm. Look forward to seeing more glass work. Have a great evening.

hehe mr300..its all greek to me too, the good news is i found a free hydraulic calculator to help figure it all out, the bad news is, its only in metric....so i have to convert that too!:frusty:

now if only it was nice out....

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Sounds good Zool! If they're extended coverage heads, you'll want to use what their design parameters are...too close and you risk a neighboring head "cooling off" another one, rendering non-functional and that might be be beneficial for putting out a fire?

I should tell you that from a Life Safety standpoint (NFPA 101), not one person has ever died from a fire in a building equipped with a proper functioning/designed fire protection system. They are that good! In a residential system they are designed to keep a fire at bay in lieu of putting out the fire...however, they usually put out the fire anyway (apparently, no one told them?)

When I was a firefighter we actually ran on a house fire in a basement from a cloths hamper too close to a water heater that caught fire...the heat ended up popping the main water line (sweated copper, 3/4") it allowed the fire to smolder for hours...we got called when there was visible smoke...I was 1st on scene and the hose man was already in the basement...when I brought him hose, I was wondering how he got so much water in the basement already as he had only been down there for about 15 seconds...it was from the mainline..simply, yet luckily effective!

~Brett

Yea brett, im still trying to get the layout mapped, but it seems i need to get the rest of the framing in, so i can determine any obstructions and find the path of least resistance for the piping....these barn beams are thick so the less drilling the better....

my sister has a bag of bleached whites flash on her, she tied it in a black plastic bag.....then opened it later ...Ive been tru 2 fires, one a total loss, the other i lived in a hotel for a while.....I like the idea of having the system, just hope I never find out if it works or not!

 

[zool]

Re: 1988 Imperial 280sf engine swap and restoration (pics)

Update:

I got a chance yesterday to laminate the other cutout...used the same procedure as the other, and the same mold. Ill throw those pics up.
clamped the mold in place...





Then layed up 3 layers of 17oz biax



Used the heat gun again to cure it.