Winter refit - transom

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

It's officially effing cold here in MN. Not the worst I've ever seen, but it's past the point where you spend time outside for relaxation unless you're doing some sort of winter sport. I can see St. Anthony falls steaming from my office window as I type this.. the water is just above freezing itself, yet it's steaming because the air is so much colder.

Of course, this is the week that my truck chose to have a brake cylinder seize up, so I get to spend part of the weekend outside in single digit temps trying to take it apart. I think I'll build an igloo and put a torpedo heater in it.


Not much boat work got done last night due to tool failure. Also I was debating what to do with my curved upper transom section. I think I'm going to cut it off and re-skin (after talking to an expert over at bateau.com) to save time and resin. So the transom core when it goes in will stick up 10 inches over the outer hull fiberglass for a while.

I took the newly laminated transom core off the plastic on the floor and cleaned up... the core is solid, dead flat, and ready to go. 15 plies of pine 1.5 inches thick. Tonight I may try setting it in place and drilling clamp holes, etc. I'm not going to try gluing it on until my new shipment of wood flour arrives.. no more cabosil for now.

I think I may try to wire up one of my old cordless saws to work... I need a circular saw and I can't afford a new one ATM. Or rather I can't afford anything decent, and I don't want a junky one.


Erik

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Winter refit - transom

I do not see how you guys do it. The cold ruins so many things, and it just hurts. Yes I know I get REALLY hot here in the summer, but I guess you just get used to what you grow up with.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Well, it's like anywhere else... some days the weather doesn't let you go outside and do things. Here it's a few days of really cold weather in the winter and occasional strong storms in the spring.

Down south on the coast it could be extreme heat preventing comfortable outdoor stuff.

There aren't a lot of mountains near here and I don't ice fish, so staying inside isn't a big deal when it's cold. I just work on boats. In about April or when the ice-out comes it'll be getting old, and then I'm really glad to get on (and under) the water again.

I like the alternation of seasons a lot... the winter cleans up after the summer, things renew in the spring...


Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Really quick update: I've been dithering for a week about the curved section of glass above the height of the old transom. To make it match the new transom core, which is full height, I needed to fill in the top section, which was 10 inches tall, curved out at the center 3/4 inch, and wasn't strictly speaking structural.

After posting a question and having some discussion about the boat and its structure over at bateau.com (they answer questions about structure and layup if you buy supplies from them, which I had) I decided to cut it out.

Literally. So I marked off the curved section of my transom down to the "ledge" where it popped out from the lower hull, and cut down from the corners to that level, then across. This removed the curved section and left a small ledge that will help me fair in a new flat section of outer skin.

So basically I'll make a composite panel as wide as the transom with a couple of layers of glass on each side, and make it tall as the new gunwales. Once the transom core is in and this panel is on, I can move on to more interesting things.

This shouldn't have taken a week (I'm starting to feel my schedule crunching as spring inches closer) but I started at first trying to fill the gap in, which felt wrong, then had to step back and think.

I think an important part of this (or any) project for me is to make sure I do the best job I can... if I do something half baked I feel bad about the project going forward, which snowballs into more poor work.

Plus I've been finishing my vacuum bagging table (see other thread).

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Okay, I finally made progress on this thing.

The transom got glued in this last weekend, using about 2 liters of resin and 6-7 pounds of wood flour. Took only about an hour to do.

I used a pulley bolted to the joists overhead to maneuver the transom into position in the boat, drilled a few holes for clamps to serve as registration points, then troweled on the peanut butter.

In this pic you can see the ends of the bolts on the inside... 3x bolts in the area of the sterndrive hole, 2 partway up in the holes for the trim tab cylinders, and two new holes a bit farther up than that. The paired 2x4s on the top with the C-clamp are my way of extending the reach of those clamps.

From the back, the transom looks busy:

You can see the two nearly full width 2x4s on top, with the half width one below riding the top 2 bolts in the sterndrive opening and a single small bolt at the bottom of that opening.

The top part of the transom sticks up over the glass on the outside because I cut off the curved section of glass that was there - the glass currently ends just above that top 2x4.

I was going to put some short flat panels on top of the lower half of the hull for a gunwale anyway, so I'm just going to extend the transom panel down another 10 inches to cover this space, then I'll fair the corners.

The epoxy took about 2 days to fully harden in the garage temps. I spent the rest of the weekend getting the vacuum table finished and cutting panels for the rear interior of the boat - I'm going to laminate some 1/2" ply onto the inside of the hull and glass over it for stiffness and strength.

I would have finished this at the same time as the transom but I discovered when I was working the position the panels that I need to saw/clear off a bit more space forward so I have room to glass. So a bit more demolition tonight, then fitting of those panels and gluing.

Then it's a big night of glassing over it all later in the week.

Erik

 

[BobsGlasstream]

Re: Winter refit - transom

erikgreen,
Glad to see you starting to make some progress. It's looking good.
Bob

 

[SKIBUM1M]

Re: Winter refit - transom

If you build your boat as sturdy as you built those transom clamps it will be a tank.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

If you build your boat as sturdy as you built those transom clamps it will be a tank.

Yep.. my goal is to make it a very light floaty tank

I spent some time last night taking out more deck sections and rail further forward to make space for the side panels. I want those in before I glass, so I can cover them and the transom in the same span of cloth. I had discovered that I hadn't cleaned enough space off to fit them in.. I need at least 6-7 inches of clean glass forward of the panels and a couple inches around them to properly bond them in place.

Tonight I have to help teach SCUBA, so I'll only have time to grind and clean up, but tomorrow should be good for more gluing and possibly the first glass, which is some tabs to cover the edges of everything smoothly.

I really, really want to make some visible progress... I'm feeling the calendar creeping up on me...

Erik

 

[SKIBUM1M]

Re: Winter refit - transom

you do scuba, I could have really used you last year when I dropped a prop in the lake. I hear you about spring is coming.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Heh, yeah. All the local lakes in the Twin Cities here have regular fall clean-ups... folks with metal detectors and such who scour the bottom for anchors, props, or whatever falls off boats. There's even a "summer party" area where boats raft up in one lake where divers later find everything from beer cans to swimsuits.

Personally I always take a shower after being in that lake...



I got a little done last night before class, basically just some grinding to get more of the inner sides of the hull clean and to remove a couple obstacles to getting the side panels glued in. I may get lucky and be able to glue in the side panels plus fillet and tab the transom and sides tonight, we'll see.

I'm out of town for most of the weekend though, so I won't get to do much on it until next week :\

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Quick update - I was out of town last weekend so nothing got done then.

Edit: I must have missed a day somewhere. I forgot to post that I now have the side panels glued in. They are 1/2" plywood extending six feet forward from the transom, and they give the sides there some nice stiffness. I did them in two sections, upper is about 9 inches tall, lower is about 20, divided by the uppermost "chine" on the hull side. As mentioned below I'll be glassing them into place at the same time I do the transom.

--
This week so far I've gotten some clean-up done (boat vacuuming and basement sweeping - got to keep dust down and things from underfoot), and set up a stand for my rolls of fiberglass at one end of the new work table I built for my vacuum bagging setup. That'll make it much easier to measure and cut new glass.

Last night I spent the time I had cutting fiberglass pieces for the transom. I'm using DB1700 cloth (biaxial without mat, 17oz) in a 55 inch width that I trim as needed. I use a rotary pizza-type fabric knife. Definitely worth it if you don't have one.

I cut two pieces for each side at the stern, then three to overlap those and cover the transom. Each piece is longer than the one under it by a few inches to increase the amount of adhesion/strength when I apply it. So I have 7 large folded pieces of glass, from 6-8 feet long, up to 50 inches tall.

The total weight of the glass I cut (10-12 lbs) made me check my resin supply... I'm down to about a gallon and a half, not enough to be sure I can epoxy all this glass at once. So I ordered some more epoxy from US composites. I'll have to wait until after it arrives to do the transom glass. I also have to wait because I need an uninterrupted 3-4 hours to do it all... I'm going to work wet on wet, starting with the fillets at the edges, so it'll take a bit of time. I'll be switching to slow hardener for this just to be sure it gives me enough time.

In the meantime I have a panel for the rear of the boat to make with the vacuum table, plus I can start on bulkheads and the motor mount area.

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Wow... I know I haven't posted in this thread a long time when it's been pushed several pages back in posts.

I've been waiting for new epoxy to arrive, and Friday it finally did. So I got the glassing done on the transom and one set of the aft side panels. Total time was about 7 hours, 2pm to 7pm. Whew.

The transom core was in place already, it's made from 3 layers of 1/2" plywood.

I mixed up epoxy putty (epoxy + wood flour) to glue that on, and clamped it in place with some wood screws (little holes are easy to fill later).

Then I commenced the layup of the transom first.

My measurements weren't too far off. The layers are progressively larger, each overlapping the previous by about 4 inches.

Finished transom glass, 3 layers of DB1700 biaxial cloth with alternating strand directions (the middle layer is flipped over).

Total for this was about 3 gallons of resin.. I could have probably used a half gallon less, but I erred on the side of extra to make sure everything got wet out. No bubbles in the layup except a few at the corners, which will get filled when I finish the joint between the transom and sides.

The next day (about 18 hours later) I went after the port side panels. Since the resin was still a bit tacky (slow hardener plus cool air) I'm basically working wet on wet. The panels are sections of 1/2" plywood glued to the fiberglass of the boat's side that I'm covering with biax cloth. They thicken the laminate there to stiffen the side and make the whole aft section stronger, which I need for some of the modifications I'll be making to the boat (among which is the top cap removal for the whole boat).

I puttied the edges with wood flour glue to let the glass lay smooth on them.. worked for the most part, but I got some bubbles. I really need a router.

The panels are covered with 2 layers of DB1700 cloth... which ran me almost completely out of resin, nearly another 2 gallons worth of epoxy. So I ordered more and decided to let the starboard side wait. I will have sanding and grinding to do to ensure a good bond with the transom, but I'd have to do that anyway to clean up some spots where there's extra glass or resin.

The side glass overlaps the transom by about a foot, both layers.

The "dirt" and reddish stuff you see on the hull surface is mostly old resin and glue that's sound. I did grind the surface before glassing but I didn't want to go any farther just in case I punched through the gel coat

I may have to lay down some extra glass once all the structure is in place, just to make sure the hull isn't too thin there.

Once I get the engine stringers in place I'll be moving my demolition process forward, as you can see I'm just working near the transom at the moment except where I needed to clean/grind the sides for the panels.

Until my new epoxy order comes in I'll be working on templating and cutting plywood for bulkheads and stringers, and maybe some top cap demolition farther forward.

Erik

 

[BobsGlasstream]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Erikgreen,
Nice to hear from you again.
Nice looking glass work.
That red color in the glass must have been fairly standard many years ago. Mine has some of color.
Keep the pic's coming.
Bob

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Okay, here's an update after I was able to do some work this weekend. Funny how I never seem to get much done during the week, I'm just tired out after working all day and don't have much motivation... I'm sure that'll change as the winter weather finishes. Having sunlight in the evening and no snow makes me want to work on things.

Anyway, I've been finishing the glass on the transom and prepping for some internal structure work. I've done a little grinding and finished applying two layers of 17 oz. biaxial glass on the aft panels... these are wood cores I've glued to the aft sides of the boat forward of the transom a bit, then glassed over. They'll provide stiffness and good support for the sides now that the cap is off/gone.

I bought 5 sheets of Arauco 3/4" plywood (basically a premium exterior grade AC) for this. I'm going to use 1/2" or thinner ply where I can to save weight, but for these particular structural members I want to use a little overkill.

I templated shapes for and cut out the following:

• 2 engine stringer halves with knees, 6 inches high
• 2 engine stringer halves with knees and ribs
• 2 side ribs for the aft/engine area
• 1 full width bulkhead for the front of the engine compartment/aft of the main stringers

The way this boat is built, the full width bulkhead carries force from the main stringers back to the engine stringers which meet the transom. So this piece needs to be rather strong, or at least I want it to be more than a little strong. So after cutting and fitting it I decided to laminate both sides with some spare 3210 biaxial I had bought in bulk on ebay... this is the stuff where you buy a 20 lb box of scrap cloth.

The pieces are plenty big enough to be useful for things. The down side is that A) I don't need the mat since I'm using epoxy and B) It's super hard to wet out and uses a ton of resin.

But, it is very strong stuff. So I decided to do a hand layup then vacuum bag it. 1.5 liters of resin later I powered up the vacuum pump:

This is the second generation of my vacuum rig... the little secondary hose is the tube to the vacuum controller... putting it right at the fitting means the pump doesn't flick on and off 10 times a second when it starts up, there's some hysteresis in its operation.

Once I fixed a couple small leaks at the pleats I was able to disconnect the vac fitting (my new quick release fitting) and let the bag sit overnight. It still held a respectable vacuum this morning. I'll flip it and glass the other side tonight.

Then that bulkhead goes in with epoxy peanut butter bedding and 12 oz tape tabbing. I should also have the other pieces I've cut out laminated soon. The engine stringers will go in next, followed by the side ribs. If it all works out timing wise I'll do it all at once, wet on wet.

That'll take care of most of the structure. Here's a crappy mspaint sketch of what I'm doing:

The dark blue lines are the main stringers, gray is the transverse bulkhead, and the engine stringers are ribs are labeled. This arrangement seems to be typical of at least 70s and 80s Sea Ray boats.. the main stringers don't extend back to the transom.

Sometime soon I'll have to re-cut the sterndrive hole in the transom as well as cut the transom door, but that's after this structure is in place.

I did remove most of the rest of the top cap after checking that the hull was supported... boy, I bet the boat weighs a lot less now....

Erik

 

[sprintst]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Looks like you've got the vacuum bag setup nailed. There will be no bonding issues there...

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Nope, none at all. There were a few little spots right on top that could use a bit more resin.. I think I had the vacuum a bit too high (15 inches) and it starved a few strands here and there.

So I'll paint those a bit when I do the other side... ran out of time last night. I've decided I won't bag all the parts unless I have to.. with this heavy cloth I'll bag, but I'll use DB1700 and some spare 1708 I had from a past project to do the other parts. I'm thinking I may skip lamination on the table and just do it in the boat, that's the important part anyway.

I'm going to design/cut some parts for the starboard transom to support a stern davit/crane. This will be used for towing my sonar and possibly lifting some items out of the water (scuba tanks etc). I'm basically going to tie a flat platform at the transom top to the transom and starboard side of the boat with structure. I've also got to figure out structure near the transom door and cut that out too.

Much thinking to do... sure beats work

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Okay, time for a little more exposition on this project. Pics and diagrams coming soon.

I spent last night cleaning up some excess resin on the boat and on my new bulkhead... the second vacuum bag job I did on the bulkhead worked well, but I had extra epoxy left after the wet-out, and I figured I'd just add it in the spots that looked drier... it'd come out in the vacuum bag, right?

Well, I ended up getting some of it out, and it solidified inside the fittings at the hose end. So I spent some time digging it out today. Not sure my new $30 quick release fitting is going to survive. Grr.

But anyway, I thought I'd share my to-do list for the boat, since it's pretty extensive work, and may interest someone (plus it lets me organize my thoughts and start to plan better than I have).

1) Transom door install - I've rebuilt the transom structure in a way that will let me place a 2ft. by 3ft. door on the port side. The door will sit above a bilge on the inside that's sealed, so if a lot of water washes in the door it won't flood the whole hull. I'll have a dedicated bilge pump in there. I raised the whole deck 2 inches and the deck near the door will match the sill height, so there'll be a 3-4 inch step to come in/go out on the inside. I'll either put a dive ladder or a small platform and ladder on the outside.

2) Conversion - this boat was a cuddy cabin, but that was too danged hard to use for anchoring or mooring to buoys.. I had to duck in the cuddy, pop out the hatch, and bang my knees on the foredeck to do anything up there. Very hard to do solo in the boat, too. Plus the cuddy was too small to be useful for anything but storage. So I'm converting this thing to a center console. I've removed most of the top cap and cuddy roof at this point, and I'll be making...

3) A new cap. The old top cap is off for good, and I'm going to use 1/4" plywood panels covered in glass to form new bulwarks, then put a small rail on top that "folds" over into the hull. I'll be adding ribs to reinforce the hull now that the old cap is off, a sheer clamp, and some other support, like the panels I glassed into the sides. Removing the old cap should also take off several hundred pounds of weight. As a bonus, the original cap was "styled" to lean inward for its top foot. This plus panels on the original interior sides made usable space in the interior about 6.5 feet wide... the new bulwarks will lean outward or not at all and will add a good foot of usable beam space, or about 15 square feet to the boat interior.

4) New deck. I did the old deck when I had much less practice/skill with fiberglass.. it's made of 3/4" birch plywood, and I used a lot of resin and glass. It's very solid, but very very heavy. I'm keeping the two main stringers I did back then (solid and heavy is good there) but the rest of the internal structure I'm replacing (and going light on putty and resin) and the deck itself will now be 1/2" plywood with "top hat" style reinforcements, and in some areas it'll be molded glass hatches reinforced. Should be much, much lighter and just as strong. I'll use the same construction for the console.

5) Built in seats, storage cabinets, etc... I'm extending a few of my new ribs up to form the base for bench type seats, 3 per side. Each seat will have a fold up bottom cushion with storage beneath that extends under the deck, and enough room to stand two scuba tanks in there when the seat is propped up. Since the seats are also ribs, they'll stiffen the sides nicely.

6) New foredeck - I'm going to seal in part of the original structure up in the bow to make a foredeck even height with the gunwales there. That'll give me a watertight anchor well with a drain, plus plenty of room for cleats and maybe a winch, and maybe a bow pulpit. All easy to get to. I'll also put a full width bulkhead behind the foredeck, about two feet aft, and I'll mount my fuel tank transverse behind it, providing some ballast and also a sealed compartment that can't flood with the rest of the boat up there.

On top of all this I'll be obviously fairing and painting the boat inside and out, re-installing the I/O I pulled out last fall, installing a kicker motor, maybe getting time to build and install a better davit for my sonar unit, and maybe building a small enclosure for a head. I'm also going to add some things over the summer (but I'm planning for them now) like shore power and a charger in the console.

As you can see, I need to get moving on this project. I'll draw some pics to organize myself better soon, and post them here. I can already tell I'll like the new boat better than the old.... sooooo much more space.

Erik

 

[Willyclay]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Are you related to oops?

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

We're probably both sick the same way, if that's what you mean

 

[BobsGlasstream]

Re: Winter refit - transom

erikgreen,
I think we are a little sick for doing what we do.
Your plan does seem pretty aggressive but I know it's in good hands.
Keep up the good work.
Bob