what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

moderator1 · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

By Kanadakid;

what good is it to consumers to eliminate many quality lubricating oils from purchase because the did not pay the fee to the NMMA. The result is a limited number of oils offered at higher prices to marine engine consumers. Some of those oils offered based on others tests, do not match the protection given by some of the oild eliminated.

As an on-looker here, Kanadakid, TheOilDoc has posted quite clearly (to me now, and I hope some of the other folks that read into this) how this works, being certified or not. I don't see it as a way for a few oils to be sold at a very high price, I see it as verification of oils, to be good enough to pass certification test and KNOW (the consumer) that the oil meets the needs of their engine of choice. I've been in this buis. for a long time...back when BIA was an item you looked for, then the new NMMA, which is more suited to customer protection. I've seen alot change. I, for one, have learned a few things on this topic that I never thought of before, and a Thanks is in order to TheOilDoc, and as this post has remained relatively civil, I'd like to see it stay that way as I feel it has some very useful clarification.

LubeDude · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by moderator1: I, for one, have learned a few things on this topic that I never thought of before, and a Thanks is in order to TheOilDoc, and as this post has remained relatively civil, I'd like to see it stay that way as I feel it has some very useful clarification.

Me too, even though I hate to admit it.

Kanadakid · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Doc, If the purpose is for the consumer, why not full disclosure of the test results and oil poperties ? Why insn't oils like Mobile, Ashland and Texico participating in the F-WC rating process? If you think I'm going to put Neptuna oil in my 4 stoke OB instead of Mobile One...your crazy ! The NMMA is not like consumer reports where the primary function is to test and provide results the consumers. Quite the contrary, NMMA's priciple existence to service to the OB Manufacturer. We have a rating system based on performance that test all oils.....API. As long as the NMMA has their way you will never see full discloure of test results and oil contents. The minute they did that folks would see that some of the higher priced mfg oils are inferior to oils not with the F-WC logo. I still have not heard anyone speak about why Yamalube is more than double the price of other quality oils. How do they justify that ? What is so special about these oils that warrents their overpricing ? What patents do any of these folks have ? The fees for NMMA F-WC approval are quite substancial. As far as keeping this civil.....yes by all means we should remain gentlemen. Even though I staunchly dissagree with the doc, I mean no ill will towards him. Doc you do sound a little like a mouthpiece for the NMMA and can't belive that you don't see the relationship between overpriced oils (that are really no better than many of the competiton and in some cases not as good).....made by the NMMA outboard manufactueres and F-WC rated. This gives the OB manufacturer more leverage in saying...you have to use our oil. If you don't it better be F-WC rated which will be just as near the cost due to the high annual fees. IMO, its profit driven not consumer driven. I'm for testing all oils and full disclosure of the test results the oil ingredients. Then and only then will you be providing true consumer help and service. That would truly put and end the guessing and the "you'll loose your warrenty " fear tactics. Have a great weekend, Kid Think they don't know how to make a great oil ? What changes were made to the marginal Yamalube 4 stroke oil to pass the test ?

TOHATSU GURU · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

The answer is additives and they changed the formulation. As to what those additives are and what the formula is...Try asking Coke what their's are

PAkev · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by INTERNETOUTBOARDS: ...Try asking Coke what their's are

.......I'd like to teach .... the world to boat ...in perfect har mon y.

TheOilDoc · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by Kanadakid: If the purpose is for the consumer, why not full disclosure of the test results and oil poperties ?

That is a question for the oil makers, not the NMMA. The NMMA does publish their test results. The results are in every bottle of oil carrying the FC-W or TC-W3 certification showing it meets their standards and passes their tests. The standards, parameters, and procedures of those tests are openly available to you. Even if oil makers divulged the quality and origin of their base oil, the type of additives used, and their formulations, how would consumers interpret that? We'd be right back where we started, arguing about what formulation of whatever additives are the "best". And even if everyone was an oil scientist, would all this excuse the need for a certification approval? No. The NMMA exists to certify oils, not divulge formulations or interpret competitive tests. The Coke example is a good one. So is my Grandmother's guarded recipie for Sweet Potatoe Pie. BTW, can you post a copy of your personal tax returns and the returns from the business you work for? The IRS's certification of approval isn't enough for me, I'd like to interpret them myself.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Why insn't oils like Mobile, Ashland and Texico participating in the F-WC rating process?

They will. They already participate in the NMMA's TC-W3 certification program.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: If you think I'm going to put Neptuna oil in my 4 stoke OB instead of Mobile One...your crazy !

Mobil 1 is a great oil. But ask yourself your own question...What's in it that makes it better for your outboard than a FC-W oil?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The NMMA is not like consumer reports where the primary function is to test and provide results the consumers.

Consumer Reports doesn't develop industry standards, work with all faucets of the industry, and certify products using approved methods.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Quite the contrary, NMMA's priciple existence to service to the OB Manufacturer.

Been through this with you already and I won't list everything they do. But they do more than service the OB manufacturers. Maybe you should read some of the material they publish for consumers? Regardless, OB manufacturers would have no way to specify specific oil standards for their engines without them.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: We have a rating system based on performance that test all oils.....API.

The API rating system does not test and certify marine oils. You are implying automotive oils and marine oils should be treated as one in the same.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: As long as the NMMA has their way you will never see full discloure of test results and oil contents.

And the same should be said for your API. It's not the NMMA or the API that withholds an oil's contents or test data. It is the oil maker. No oil maker would enter into a voluntary certification program knowing that the formulations that their business is built on were going to be divulged.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: I still have not heard anyone speak about why Yamalube is more than double the price of other quality oils. How do they justify that ?

Because they can. People buy it. It performs very well. It carries the "Yamaha" name. Maybe it uses expensive base stocks, or expensive additives. Maybe their bottling or distributing contract is expensive. Maybe their workforce makes double that of other oil marketers. The nice thing is, you don't have to buy it Kanadakid.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The fees for NMMA F-WC approval are quite substancial.

So what did the NMMA tell you they were (you originally said they were a million dollars)?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Doc you do sound a little like a mouthpiece for the NMMA and can't belive that you don't see the relationship between overpriced oils (that are really no better than many of the competiton and in some cases not as good).....made by the NMMA outboard manufactueres and F-WC rated.

First you need to show how these oils are "no better" than other oils. Because I can show FC-W oils meet more stringent standards, additional testing, and pass actual outboard endurance tests compared to "other oils". I have also seen FC-W rated oils cheaper than "other oils", including your Mobil 1.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: This gives the OB manufacturer more leverage in saying...you have to use our oil. If you don't it better be F-WC rated which will be just as near the cost due to the high annual fees.

So don't buy their outboards. Don't buy their oil. Outboard makers have every right to specify an oil for the engine they design and warranty. In fact it is the engine makers who require the standards to begin with. You keep relating the cost of an FC-W oil to the NMMA program fees. Yet you haven't told us what it costs to get an oil FC-W certified. And you haven't told us what might be in the oil that makes it more expensive, or the expense it took to formulate the oil. What about the high cost of the outboard itself?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: I'm for testing all oils and full disclosure of the test results the oil ingredients. Then and only then will you be providing true consumer help and service. That would truly put and end the guessing and the "you'll loose your warrenty " fear tactics.

If I gave you three oils along with their respective contents and formulas, what would you do with it? How would it help you? How would you determine which one met the requirements of your $15,000 outboard? And what about John Doe who knows nothing about oils?

Kanadakid · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

I still have not heard anyone speak about why Yamalube is more than double the price of other quality oils. How do they justify that ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because they can. People buy it. It performs very well. It carries the "Yamaha" name. Maybe it uses expensive base stocks, or expensive additives. Maybe their bottling or distributing contract is expensive. Maybe their workforce makes double that of other oil marketers. The nice thing is, you don't have to buy it Kanadakid Maybe this, maybe that, there is a lot you are not saying. The answer is there is no sustanchial difference or special secrets or formulas. Full disclousre of TEST RESULTS and formulations would end all of the maybes. Because they can. ???? A great answer for why the overcharge for their oils. They can becasue they have their self serving organization set up a bogus test and charge an arm and a leg for them to put that little sticker on the bottle ....then use fear against the owner that he is gurting his warrenty. That's how the get away with overcharging for their oils, and any boat owner that has paid through the nose for it knows what I'm talking about. The oil manufacturer that I spoke with said that the NMMA fees were substancial. I said up to 1 million he said "it could be that high". The only reason that a copnany should be able to charge extra for their oil is there is PUBLISHED test data (like the mediacal community) to show superior perfpormance. Not some back door closed club testing without published results. Their is no...zero disclousure from the NMMA or the oil companies. Because they can is not the right answer doc. Kid

TOHATSU GURU · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Impasse...

seahorse5 · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

The main reason you will not find many of the "major oil producers" not making an NMMA FC-W certified oil is because of the low sales volume. Don't forget that 4-stroke outboards measure in the thousands, while cars and trucks are measured in the tens of millions. API testing does not include rust resistance or fuel dilution problem. So why would an oil company add addtitional additives making their oil more expensive, when it would only benefit less than 0.001% of total sales? Oil companies DO pay API and other testing organizations to certify their oil. Like NMMA, the organizations only require a pass or fail result, not how one or another performed against each other. Like was mentioned earlier, isn't it nice we have a CHOICE in what we use ?

TheOilDoc · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The answer is there is no sustanchial difference or special secrets or formulas.

Your answer implies that any oil can meet FC-W? The difference is FC-W oils must undergo unique marine testing, using standards established by the NMMA. "Other oils" do not. And although FC-W oils might not have special secrets, they will contain a formulation of additives required to pass the FC-W requirements (fuel dilution, salt-fog, outboard endurance, etc.)

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Full disclousre of TEST RESULTS and formulations would end all of the maybes.

Wouldn't those "TEST RESULTS and formulations" need to be certified? Or would we just take the oil manufacturer's word? Who's going to do that? Who's going to pay for it? Furthermore, how would the "test results" be published? In terms of engine part wear? In terms of oil analysis? in terms of Pass/Fail? What standards of testing would be used? How would we test the formulations? What methods would we use to do that? Who would interpret the data? How would we determine what formulations were best? How would oil makers protect their product? You see, it would only add further confusion, because most outboard operators are not oil scientists. People just want confidence that the oil they buy works. They leave this up to the engine maker's specs and the oil certification process that proves the oil meets those specs.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Because they can. ???? A great answer for why the overcharge for their oils.

Free enterprise. If you don't like it, then buy another oil. If you don't like FC-W, then don't buy an oil with their certification. How can you expect people to be smart enough to buy oils based on test results and formulations, but not smart enough to make a choice about paying for something that's "overcharged"? Isn't everything we buy "overcharged"? Why is your Mobil 1 so much more expensive than "other oils"? Heck a new outboard can cost more than an entire car. It costs my family $60 to go to the movies, yet $3.99 to watch the same movie from Blockbuster.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: They can becasue they have their self serving organization set up a bogus test and charge an arm and a leg for them to put that little sticker on the bottle

What is bogus about the FC-W tests? What tests and standards do you suggest? And how do you suggest those tests are paid for? How do you suggest we notify buyers that the oil passed the test without stickers on the bottle?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: ....then use fear against the owner that he is gurting his warrenty.

Are you suggesting an owner should be able to use any oil he wants, and make warranty claims if that oil causes failure? Are you saying the folks who design the engine, and pay for warranty work, shouldn't require an oil specification? So is it ok to run a TC air-cooled oil in a $15,000 outboard that requires FC-W?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: That's how the get away with overcharging for their oils, and any boat owner that has paid through the nose for it knows what I'm talking about.

No outboard maker requires that you use their oil (laws don't allow that). They simply list an oil specification. You don't have to buy Yamaha's FC-W 10W-30. You can meet their spec by buying a cheaper brand FC-W 10W-30 oil. Again, they get what they charge for oil because they can...people buy it.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The oil manufacturer that I spoke with said that the NMMA fees were substancial. I said up to 1 million he said "it could be that high".

Again, what oil manufacturer was that? And again, how much does it really cost to certify an oil with the NMMA?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The only reason that a copnany should be able to charge extra for their oil is there is PUBLISHED test data (like the mediacal community) to show superior perfpormance.

Sounds like you want to regulate private oil companies, doing away with free enterprise. BTW, who's going to test the oils, certify the results, publish the data, and tell consumers what the data means? Who's going to pay for it?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Not some back door closed club testing without published results.

Voluntary, non-profit, using accredited certified labs, industry established testing using ASTM and SAE standards, etc. And again, the NMMA does publish the pass/fail results. The oils that pass their tests (the test procedures and standards are available to you) are approved and published on their web site. Those that do not pass are not given certification. But you are certainly welcome to voice your opinion.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Their is no...zero disclousure from the NMMA or the oil companies.

Do you have a copy of your tax returns to show us yet? How about that Coke formula?

Kanadakid, I think you need to be honest and answer these questions before we can move on.

Kanadakid · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Oil The weaknesses of your arguments is now being exposed for what they are. Your answers are vague at best and tries to use diversion to unrealted topic in an effort to keep you for answering some fundamental questions. Your ansers to providing consumers with valuable information whith what oil the use in their outboard is based on Voo Doo our little club testing. Or it is labled by you as over regulated. The difference is FC-W oils must undergo unique marine testing, using standards established by the NMMA. "Other oils" do not. And although FC-W oils might not have special secrets, they will contain a formulation of additives required to pass the FC-W requirements (fuel dilution, salt-fog, outboard endurance, etc.) Most of all of the quality oils .....quality...already pass the test without any modification. Oil Mfg told me that. Wouldn't those "TEST RESULTS and formulations" need to be certified? Or would we just take the oil manufacturer's word? Who's going to do that? Who's going to pay for it? Really, who certifies the NMMA test results. I think I have been clear here but let me write it again. Independent labs....thus the term independent............unbiased towards anyone. Oil, I am confident in my position on this issue because in general it is backed up and supported based on my conversation with an oil mfg. The fact that your supporting a flawed process yet call youeself the oil Doc concerns me. Free enterprise. If you don't like it, then buy another oil. If you don't like FC-W, then don't buy an oil with their certification. How can you expect people to be smart enough to buy oils based on test results and formulations, but not smart enough to make a choice about paying for something that's "overcharged"? Your drifting, chaging the subjuct to take the focus off of a huge weak point of the Marine Manufacturese oils and the price they charge. Almost everyone on here knows that oils from the engine manufacteres charge double of what oil mFgs charge. The point of full disclusure which you, engine mfgs, and NMMA doesn't want is that once you see the ingredients and the quanties there is little is any differences. At they point they can no longer JUSTIFY chargeing us extra. Let me put this inrerms of how you might better understand this since you like to use confuse the issue by realting this topic to other industries which are not realtive. Let's use the movies ( which you used in your most recent reply) at $60.00 for a family. But suppose the movie at the other end of town charges $120.00. Whouldn't you like an EXPLANATION of why they are twice the prices. Are you suggesting an owner should be able to use any oil he wants, and make warranty claims if that oil causes failure? More confusion in an effort to elude the point. Never said use any oil you want. There are already standards set ...API based on lubrication and wear indication tests. Suuported by the Government. Ohh my how did we ever live in a world without the NMMA W=Fc rated oils...........how did we survive that. Just curious...how many guys on here destroyed their 4 stroke engines by using improper oil ? No outboard maker requires that you use their oil (laws don't allow that). They simply list an oil specification. Precisely, thus the reason the Engine MFGs had to have their orgaization (NMMA) set up a W-FC standard so they could force consumers at laest to use that rated oil. Which is very limited in the oils folks can select. Glad to see your admitting the flaws in the system. And because of the high fees associated with the F-WC rating on the bottle, this self perpetuates their NMMA organization. Sounds like you want to regulate private oil companies, doing away with free enterprise. Again inaccurately rephrasing my position. Over regulate no. Publish results so they can be scutinized and audited for accuracy yes. Our medical community can not make medical claims without publishing their results, findings and testing procedures. Otherwise the claims and finding are not credible. You have yet to tell us what exactly is in Yamalube, Amsoil or Mobile one. What lab is that.. again... that you work for ? I missed that one. Do they do work for the NMMA ? Voluntary, non-profit, using accredited certified labs, industry established testing using ASTM and SAE standards That does not include most of the quality oil products on the market. But does include all of your NMMA club members .....and because of that they charge more for their oils....even thought they may not offer any additional protection for competing oils. That is just great for consumers ! Do you have a copy of your tax returns to show us yet? How about that Coke formula? This is another example of using non issues to try and put this matter in another light. What does my tax return have ot do with any of this. Coke formula.....yes you do now get the point don't you. Glad you finally admitted it without knowing that you were. I think they call it a Fruedian slip. Exactly my point, the Engine manufactuere keep their oils properties and formulas a secret. They don't want us to know that , do they oil doc. That way without full disclosure thier organization can set up this test that only those in the club or those will will give them a pile of money can sell oil. Then because no one can make a comparison and use the lack of information to infer better performance that non club oils. But Coke isn't making any special claims other than it tastes different so its really sort of not similar. Honesty, I have been totally honest. I took the time to call an industry insider. I told them I wanted the staright truth about this topic. Any of you guys on here can call any of the major lubrication companies. Just ask them to be honest. I don't think any of them want to be blackballed by the NMMA or else they won't be able to sell their oil. I don't blame them. Keep in minfd that if they did pass the test, as the one I spoke with did, they have invested a lot of money paying for the right to put F-WC rating on their bottle. This is not as simple as the oil Doc has made it out, i have explained in the above. Make the call boys.....you find that many of the non F-Wc oils are just as good as what you are being told by those who do not want full disclosure. The information was provied truthfully in everything wrote. You however OIL Doc have not told us what lab you work for and if they test for the NMMA. Based on the position you have taken vs. what I have been told by a relaibale source tells me who you are. Smoke , mirrors , dancing around questions, offering suggestions that are not part of the topic or not really similar. My position guys is simple. Published testing results by indepandent labs and full disclosure of what is in the oil you buy. But we are to stupid to have this info. By the way would you do us all a huge favor, tell us what oils failed the F-WC rating ? Kid

TOHATSU GURU · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

You can lead a horse to water...But, sometimes it just wants that special Kool Aid. Kanadakid. You have invested a lot of research, time and passion into your argument...Unfortunately, your just wrong in the positions you have taken. I don't think you can accept why your wrong...Because you have been informed over and over why you are. But, I will answer your last question because I do know the answer. None. No oil manufacturer had an oil in production prior to the FC-W standard being developed that would pass the new standard. All manufacturers that have adapted and produced that oil did so as a result of the new standard. So, some manufacturers have stepped up to the plate and adapted, some have not. It's already been pointed out by Seahorse that it's about potential return on investment as to why some oil brands(obviously your favorite brand didn't think it was cost effective to change)have not produced FC-W oil. In the end, people vote with their pocket book as to what they will accept from manufacturers. Some people will continue to use the oil that has served them well in the past, probably without a failure. But arguing that the older formula is as good as the new one is folly. We have case after case of perfectly good oil that we can no longer use, in good conscience, for outboards. If we thought their was no difference we would use it. On the plus side, no one here is going to have to buy oil for their cars for a long time

JRJ · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Thanks to all for the information. I was led to water and had a drink

Kanadakid · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

That is wondefully stated but totally untrue. No oil manufacturer had an oil in production prior to the FC-W standard being developed that would pass the new standard Amsoil syntetic passed the test without any modifications. They told me that. Buy the way are the standards different for Salt water vs fresh water outboards? Certainly completely different applications of the same engine. Still no one has shown how any of the oils differ. Because they can not. I'll dirnk whatever your drinking...it will make me think less and go with the crowd. Kid

Kanadakid · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

On the otherhand Elvin my freind you are a distributor who sell outboards and the high priced dealer oils that accompany them. So i completely understand why you are in the camp you are in. Kid

JRJ · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Gee, I thought you were ahead of me by at least 3

I don't use factory oil because it costs more; and I don't care why. I have never blown an engine or had a warranty problem of any kind because I didn't use "their" stuff.

LubeDude · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by JRJ: Gee, I thought you were ahead of me by at least 3 I don't use factory oil because it costs more; and I don't care why. I have never blown an engine or had a warranty problem of any kind because I didn't use "their" stuff.

No, and you wont either unless you completley go against there required weight. The way TOD supports the NMMA, It may be that he worked for them, other things he has said in the past gave me this thought a while back. Doesnt matter, I could care less. One of the good things I can say about TOD is that he holds his ground.

TheOilDoc · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by Kanadakid: what oil the use in their outboard is based on Voo Doo our little club testing.

Please explain yourself. You can find the requirements of the testing and approval system HERE, and HERE. So where's the "Voo Doo"? BTW, if the NMMA was a "club" it wouldn't be open to anyone and everyone for voluntary participation.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Most of all of the quality oils .....quality...already pass the test without any modification. Oil Mfg told me that.

So which ones meet FC-W and which ones don't? How do we know...call each oil manufacturer and take their word for it? No thanks. Really the only way for the consumer to know if the oil is up to the rigors of the FC-W rating is certification Since you like to use medical analogies, here's one...If a surgeon tells you he can do your surgery, even though he's not certified to do it, will you undergo the knife?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Really, who certifies the NMMA test results. I think I have been clear here but let me write it again. Independent labs....thus the term independent............unbiased towards anyone.

I might suggest you read how the approval system works HERE. Independent labs do the testing. In fact the choice of the lab is made by the sponsor, not NMMA. All the NMMA asks is that the lab is approved by the OCC and the data is provided to the OTDA. The NMMA also relies on the OSS and O&H to make sure the tests are done correctly. It's all explained very openly by them. BTW, test oils are assigned a numerical designation. Manufacturers and brand names are excluded for testing. I would appreciate it if you would explain exactly how the NMMA practices bias.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: I am confident in my position on this issue because in general it is backed up and supported based on my conversation with an oil mfg.

So I take it the oil manufacturer you're talking to does not support the TC, TC-W3, API SAE, or FC-W certification programs either (they all operate similarly). Probably Amsoil.

Origianlly posted by Kanadakid: The fact that your supporting a flawed process yet call youeself the oil Doc concerns me.

The NMMA's TC-W3 works. The API's SAE "Starburst" process works. They have not been shown to be flawed processes. The NMMA's FC-W process operates the same way and is no different. BTW, my handle here is "TheOilDoc" because I spent the majority of my life in the oil industry, testing outboard oils for an accredited organization. I offer my hard-earned knowledge and education here free, in hopes that members will benefit. I have no agenda, but I would like to make a difference to those like yourself who unfortunately are very misinformed (nothing personal).

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Your drifting, chaging the subjuct to take the focus off of a huge weak point of the Marine Manufacturese oils and the price they charge. Almost everyone on here knows that oils from the engine manufacteres charge double of what oil mFgs charge.

So what? What product is any different? Do you have to buy it? No! Diesel oils have always been more expensive than gasoline oils. Michlen tires have always been more expensive than Cooper's. Genuine Ford and GM parts have always been more expensive than aftermarket. Baskin Robins 31 has always charged 3-times more for a double scoop than Joe Bob's corner store. Supreme gasoline has always been more expensive than regular.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The point of full disclusure which you, engine mfgs, and NMMA doesn't want is that once you see the ingredients and the quanties there is little is any differences.

Even as an oil expert I can tell you that "full disclosure" isn't going to mean much to me. I want to know if the oil passed the FC-W tests. I don't care what's in the oil that does that. Ingredients and their quantities and formulas aren't going to mean a thing to Joe Bob either. He'd need a degree in petroleum engineering just to interpret them. But I would be interested in how you are going to determine what oil is best by the formula. Because while some formulas appear very hardy, they can perform like junk when tested in an outboard.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Let's use the movies ( which you used in your most recent reply) at $60.00 for a family. But suppose the movie at the other end of town charges $120.00. Whouldn't you like an EXPLANATION of why they are twice the prices.

No. If they both offered the same service I would simply go to the cheaper movie house. The choice is mine. What the expensive movie house charges is their problem. However, if the expensive movie house offered something above and beyond, or could certify that I would have a better time watching their movie, then I may pay the extra.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: There are already standards set ...API based on lubrication and wear indication tests.

The API operates just like the NMMA. It is a voluntary, non-profit certification program involving all members of the industry from oil makers to auto makers. The NMMA and the marine engine industry recognized that the API did not have any marine outboard engine oil standards, and that marine engines differ from automotive engines. Thus their TC-W3 and FC-W programs.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Suuported by the Government.

Totally wrong.

I suggest you go HERE and educate yourself on who supports the API.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Ohh my how did we ever live in a world without the NMMA W=Fc rated oils...........how did we survive that.

Are you saying we should run castor oil in our modern outboards? High quality oils, and higher oil standards, are one of the reasons why newer outboards perform and last as well as they do. The engine makers require them. Consumers want them. The NMMA makes sure the oil companies supply them consistently and with confidence for the consumer.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Precisely, thus the reason the Engine MFGs had to have their orgaization (NMMA) set up a W-FC standard so they could force consumers at laest to use that rated oil.

You've failed to recognize what that standard means. You're saying the FC-W's unique salt-fog test and outboard endurance test, the fuel dilution and more strict testing parameters aren't for achieving a better oil for a more demanding outboard, but for forcing consumers to buy it?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: And because of the high fees associated with the F-WC rating on the bottle

Are those fees higher than an API or NMMA TC-W3 certification fee?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Publish results so they can be scutinized and audited for accuracy yes.

By who? You and that guy from the oil company you talked to on the phone? And who's going to pay for it? Who's going to do the standardized testing?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Our medical community can not make medical claims without publishing their results, findings and testing procedures.

Again, the NMMA does publish the pass/fail results. The certified oils are listed. The testing procedures can be found HERE, and with the ASTM. BTW, are these medical professionals certified? Did they pay for that certification/education? Do they pay membership fees? Are the charges for their services reasonable?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: You have yet to tell us what exactly is in Yamalube, Amsoil or Mobile one.

Would it matter? Because even an oil expert like myself can't determine how well an oil performs just by its formulation and ingredients. That's why we do performance tests and evaluate actual engine wear. Are you going to do that? What are your determining factors for a "best" formulation, and how did you arrive at that? Regardless, what part of proprietary don't you understand? Why would oil companies want to pull their pants down and divulge their formulas and ingredients?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: What does my tax return have ot do with any of this.

It is an analogy. You expect these private enterprised oil makers to divulge their most kept secrets to the world. That would be no different than asking you to divulge some of your most kept secrets to the world. You know...pull your pants down. I won't go on adressing the rest of Kanadakid's comments. As I just realized he's been talking to Amsoil on the phone. That explains the resentment toward oil certification and the flow of misinformation. I respect everyone's opinion, including Kanadakid (although I wish he would've talked with the NMMA (non-profit) rather than Amsoil (profit). I think most everyone understands the benefits to oil certifications and the added benefits to using a FC-W certified oil in marine engines. I'm thankful for programs like API's SAE, the NMMA's TC-W3, FC-W and so on. Without them there is no telling what we would be putting into our engines.

TheOilDoc · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by Bassin' Fever: The way TOD supports the NMMA, It may be that he worked for them, other things he has said in the past gave me this thought a while back.

No affiliation whatsoever. I understand how the NMMA's oil certification program works. I believe in its purpose. I believe it benefits the consumer, and that better oils and engines have resulted because of them. It's not that I support the NMMA as much as that I don't support the views of misinformed members like Kanadakid.

LubeDude · Jan 7, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

To TheOilDoc. Even though I admit to being disrespectful in the past to you, there isnt any attempt in this post. OK, Im not sure how to say this in a way that you may understand, I havnt been able to do it in the past, but here goes. In the past, I have ask you to define some things in a certain way just as KanadaKid has done without success. All the Kid wants is an Idea as to what the compounds are that may be added into oils that would make them actually pass the FC-W test if they wouldnt before. Its not devulging anything, as most oils have the same additives, just different quantities or maybe a higher priced one. So, come on, give him what he wants. I know you have the answer. Just tell us what compounds are used to do certain things for the FC-W certification.

what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

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