what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

TheOilDoc · Jan 4, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by LubeDude: Picky, picky, picky,! 

Originally posted by LubeDude: You being God, and me just a pee-on!

Originally posted by LubeDude: Your fans are waiting.

Oh, I understand exactly what you're saying.

LubeDude · Jan 4, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by TheOilDoc: I understand exactly what you're saying.

Arnt we both saying the same thing only different???

Kanadakid · Jan 4, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Doc, Thanks for taking your time to explain some of this. And it all sounds so sweet, almost a musical. But I still have many issues. Here they come: The NMMA is not and indpendent lab and or unbiased organization. Nor are they there for the service of the consumer. They are an organization serving Engine and Boat MFG. All the engine and boat MFGs belong to the organization. The organization belongs to them. The purpose of the NMMA, and I quote them verbatim: Our Mission... NMMA is dedicated to creating, promoting and protecting an environment where members can achieve financial success through excellence in manufacturing, in selling, and in servicing their customers. Selling oil that is only specified by NMMA Or approved. Profits. Does the NMMA publish their test results on the oils tested ? No ? Do they test all oils ? No. Which ones get tested ? The ones who pay them money. In the medical community this would be treated as a Dr Suess book. F-WC is a trademark. The oil manufactures (Amsoil) must pay for the right to put F-WC on the their lable/ bottle. It is a PROFIT CENTER. It is designed to make money. Here it is folks, the big F-WC test: Industry leaders in lubrication developed testing criteria for this marine four-stroke oil. These include bench tests for viscosity, corrosion, filter plugging, foaming and aeration. In addition, the oil must successfully pass a 100-hour general performance engine test. Very vague at best. Mobile one would never pass these tests ! Again, I open this up to the Straight shooting guys from Amsoil. What chages were made to your already excellent oil in order to meet the incredible demands and rigorous testing of the NMMA F-WC testing. My bet is not a thing. But only to pay the NMMA fee so you can put their registed trademark on your oil can. If the NMMA want to provide as you say consumer confidence why not test all oils and ley us know which ones meet the criteria. No fees to the oil mfg to get the rubber stamp approval. Not the case, pay the trademark fees and then you can sell your oil. This is a legal, scam. No. Please show me any data that demonstrated Mobile One failed the NMMA F-WC tests. One last question, what lab sis you work for ? And the truth will set you free !!!! Kid

JRJ · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by Jan Z: For my 2005 4s 40 hp Yamaha motor the owners manual says Quote "10-30 or 10-40 type SAE, Oil grade API SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ."

Seems simple to me also Jan Z

LubeDude · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Doc, F-WC is a trademark. The oil manufactures (Amsoil) must pay for the right to put F-WC on the their lable/ bottle. It is a PROFIT CENTER. It is designed to make money.

I understand that this was directed at TOD, but Im not really answering your question to him.

You pretty much have it figured out!

Like I said before, I seriously doubt that any of the oil manufactures did anything special to pass this test. Someone is making money on this, plain and simple. Dont get me wrong, standards are good. I agree with TOD in that its the performance of the oil, not particularly whats in it that counts.

Kanadakid · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Hare, Thanks for the info on the article. Don't you find it interesting: Yamalube 4 stroke turned out to have poor corrosion protection. Yet......Yet they are what ? F-WCeeeee approoooooval. Sounds so nice............. Its not enough to make a great oil that really protects your engine. Amsoil, M 1 have to pay these loosers (which jacks up the price of a quart for us) $$$$. Then uses fear tactics with consumers just so they can make money selling oil that is no better in quality or performance. NMMA needs a kick in jewels from the Feds. If they don't publish it, they can't prove it. If they can't prove it, they can't hold your warrenty ransome. And the truth has set us Free. Kid

Kanadakid · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Spoke with a lube mfg today. Here is the straight truth. Their normal synthetic oil would and does pass the F-WC rating without any changes or adjustments to the product itself. The fee to NMMA can be up to 1 millon $$$$. They did add additional corrosion inhibitors (Zink & Magnesium) to the oil for more performance in that area. In his opinon any quality oil or synthetic would pass the NMMA test. What does the NMMA approval get you......nothing but more expensive oil. Use the manaufactuieres oil or a decent synthetic and you will be fine. Kid

TheOilDoc · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Origianlly posted by Kanadakid: The NMMA is not and indpendent lab and or unbiased organization.

The NMMA is a non-profit, voluntary program. Manufacturers are not forced to become members, and consumers are not forced to buy their certified products. The NMMA does use independent laboratories and third-party checks and balances. Their organization is not biased. The NMMA is a result of unified participation by all types of entities, from the U.S. Coast Guard, SAE, ISO, ICOMIA, to the API, Dept. of Transporatation, and the National Fire Protection Association to name a few.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Nor are they there for the service of the consumer. They are an organization serving Engine and Boat MFG.

The consumer is the primary beneficiary. This is true because NMMA demands a higher level of manufacturing excellence, and uses industry standards, testing, certification, and monitoring for quality assurance. Whether it be proper boat wiring, avoiding carbon monoxide poisoning on a house boat, proper trailer brakes, fuel/fire prevention, or using an oil up for salt water demands, the NMMA certification means you're getting it. HERE are some of their standards. Standards, regulations, compliance, and certification are not things that manufacturers enjoy. However, manufacturers know that by voluntarily becoming a member of the NMMA, utilizing their standards and certifications, and taking advantage of their programs, their product will be a better, safer one that consumers will demand. Yes, that means better sales for them, and a better product for the consumer. It's a win-win. BTW, if you read the Mission Statement you posted, you'll find the words, "servicing their customers" right in it.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: All the engine and boat MFGs belong to the organization.

No, only those that voluntarily join and wish to be subject to the NMMA guidlines and standards. For example, there is a local small craft boat builder here who's a non-NMMA member. He has no one to answer to except the unsuspecting customer. I've seen him use speaker wire for wiring the main bus. His boats have no load capacity or HP plates. No floatation. I've even seen him use non-tempered glass. If he made oil instead of boats, there is no telling what the customer would be getting. Regardless, there are more than boat and outboard manufacturers who belong to the NMMA.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The purpose of the NMMA, and I quote them verbatim:

You failed to quote some of the reasons for NMMA certification. And I quote a few verbatim: "Our Mission Helping marine manufacturers succeed in providing safer products for the the boating industry. Services The Engineering Standards Department of NMMA is responsible for providing technical support to NMMA members, staff and consumers."

Origianlly posted by Kanadakid: Selling oil that is only specified by NMMA Or approved. Profits.

It's no different that the NMMA's TC-W3 program or the API's SAE oil program. Both are excellent programs with excellent results. So how do you suggest we establish consumer confidence when purchasing oil for our marine outboards? Or would you prefer not to use a certified oil, taking only the word of the oil manufacturer that their oil is what your engine needs? Again, NMMA is a voluntary, non-profit organization. If oil manufacturers elect to provide oils that meet the requirements of the NMMA, and consumers buy them, it is a win-win.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Does the NMMA publish their test results on the oils tested ? No ? Do they test all oils ? No.

Test results can not be used, divulged, or discussed by the NMMA without the oil manufacturer's permission, as explained in FC-W's approval system. This is the oil maker's proprietary information. The NMMA clearly publishes a list of oils that passed their tests. Remember, NMMA oil certification is based on pass/fail performance testing procedures using ASTM and NMMA standards. It is not based on oil contents, virgin oil samples, or used oil samples. The oil either meets FC-W or it doesn't. It is NMMA's goal to test the performance of each and every candidate oil. Tests are conducted in their laboratories that are OCC approved, and those laboratories must supply test data to NMMA's OTDA for approval.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Which ones get tested ? The ones who pay them money.

The NMMA might be non-profit, but they are not a charity. With any membership and certification process comes a small fee. As with NMMA's TC-W3 certification and API's Starburst certification, the benefits obviously outweigh the minor costs. Not only do sales increase as a result of consumer confidence in the product, but membership allows the oil maker to become involved in industry issues with industry leaders, participate in programs, seminars, and so on. Again, a win-win. If the program was not worthy, oil makers wouldn't be using it, and consumers wouldn't be buying the product.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: In the medical community this would be treated as a Dr Suess book.

Are you saying you'd rather go to a Doctor who is not certified to practice, has no diploma, is not a member of any medical organization, and is not privy to medical field involvement, information, or programs?

Origainally posted by Kanadakid: F-WC is a trademark.

A trademark for a certification program. It does not symbolize a product name. It symbolizes a level of industry standard. Without the trademark, any oil company could make any claim or use the FC-W.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The oil manufactures (Amsoil) must pay for the right to put F-WC on the their lable/ bottle. It is a PROFIT CENTER. It is designed to make money.

Oil manufacturers don't have to pay for anything if they don't want. The program is strictly voluntary. And again, the FC-W program is non-profit.

Origianlly posted by Kanadakid: Here it is folks, the big F-WC test: These include bench tests for viscosity, corrosion, filter plugging, foaming and aeration. In addition, the oil must successfully pass a 100-hour general performance engine test.

I suggest you examine the FC-W testing a little closer. I won't go through it all here, but if you compare FC-W standards to API standards you will see some differences. Not only are some of the parameters more strict, but there are tests unique to outboard engines and marine environments. Testing is done in actual outboard engines (not automotive engines), under actual marine simulation (not automotive simulation). Again, some automotive oils may meet those standards. But that will be out of coincidence, not design.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Very vague at best.

The FC-W standards and test procedures, which include many ASTM standards of testing, are spelled out in every detail and very clearly by the NMMA.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Mobile one would never pass these tests !

Mobil 1 is a great oil. But just because it's Mobil 1 doesn't mean its the best for your outboard. After all, we really have no way of knowing. However, if it carried the FC-W certification we would know for sure it met the demanding requirements of the marine environment.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: If the NMMA want to provide as you say consumer confidence why not test all oils and ley us know which ones meet the criteria. No fees to the oil mfg to get the rubber stamp approval.

It costs money to run an extensive certification program. BTW, the NMMA does tell you what oils meet the criteria. But maybe we should throw oil certification programs out the window. Then oil makers could sell you anything they wanted, and you wouldn't have any idea what it would do in your outboard. Engine makers could keep developing these advanced engines without any regard for lubrication needs. Their oil recommendations could specify "any oil". And oil makers could interpret that to mean Mrs. Butterworth's pancake syrup.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Not the case, pay the trademark fees and then you can sell your oil. This is a legal, scam.

Voluntary. Oil makers don't have to certify FC-W. And consumers don't have to buy FC-W. And you don't get the NMMA's FC-W trademark by paying a fee, you get it by meeting their standards. BTW, do you think we'd have any scams if there were no oil certifications? Do you consider the TC-W3 and API ratings a scam too?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: One last question, what lab sis you work for ?

Sorry, but I don't wish to subject them or myself to the WWW., particularly due to one member's rage on this site.

TOHATSU GURU · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

After looking at all these posts I checked into the actual facts on the FC-W rating. FC-W has an entirely new formulation requirement. No manufactuer offered an oil that would pass the FC-W rating until they changed their additive package to meet the new requirements. The additional additives cost more, therefore the FC-W oil costs more. FC-W oil maintains it's viscosity when diluted with fuel and it also is designed to prevent water pooling at the bottom of the crankcase. Since it is a new rating, all previous year owner's manuals don't mention it, but everyone should switch over to it. It's a good thing

TheOilDoc · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The fee to NMMA can be up to 1 millon $$$$.

What oil maker told you that? Have you asked the NMMA what they charge for certification?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: In his opinon any quality oil or synthetic would pass the NMMA test.

How did these oils do in the two phases of the outboard endurance test? How did they do in the Salt-Fog test?

You just spent $35,000 for a new set of twin outboards that specify an FC-W oil. Are you going to rely on this guy's opinion and use "any quality oil or synthetic", or will you have more confidence in a FC-W labeled oil?

walleyehed · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Very well said, Doc....

Jan Z · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Ok, enough with the smoke and mirrors...One guy is zipping his fly up, the other has wet feet and someone else is yelling Rain! Let's get to the bottom line. If I were to go to the local auto parts store for oil for a new four stroke Yamaha what oil should I get Dino or synthetic? I know about the recomended 10-30/10-40 so that's not an issue. The issue is "Marine oil" at the boat shop or high quality SAE grade automotive oil from an auto parts store.

TOHATSU GURU · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Any FC-W oil that is the correct weight.

PAkev · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

For what it's worth, I was at the New York International Boat show two days ago and asked the Yamaha folks about their position on synthetics. This is what I was told: Yamaha has not yet tested their 4 stoke technology with synthetic lubricants and therefore is the principal reason they do not advocate synthetics in their motors. As far as the warranty issues, I believe a new motor used for an avg 100/hr season will indicate most inherent problems with a motor that may need attention. From there on, it is good maintenance that makes the motor last. Therefore, a 3-5 yr warranty offered by most manufacturers is merely a value added feature to justify the buyers investment. I am inclined to tip the balance in favor of synthetics since I also have experience using it in my diesel truck. I tow nearly every weekend and I am confident I can go out to check the oil and it will look and smell clean. I've also seen an improvement in economy since using synthetic motor oil. As per the conetext of the previous post: If you are a patient person and understand the chemistry language of lubricants you can do a little testing on your own and have an oil analysis done. You can run your motor on dino oil for x amount of hours, drain it and then run your motor on synthetic oil for the same x amount of hours and conditions. Then go with what will make you sleep better at night. For a marginal fee, Amsoil will do an oil analysis.

LubeDude · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

TOD dosent think that an oil analysis is a good way of telling if an oil is doing its job, I on the other hand think it is an excellent way of telling. Different metals tell whats wearing, and the amount tells if there is wear. It would have to be an exact test hour for hour and as near the same usage as you could get. Also the TBN before and after is a great thing also. They also give the percent of fuel delution and moisture. Im sure TOD can clarify his dislike of UOAs.

LubeDude · Jan 5, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by INTERNETOUTBOARDS: Any FC-W oil that is the correct weight.

Great answer. For sure if the engine is still under warranty. Myself, I personally would use whatever I wanted, But that may actually include an oil with the FC-W rating, or maybe not. But I wouldnt advise anyone else to do the same. Synthetics are not always the answer, and because you change the oil so frequently because of fuel delution on an outboard (usually), It may not be very cost effective. The engine will outlast you and several others with out it.

Kanadakid · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Gents, I spent over an hour responding to the docs comment supporting the F-WC profit driven rating system. I was using my touch mouse, all of the sudden it switched screens and I lost everything I had written. I don't have the energy to re write all that I had afain, and you guys probably don't have the energy to read it all anyway. The bottom line of the book I wrote to the doc was, what good is it to consumers to eliminate many quality lubricating oils from purchase because the did not pay the fee to the NMMA. The result is a limited number of oils offered at higher prices to marine engine consumers. Some of those oils offered based on others tests, do not match the protection given by some of the oild eliminated. Furthermore, what additional or different compnents warrents the exteremly high prices charged by the Yamalubes and mercury oils of the world. Here I go.....I'd better end here. Kid

Kanadakid · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Kevin, Yamaha has not yet tested their 4 stoke technology with synthetic lubricants and therefore is the principal reason they do not advocate synthetics in their motors. That has to be a lie, think about it. how could Yamaha offer Yamalube saying it was the best protection for your engine without testing it agaist Syntetics ? As a matter of fact isn't yamalube a blend of syntetics. How do they no wheather the blend works better than a pure synthetic without testing it ? They offer a blend becsue they make better profits using dino base added with some additional protection of syntetics. They absolutly know the benefits and results of syntetics. But the minute they tell you that they know that you......will stop buying their very high mark-up oils and opt for better protection buying someone elses oil. Kev.....did you really buy that explanation ? Kid

TheOilDoc · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Kanadakid, NMMA's FC-W certification is no different that NMMA's TC-W3 certification, the TC certification, or the API's SAE "Starburst" certification. One is for four-cycle water cooled marine engines, one is for two-cycle water cooled marine engines, one is for two-cycle air cooled engines, and one is for automotive engines. It appears you think the certification process is nothing more than a profit making joke. And if oils are certifed, it shouldn't cost anything. Or at best you're saying that four-cycle water cooled marine engine applications should be included with automotive applications. So the questions to you are; If an oil is not certified, how do you know what you're getting? Is it Mrs. Butterworth's, or is it in fact an oil formulated for your outboard application? What standards would the oil industry follow? Or would each oil company set their own? Who develops those standards? Who sees to it that they are implemented? How would the engine manufacturers specify what their engines need? Who is going to pay for all this? And why should marine engines be treated like automotive engines? Would two-cycle air-cooled oils be used in automobiles?

Originally posted by Kanadakid: what good is it to consumers to eliminate many quality lubricating oils from purchase because the did not pay the fee to the NMMA.

No oils are eliminated from being purchased. And paying a certification fee does not certify the oil...only passing FC-W testing standards certify the oil. Consumers can purchase and use any oil for their outboard that they want. If you prefer a non-FC-W rated oil (one that hasn't been certified as passing the outboard endurance tests, salt-fog tests, or other more demanding tests), and prefer to go against what the engine maker recommends, then you have that option. If you want to use a FC-W oil recommended and certified for your engine and warranty, then you have that option.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: The result is a limited number of oils offered at higher prices to marine engine consumers.

No, the results are oils that meet new, and better marine outboard applications. Some of these oils are actually less expensive than some non-FC-W automotive oils. But really Kanadakid, it's no different than TC-W3, TC, or API diesel oils. Not all oils are offered for all applications at the cheapest price. Yamaha doesn't sell a CI-4 rated diesel oil, and even those oil makers that do don't usually sell it at the price of a cheap gasoline engine oil.

Originally posted by Kanadakid: Some of those oils offered based on others tests, do not match the protection given by some of the oild eliminated.

If those oils met NMMA's requirements and passed the FC-W testing, then they could certainly be certified as such. But until they are FC-W certified, using industry testing standards, these "other tests" don't mean much. Of course you always have the choice of using those oils.

Origainlly posted by Kanadakid: Furthermore, what additional or different compnents warrents the exteremly high prices charged by the Yamalubes and mercury oils of the world.

Remember, its not what's in the oil that gives it the FC-W rating, it's how it performs in FC-W testing. Again, there are probably an infinite number of formulations and components that an oil maker could use to pass FC-W, and an infinite number of formulations and components that would not pass FC-W. BTW, you don't have to buy Yamalube or Mercury oils to get the FC-W rating. And you don't have to guess at what Yamaha tested, why they use a syn blend, or speculate about how they profit. OEM oils have always been more expensive. But there are other non-Yamaha, non-OEM FC-W certified oils available. And some of these are cheaper than the Mobil 1 you mentioned. Kanadakid, what's nice about freedom is that you can use whatever oil you choose, FC-W or not.

TheOilDoc · Jan 6, 2006

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Origianlly posted by LubeDude: TOD dosent think that an oil analysis is a good way of telling if an oil is doing its job...Im sure TOD can clarify his dislike of UOAs.

That is a poor attempt at putting your words in my mouth. As I've told you over and over LubeDude, oils are not tested and certified by using UAO's. They are tested and certified by measuring actual engine wear (using standardized tests). The oil itself is not analyzed. Actual engine parts are. UOA's are used to determine maintenance schedules (particularly for extended drains), to monitor internal engine wear or wear rates, analyze filtration, as a diagnostic tool to protect against unnecessary engine damage, and to alert of any potential engine problems. The true performace of an oil can only be determined by actually measuring internal engine wear on things like bearings, cylinders, cams and crankshafts journals, piston rings, etc. This is why when testing outboard oils for certification, the engine must be torn down, measured, inspected, and rated for wear. Again, the oil is not analyzed. Yes, a UAO can tell you if the oil contains contaminates, wear metals, or out-of-spec physical properties. But those aren't necessarily indicators of poor oil. For example if your UAO showed results of high silicate levels, this could be an indication of anything from poor air filtration, to coolant in the oil, to nothing more than using a high silicate-containing oil. It doesn't mean the oil is of a lesser quality or doesn't meet the requirements of the engine. It generally means there is something wrong with the engine. If the UAO showed high levels of wear metals (iron, aluminum, etc.) this could indicate anything from new parts wearing, overheating and excessive expansion of parts, worn bushings or washers, or even major parts failing. It doesn't mean the oil is of poor quality. It generally means something is wrong with the engine. And if the UAO showed abnormal physical properties it could mean several things. For example high levels of fuel dilution doesn't necessarily mean the oil is inadeqate at suspending fuel particals, but rather that there could be a fuel combustion problem, a rich/lean intake problem, or a failed injector. Or if a low TBN is found it doesn't necessarily mean the oil has an inferior additive package. It could mean the oil was subject to overheating, it was operated beyond its servicability, or it was exposed to excessive combustion by-products. Additionally, analyzing a UOA to determine the quality of an oil would require a comparison against a virgin sample of that original oil (VOA). For example some oils are formulated with a lower TBN, but are able to sustain that TBN longer, over more demanding operating conditions than higher TBN oils. It's all in how the oil performs. How parts wear. Not what's in the oil. That's why the NMMA's FC-W certification uses actual outboard engine endurance tests, and actual outboard engine tear-downs measuring engine wear. If an oil contains Mrs. Butterworth's and passes the performance tests, then it will get certified. UOA's are excellent monitoring methods. But they don't tell you much about how good an oil is.

what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

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