Transom Materials?

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Hey just got a 1960 mfg with removable factory top. First off, I dont know what model it may be. I've torn out the wet sponge of a transom and I'm ready to rebuild. My question is: If I cant bear to use plywood (which I cannot) are there any other materials I can use that are bendable? My Transom has a radius to it. Ie: fiberglass or some completely water repellant substrate. Something I can do a lamination with or simply bend and sandwich in place?
 

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Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,928
Re: Transom Materials?

Welcome to iBoats!
Check out products like Seacast or Nidabond. Nidabond is the least expensive of the two. Both are GREAT products. You will have to create an Inner transom wall to be able to form the transom but that will NOT be much of a problem. Lots of threads on here to show you how.

Good Luck

I'm just sayin...:D
 

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

thanks Woodonglass. A big help
Any idea what model it may be? It's an MFG 1960, 17 foot with fiberglass convertible top. I've posted some pics after about an hour trying.
 

Isaacm1986

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
1,086
Re: Transom Materials?

I have used NIDABOND before, and It is AWESOME stuff. I am getting ready to use it again in about a week. I will be helping a friend pour his transom with it.

I know others rave about Seacast as well, but I have not used it. I can say from experience, the Nidabond stuff is worth it.
 

Bifflefan

Commander
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
2,933
Re: Transom Materials?

For the cost of the poor in's you can do it in ply and have gas and beer money left over.
What is your issue with plywood? It was in there for 50 years already, and is in every other boat made.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
941
Re: Transom Materials?

I agree. Use plywood and resin. The transom probably is out of shape and should be flat and not curved. Use PL premium to glue up the transom pieces and to glue it against the outer skin. Once it has fully cured then glass it in. It will outlast you.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,928
Re: Transom Materials?

1.) Is that a Tin or a Fiberglass boat?
2.) You do realize that a composite transom will cost a minimum of $400.00
3.) A Plywood/Resin transom will cost about $100.00. You can conform it to the curvature of the outerskin of your transom. It WILL last for 50+ years if done right.
4.) Here is a link to a site where a guy makes an inner skin and Pours a Seacast transom - http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=364284

Post a pic of the transom of your boat so we can see the curvature you are talking about.

I'm just sayin...:D
 

reelfishin

Captain
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
3,047
Re: Transom Materials?

I'm about to do an MFG transom here, I thought about the various poured transom solutions but couldn't justify the cost and added labor of having to build support for the transom panels.
Besides, the existing wood has lasted with probably no proper care for 45 years. If the job I do on the new transom lasts that long, I'll be far to old to care whether or not it lasted if I'm even still around then.

Some models had curved transoms, the Edinboro and Westfield models that I've seen have all been curved transoms. My Seaway, and all of the Niagara models I've had have been flat transoms. The Seaway is gone, but it had a poured transom done by a former owner. It was in about the shape yours is in other than a new transom when I got it. It had been used with no deck in it for many years, only a few sheets of plywood covered in carpet. It came to me with a pair of 65hp electric shift motors, I sold it with a single 150 on it.
Those boats are light, no matter which model you have. Once the transom is done, you have a boat that will outlast you, no matter how you do the transom.

17' models in 1960 were the Edinboro and the Albion:
http://forums.fiberglassics.com/mfg/mfgb6005.jpg
http://forums.fiberglassics.com/mfg/
 

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

After some research, it seems the appropriate amount of nida-bond pourable transom material is $131.89/5gal pail. I need 1.33 pails according to their website transom calculator. so for $264 it seems worth it. 7 times the tensile strength. Maybe up my horse power rating just a little. Say put a 85 or 90 hp in place of the 75 horse one day.
I finally found out what the model of the MFG is. It's a 17' Northeastern hardtop deluxe.
Great lines and the hardtop reminds me of a 60's thunderbird.
 

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Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

Hey thanks to all of you for the help. Really great place for information. I will be posting pics about my restoration. Any suggestions about this "continuous" thread thing? I saw a quick note about keeping everything I post as one continuous thread.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,928
Re: Transom Materials?

Yep, Keep it all on here. When you're ready to start just post your pics here and keep everything together. Makes everything nice and tidy.

I'm just sayin...:D
 

reelfishin

Captain
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
3,047
Re: Transom Materials?

After some research, it seems the appropriate amount of nida-bond pourable transom material is $131.89/5gal pail. I need 1.33 pails according to their website transom calculator. so for $264 it seems worth it. 7 times the tensile strength. Maybe up my horse power rating just a little. Say put a 85 or 90 hp in place of the 75 horse one day.
I finally found out what the model of the MFG is. It's a 17' Northeastern hardtop deluxe.
Great lines and the hardtop reminds me of a 60's thunderbird.

The Northeast Hardtop Deluxe was the Edinboro with a hardtop added.
Most had the model name on the left side of the dash on a small plate, but many of those plates fell off over the years.
I'm not sure if you calculations are right on that Nida-Bond. I did a 1966 Edinboro which would be the same transom as your boat, and used over 2 pails of Seacast and I used extra fiberglass for filler. The calculators at Nida and at Seacast don't match, I'm not sure which to believe but from what I've found, the Seacast calculator is closer.
Either way, the amount of work to support the transom panels might still be more than just using wood. Of course in your case, your looking at a curved transom, which could be a real pain to do in wood layers. I did a Glasspar curved transom a few years ago and used layers of 1/4" exterior ply and epoxy, plus several layers of fiberglass mat. It took many nights and many steps.
The problem I've always found was keeping the inner skin of the transom in shape, this panel is often no more than a single layer of glass mat or cloth and once the wood is gone, it's pretty flimsy. You may still find yourself making a curved support to hold that inner panel in place during the pour? You also have to find a way to block off he transom from the bilge area if you leave the inner fiberglass intact, you can't just pour the Nida Bond into the hollow cavity, it'll just run down into the bilge. Seacast sells spacers but on the few I did I used old solid fishing rod blanks cut to 1.5" to set my spacing. I stuck several of them all around in the transom cavity bonded in place with poly resin. That way the inner skin was supported. The worst part of the job is prepping for the pour and making sure the stuff won't run where you don't want it. Seacast can be poured in sections, on one boat I poured the first 4" stuck a few glass rod blank stubs down in the mix to help it bond, (not sure that was necessary or not?), then let that set up, making sure it wasn't running into the bilge, then after it set up, I finished the pour. I like the result but I think wood was less work in the end.

It all comes down to how long you need it to last, at my age, I feel that wood will outlast me, beyond that, I don't really care. I also know wood works and is proven. I also know that the materials made today are far superior to those used 45-50 years ago. I soak my wood panels in epoxy, then there's a layer of glass between both layers, and I epoxy the transom panel into the hull bonding it to the outer glass skin. I then fill any gaps with epoxy/fiber mix. Most original transoms are no more than wood with glass laid over them, with many gaps. And they still lasted 50 years.
A sheet of top quality ABX ply is about $60, the rest of the supplies are within $100 tops. That's only $160 and a couple of days work.
The last Seacast transom I did cost me roughly $630 with shipping, plus the cost of clean up materials, fiberglass mat for the top cap and some minor reinforcements around the inner corners. The whole job took all weekend, several nights and the following Saturday to finish up.
 

jonesg

Admiral
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,198
Re: Transom Materials?

A 5 gal bucket of seacast is only 2/3 resin, the rest is filler.

I liked the seacast but I'd go with nida if I did it again.
 

Itsalonestar

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
37
Re: Transom Materials?

Similar situation and similar thoughts about transoms. :)

I'm looking at a boat that can last hundreds of years and a transom that could begin to biodegrade in a few. Yup, even wood that has been treated under pressure with preservatives for ground contact can begin to decay in under a decade when exposed to the elements, so I'm not liking the wood option all that much either. All it takes is the right combination of moisture, temperature and air and a teeny little bug to drag the growies that eat wood in on its hind leg to start the process all over again. I don't like the odds.

Another thing.....the weakest, most flexible part of a transom is also where you mount the engine (outboard) A plank is strongest along it's width, not it's thickness. Support a 12 inch board at each end, lay it on it's side and stand on it...it bends....if you jump on it, it might break. Stand it on edge and put weight on it, it won't. No telling how much pressure you'd have to put on it to break it....tons? So the board in a transom would be a lot less prone to flex and break if it were rotated 90 degrees or had components that were. I haven't looked at a huge number of transoms, but I'm guessing the design of most of them ignore this common sense fact.

I haven't seen any of the poured stuff, but I'm guessing what results is something like what the IdaSailor rudder on my sailboat is made of. It started as a liquid and coalesced into a solid white plastic type material. It can snap off under sharp impact but it doesn't rot or corrode. I've also heard it isn't all that resistant to abrasion if you happen to leave it hanging when you pull up the ramp but that's not anything I would ever, ever do.......:redface:.

Since this boat is six feet wide and almost four feet deep I'm thinking I'll just blow off the wood and poured stuff entirely and build a frame from galvanized
stock, probably angle iron, since I have some, that will support a fishing/lounging deck in back and tie directly into the engine mounting holes, the sides, and bottom and not worry about it again. I'd just as soon do aluminum, but not set up for it right now. I'm guessing the galvanized will need to be isolated from the aluminum with an insulator to prevent electrolysis, but not sure. That way if the transom goes, so do the sides and bottom. In that scenario, any survivors will have little doubt about when it's time to go buy another boat. :)

And as far as the philosophy about being too old to care about it a few decades from now....well that's what the jerks who originally built it were thinking, but here we are. HAHAHAHA


Hey just got a 1960 mfg with removable factory top. First off, I dont know what model it may be. I've torn out the wet sponge of a transom and I'm ready to rebuild. My question is: If I cant bear to use plywood (which I cannot) are there any other materials I can use that are bendable? My Transom has a radius to it. Ie: fiberglass or some completely water repellant substrate. Something I can do a lamination with or simply bend and sandwich in place?
 

reelfishin

Captain
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
3,047
Re: Transom Materials?

Similar situation and similar thoughts about transoms. :)

I'm looking at a boat that can last hundreds of years and a transom that could begin to biodegrade in a few. Yup, even wood that has been treated under pressure with preservatives for ground contact can begin to decay in under a decade when exposed to the elements, so I'm not liking the wood option all that much either. All it takes is the right combination of moisture, temperature and air and a teeny little bug to drag the growies that eat wood in on its hind leg to start the process all over again. I don't like the odds.

Another thing.....the weakest, most flexible part of a transom is also where you mount the engine (outboard) A plank is strongest along it's width, not it's thickness. Support a 12 inch board at each end, lay it on it's side and stand on it...it bends....if you jump on it, it might break. Stand it on edge and put weight on it, it won't. No telling how much pressure you'd have to put on it to break it....tons? So the board in a transom would be a lot less prone to flex and break if it were rotated 90 degrees or had components that were. I haven't looked at a huge number of transoms, but I'm guessing the design of most of them ignore this common sense fact.................... ..........................

And as far as the philosophy about being too old to care about it a few decades from now....well that's what the jerks who originally built it were thinking, but here we are. HAHAHAHA

The wood transom I'm replacing right now is exactly 46 years old, it came out in one piece. Its wet, and pretty rotted around the lower edge, but was still supporting the motor and the transom did no crack. The wood is not treated, and is nothing more than two sheets of 3/4" plywood which was glassed in when the boat was molded. I plan to remake a new wood panel, coating each sheet with epoxy, and laminating both together with a layer of glass cloth in between. I also will predrill oversize holes where needed and epoxy in those areas as well. The original wood had no such coating or thought taken as to longevity but yet it lasted 46 years and was still doing its job well enough to not break. The wood I put in it will be protected a hundred times better, be far stronger with the added epoxy and glass layer, and will not have all the air gaps around the edges that the original panel had.
By the time that the wood I put in is even a concern, I'll be too old to care. If it lasts another 40 years, I doubt I'll still be running this boat. It would surprise me if I still own it in 5 years from now.
To do this in Nida Bond, I'm looking at two buckets, at $320 my cost with shipping, plus the added work of blocking off the bilge, building a temporary front panel and spacers to hold in the poured resin and filler, and then I still have to glass in the forward panel when I'm done.
This boat has a sealed lower bilge area, the deck is fiberglass, as are the stringers, so it's still in place. The inner skin of the transom was no more than a rag once the wood was removed. Since I'm doing this with wood again, I just cut around the edges and peeled it off, I'll most likely just glass the same panel right back in place with some strips around the edges for added strength. There's no side structure, just a single wall outer hull and the transom wood stops 3" short of reaching the top cap or gunwales in this boat.
It would be nice to think that if I were able to just pull out the old wood and dump in some resin with the drain tubes in place and be all done but the real fact is that I'd be looking at a few days of building a frame and support for the inner transom, dealing with a way to hold the drain tubes in place to just get ready for the pour, then I also have some concerns about the heat produced when curing and how thin this hull actually is. When I did the Seacast, the stuff got so hot it smoked or steamed for 45 minutes when it began to cure. But on that boat the transom panels were 3/16" fiberglass, the MFG's outer hull is single layer glass less than 1/8" thick with basically no inner support. The splashwell is held in with self tapping screws and a rubber bead along the edge.

If I could drive over and pickup the Nida Core locally, and save the shipping, it might help make me consider it for often on more boats, but on this, its just easier to use wood. I do have a few boats were a poured transom would be the ticket, mostly on any boat where access to the transom wood means cutting or damaging the original structure.
For me, the shipping on the stuff is about $60 per two buckets, add a third and the shipping jumps to $90.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,928
Re: Transom Materials?

I have to agree with reefishin. If you take your time and do it right, a wood transom will save you a LOT of money, time and effort. It WILL last 50 + years especially if you oversize all of your holes and fill them with resin and then redrill to the correct size, or use 3m 4200 to fill any pre-drilled holes when attaching anything to the transom. If you take care of a wood transom it will last longer than YOU!!! For my time and money I will continue to use Ext. Grade plywood and Resin and Fiberglass mat.

I'm just sayin...:D
 

Coho Ghost

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
105
Re: Transom Materials?

Schwag,

I did a NIDA transom, and it is great stuff. The prep is the hardest part; the pour is a cinch.

Be aware that NIDA only comes in 5 gal. units, but 1 gals. are available on kind of a "whenever" basis. I needed 6 gals. for my project and had to wait about 2 weeks for the 1 gal to show up, AND the 1 gals. are free you just have to pay the shipping. The 1 gals. are tail ends of 5 gal production runs.

By the way, the shipping is a $$$ killer - cost me $113.00 to have the 6 gals. shipped from Florida up to Washington state. Big haz-mat charge on it.

NIDA has a great tech support guy you can call and talk to about the specifics of your project. The # is on their website. He had some good suggestions for me - like coat the interior of the transom with catalyzed resin 1-2 days before you pour the NIDA to help the bond.

Good luck, you'll love the NIDA
Coho GHost,
up in Washington state
 

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: Transom Materials?

My opinion (and that's all this is) is that the pourable transoms are GREAT for boats that are in otherwise great condition but have rotted transoms. Remove the transom capping, remove the rotted wood with an electric chainsaw, and pour in a new one. Done. For boats that are total restores (deck, stringers, etc) I'd go plywood. As was mentioned, if done properly, a plywood transom will outlast your interest in this particular boat. Cool boat by the way!
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
941
Re: Transom Materials?

That is a really neat looking boat.

I agree with Ezmobee, and it does sound like a lot of special fitting to create the mold area. BUT, it's your boat. We all like to try different things. Good luck and keep us up to date with how things go.
 
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