Transom Materials?

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
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31
Re: Transom Materials?

After all this advice, I do believe I will go with the pour. As in my pics, I have already carefully removed the inner transom wall and the wood. I will glass the wall back in with glued in spacers periodically placed throughout the cavity. I think I will use some extra carbon arrows from my recurve adventures. After taping over the holes I plan on drilling back out, I will have a leak tight cavity in which to pour. Wish me luck, I will post some "in process" pics at a later date.
 

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crackedglass

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jan 4, 2009
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199
Re: Transom Materials?

Why did you cut the deck out so far forward? Was that bad as well?

I redid an older MFG, a few years newer than yours and never touched the deck, I cut along the edges of the transom with a 4' grinder and a cutoff wheel, peeled off the inner layer of glass, and pretty much pulled the old wood out in one piece. When i was done, I just used epoxy and reinstalled the original inside glass sheet, filled the gaps with some thickened resin, and laid in some 4" strips to cover up and reinforce the side seams. I glassed the deck o the transom with a narrower strip of mat and sort of feathered it into the deck. The result was an almost undetectable repair. The deck on mine was different than the rest of the boat, it had a really thick resin layer or gel coat on top with a molded in pattern for traction. I didn't want to ruin that look.

If you were going to pour the transom, you should have just cleaned out the transom wood with an electric chainsaw, built some reinforcement panels for the inside and been done with it.
 

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: Transom Materials?

After seeing the above picture, I believe even more so that you should just go with wood. I think you would needlessly be making things more expensive and difficult for yourself.
 

Itsalonestar

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
37
Re: Transom Materials?

I agree that wood is a good option for a lot of boats, and epoxies and resins and all the cool stuff we have today allows for maximum encapsulation. In ideal conditions it lasts a long time. Just usually not as long as the rest of the boat. And since it's a fairly important structural component, I find that irksome.
What it gets sealed under is hard and brittle and subject to cracks if the wood gets moisture or humidity and swells, if you happen to hit a pot hole towing it to the lake, whack a stump or any of a broad array of traumatic incidents. The encapsulation can be compromised and moisture can enter . The edge grains are particularly hard to keep sealed. And in wood you've got a mix of porous, softer spring woods, mixed in with the denser summer wood. It's not really structurally consistent. The bugs who eat it tend to agree, as they will often nibble out the spring wood, and pass on the denser, harder to work with summer wood. So do the decay organisms, which gives us what's commonly called jumping ring rot....alternating layers of decay. Not much you can do about the composition of wood you can't get to on the inside. Usually it's what you can't see or get at that causes the problems.

And it's a geographical consideration. Climate here is sub tropical and a long growing season for what eats wood. Boat-filling 12 inch rains are not uncommon at all. There are periods of intense heat and humidity, some years it doesn't freeze. A Phoenix boat, Duluth boat, and a Tampa boat all have different maintenance requirements. I'm thinking if my boat is in Arizona,
there's not much worry about decay. In Tampa....well, those of us who made a living maintaining homes there know there's money to be made from wood exposed to the elements. :) Cinder block and stucco is very popular. I'm closer to Tampa conditions than Arizona conditions.

And as you say, the goals for owning the boat and intended use could be a consideration. I tend to hang onto things, and use them hard and like rugged, low-maintenance stuff I don't have to worry about. My experience with wood as a (wood) inspector for a decade, cabinet maker and contractor for two decades tells me it's probably less than ideal for my locale and intended use. Your mileage may vary. :)

I inherited a freshly constructed, slathered with epoxy, built up plywood
transom ready to install from the previous owner...I'm sure he spent hours putting it together. There are approximately 16 feet of edge around it I will still have to provide a bullet proof sealing solution for. To me it's not worth the effort when I can install a no-worry permanent solution for the same amount of effort. And if I decide to sell it and a prospective buyer inquires about the transom......"Take a look bub...no mysteries with that deal. What you see is what you get." He may be one who has some experience with old boats and biodegradable wood transoms and appreciate not having to wonder what he might be up against when he bolts on that bigger engine.
Or I for that matter, ten years down the road.
Someone mentioned in another thread on the subject that if you're going to get a no-wood boat, you're going to have to pay for the privelege... Hmmmmmmm.




The wood transom I'm replacing right now is exactly 46 years old, it came out in one piece. Its wet, and pretty rotted around the lower edge, but was still supporting the motor and the transom did no crack. The wood is not treated, and is nothing more than two sheets of 3/4" plywood which was glassed in when the boat was molded. I plan to remake a new wood panel, coating each sheet with epoxy, and laminating both together with a layer of glass cloth in between. I also will predrill oversize holes where needed and epoxy in those areas as well. The original wood had no such coating or thought taken as to longevity but yet it lasted 46 years and was still doing its job well enough to not break. The wood I put in it will be protected a hundred times better, be far stronger with the added epoxy and glass layer, and will not have all the air gaps around the edges that the original panel had.
By the time that the wood I put in is even a concern, I'll be too old to care. If it lasts another 40 years, I doubt I'll still be running this boat. It would surprise me if I still own it in 5 years from now.
To do this in Nida Bond, I'm looking at two buckets, at $320 my cost with shipping, plus the added work of blocking off the bilge, building a temporary front panel and spacers to hold in the poured resin and filler, and then I still have to glass in the forward panel when I'm done.
This boat has a sealed lower bilge area, the deck is fiberglass, as are the stringers, so it's still in place. The inner skin of the transom was no more than a rag once the wood was removed. Since I'm doing this with wood again, I just cut around the edges and peeled it off, I'll most likely just glass the same panel right back in place with some strips around the edges for added strength. There's no side structure, just a single wall outer hull and the transom wood stops 3" short of reaching the top cap or gunwales in this boat.
It would be nice to think that if I were able to just pull out the old wood and dump in some resin with the drain tubes in place and be all done but the real fact is that I'd be looking at a few days of building a frame and support for the inner transom, dealing with a way to hold the drain tubes in place to just get ready for the pour, then I also have some concerns about the heat produced when curing and how thin this hull actually is. When I did the Seacast, the stuff got so hot it smoked or steamed for 45 minutes when it began to cure. But on that boat the transom panels were 3/16" fiberglass, the MFG's outer hull is single layer glass less than 1/8" thick with basically no inner support. The splashwell is held in with self tapping screws and a rubber bead along the edge.

If I could drive over and pickup the Nida Core locally, and save the shipping, it might help make me consider it for often on more boats, but on this, its just easier to use wood. I do have a few boats were a poured transom would be the ticket, mostly on any boat where access to the transom wood means cutting or damaging the original structure.
For me, the shipping on the stuff is about $60 per two buckets, add a third and the shipping jumps to $90.
 

Itsalonestar

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
37
Re: Transom Materials?

I guess we could discuss the size of allowable voids in American plywood as opposed to say Canadian plywood, or marine plywood, and also the implications of sealing aforementioned moisture laden voids into a confined space, but it would tend to get tedious wouldn't it? :)
I do find some inconsistencies in comments about "your life and that of your family depending on that there raggedy-*** ole transom" and advocating the use of materials with well-documented performance issues to build them.
Life is truly an endless series of compromises.

When your only tool is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.


I have to agree with reefishin. If you take your time and do it right, a wood transom will save you a LOT of money, time and effort. It WILL last 50 + years especially if you oversize all of your holes and fill them with resin and then redrill to the correct size, or use 3m 4200 to fill any pre-drilled holes when attaching anything to the transom. If you take care of a wood transom it will last longer than YOU!!! For my time and money I will continue to use Ext. Grade plywood and Resin and Fiberglass mat.

I'm just sayin...:D
 

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding everyone who offers wood as the best option. It seems to be that the "amount of hard work" is the serious consideration with most who'd prefer to "use plywood and be done with it". I can tell you that the inner transom skin and the water soaked plywood came out within 15min with a diamond wheel on a dremel and that's it. As for clean up and reglassing the inner skin in I cannot see more than two more hours. Maybe a couple more between some body filler or jellcoat to cover the woven glass to hide the repair. It's not about time for me. A high end cabinet can take me a month of solid 9-5 days to construct, this project seems undeserving of time constraints. Even if I work on it two hours per week and dedicate a solid $25 dollars per week, I'm sure I can have her in the Hudson river by spring. That's about $1000 for repairs and 10 solid 8 hour days of labor. I'll probably spend near that on floatation, flares, paint, transom pouring compound, and a decent ipod dock. I have done extensive adhesive and laminate testing in regards to outdoor cabinetry and have had many mixed results regarding the repetition of the same experiments. Too many to consider ever using it in a water borne situation. Some plywood is simply junk. The laminate adhesives may have been compromised in the factory, or better yet simply changed out for non-weather exposed adhesive due to lesser demand. These things happen more frequently than one my expect. My original question was not whether or not I "should" use wood, rather what materials are available "other" than wood. My intention is not to offend anyone hear. I cannot even warrant an argument regarding plywood, it's simply not an option for me. If I were to in fact use wood of any kind for the transom I would have to go with a solid panel of mahogany or spanish cedar, but the cost of those materials simply blows the nida-pour away. An 8/4 piece of wood 16 ft long and 8-10 inches wide would be necessary before milling and shaping. Just too expensive. As for the plywood "outliving" my interest in the boat or outliving me, most of us have or will have children. I would hate to see my kid repairing something he needn't repair.
 

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

Hey crackedglass,
I never cut the deck because there isn't one. I simply zipped out the inner transom skin right to the bottom and removed it. This boat originally had just a plywood floor in it. Simple replacement. I'll post a few more pics.
 

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Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

One more rant, then I'm done.
I cannot even begin to believe for one minute that an electric chainsaw can properly clean out a "transom sandwich". not even I could justify pouring that much money into a mold that's simply not clean enough to adhere to the skin walls. After taking mine apart and letting it dry, I still need to spend some time prepping the inner walls in order to remove all that wood dust and old adhesive to insure a good bond. I'm possibly too much of a perfectionist, but I couldn't go through with something unless it's a sure thing. That's why I waited 9 years before marrying my wife. HAHA! Anyway, I still appreciate all of everybody's help. And I think I would be hopelessly searching google looking for answers and advice had I not found Iboats.
Thanks again.
Schwagner
 

theriaultserge

Recruit
Joined
Aug 19, 2010
Messages
2
Re: Transom Materials?

Hey Guys
I'm new to this forum but have been boating for years. I recently bought a project boat that needed new stringers, decking transom.... I considering what material to use when I remembered a sample of material my company received from a manufacturer of these structural composite sheets. It is difficult to eplain but it is a composite sandwich board. The outer layers are fiberglass made to the thickness you need and the inner core can be several materials but for the best structure they make it in a honeycomb molded in some type of plastic. (I told you it was hard to describe). Anyways it is a product that cannot rot or hold water, fiberglass faces and it passes missle testing for the Army. I'll post some pics tomorrow. Anyways it is a little costly approx $9.11 per square foot but it's a interesting product. if you google the video type in "as composite" you will see what it is.

Later
 

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

thanks theriaultserge,
Looks promising. Though it appears it is not flexible. I imagine I would have to have them make it in the radius I need for my transom. My quick "of the top of my head" calculations say I need approx a 2x6 piece. That piece at $10/sq' is only $120. This could be cheaper than plywood for everybody with a flat surface transom. I will do some more research on the tensile strengths and whether or not it is bendable for multi-layeral laminations. How does the price change according to thickness? What thickness was the $9.11/sq' piece?
 

Isaacm1986

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
1,086
Re: Transom Materials?

I just finished my 2nd Nida-bond transom pour last night. I helped a friend pour the transom on his boat. Once again I am ASTONISHED how sturdy the transom is. The Nida-bond stuff is simply AMAZING. It really works well.

I think it is worth the cost of the Nida-bond for boat restoration. Nida-core claims the Nida-bond has 9x the strength of marine plywood, and you can really tell the difference. If you decide to go to a bigger motor someday, you don't have to worry about if the transom will "handle" it.

It also ads a nice re-sale point to it. When the day comes for the boat to be sold, the buyer does not have to worry about ever redoing the transom.

I think it is worth it, but this is just my 2 cents.
 

Isaacm1986

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
1,086
Re: Transom Materials?

I forgot to say:

About the chainsaw. When I poured the Nida-bond on the ranger bass boat. I cut the transom cap off, and used my gas powered chainsaw to clean the transom out. It worked REALLY well, and took 30min to have all the wood out of transom. I used the chainsaw to grind up all the wood into a sawdust. Then I took my shop vac and vacumed all the wood out.

Here are some before and after pics.

DSC_0040-3.jpg


DSC_0038-2.jpg


DSC_0036-3.jpg


DSC_0037-3.jpg


I would do it again in a heartbeat.
 

nymack66

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
356
Re: Transom Materials?

Please be sure to consider Arjay as well http://www.arjaytech.com/index.htm, I did my Transom with it excellent product. The reseller I worked with is great and I will recommend them see website http://www.fiberglassservices.com
They are all basically all polyester base resin with ceramic spares to add strength and durability. The choice is yours :)
I used a chainsaw to remove most of the rotten wood, then elbow grease, I however paid attention to detail in the surface preparation which is rigorous cleaning, wiping with Acetone etc.
You can use the best product in the world if the preparation is not done correctly it will certainly fail.
Good luck and post pictures...
 

Isaacm1986

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
1,086
Re: Transom Materials?

Please be sure to consider Arjay as well http://www.arjaytech.com/index.htm, I did my Transom with it excellent product. The reseller I worked with is great and I will recommend them see website http://www.fiberglassservices.com
They are all basically all polyester base resin with ceramic spares to add strength and durability. The choice is yours :)
I used a chainsaw to remove most of the rotten wood, then elbow grease, I however paid attention to detail in the surface preparation which is rigorous cleaning, wiping with Acetone etc.
You can use the best product in the world if the preparation is not done correctly it will certainly fail.
Good luck and post pictures...

I have looked into Arjay as well. From my understanding the Arjay and nida-bond are very close to the same product. The biggest difference for me between the two is that Arjay is only available through distributors and Nida-bond is available straight from Nida-core.

The local distributor of Arjay products here in seattle wanted $215 per 5 gallon pail and another $200 for shipping. $415 for one 5 gallon pail.

The Nida-bond was $390 for 10 gallons shipped to my door.

I know for others the Arjay has been cheaper than the Nida-bond. So i guess it really comes down to what is available at a better price.
 

nymack66

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
356
Re: Transom Materials?

I have looked into Arjay as well. From my understanding the Arjay and nida-bond are very close to the same product. The biggest difference for me between the two is that Arjay is only available through distributors and Nida-bond is available straight from Nida-core.

The local distributor of Arjay products here in seattle wanted $215 per 5 gallon pail and another $200 for shipping. $415 for one 5 gallon pail.

The Nida-bond was $390 for 10 gallons shipped to my door.

I know for others the Arjay has been cheaper than the Nida-bond. So i guess it really comes down to what is available at a better price.

Pricey Pricey ! Please call Fiberglass services much cheaper I am not sure on the shipping cost...
Here is the cost from the current catalog... 5 Gallon $128.13
 

Isaacm1986

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
1,086
Re: Transom Materials?

Pricey Pricey ! Please call Fiberglass services much cheaper I am not sure on the shipping cost...
Here is the cost from the current catalog... 5 Gallon $128.13

Current Nida-bond is $131.19. So i guess it would come down to shipping for me.
 

Schwagner

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
31
Re: Transom Materials?

isaacm1986,
Hey, I'm surprised at the cleanliness of the chainsaw's ability. Good stuff.
Can someone post pics of their nida-pour? I'd love to see it.
 
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