This is why I dont like the ACLU

jtexas · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by bayman: (Not that I believe we came from apes or monkeys.) ... So why would mankind ever come about? Realistically under evolution - at least the way I comprehend it - we should not exist.

I agree. The odds are so stacked against us ever happening at all in the first place. Then, we are so helpless at birth. We have no defense against the elements, no fur, no claws, our teeth are useless for defense, can't run fast enough & not strong to defend against bigger stronger mammals. Come to think of it, we should be nothing more than forage for big cats, or incubators for really nasty viruses. All we have really is opposable thumbs and really big brains, which probably explains why we're so helpless at birth - any further in-utero development and our heads would get way too big for the big push. Evolution explains some things, but not everything. But nevertheless, the odds are pretty good for apes & humans to have common ancestors, don't you think?

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

jtexas wrote, "or incubators for really nasty viruses." I think we are just that. There have been many throughout the years and the big nasty we can't seem to overcome, yet, is AIDS.

JB · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

The reason so many object to fundamentalist/evangelical Christian dominance is that no other religion. . . or group of religions. . .that I know of is so determined to convert everyone else to their beliefs or so hostile to being contradicted. Try getting a thread like this going about Judaism, Hinduism, Bahai, etc. No takers.

jtexas · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Don't you think that a lot of Christians object to religion including, no, especially Christianity, being taught in public schools? Personally I don't mind a teacher telling my kids about how Hindus or Buddists or Jews or Muslims practice their religions as long the material is from credible sources. But I want 'em to get their Christian education from our highly qualified Sunday School Teachers. Wait a sec, that didn't come out just right. Let me think about it. Meanwhile, here's a theory (this may repeat what others have already said, hope that's okay): 1. Science should be taught to children. 2. Whatever is the current state of the art scientific "theories" should be taught in science class. 3. Science should differentiate between "fact" and "theory." 4. Scientists are free to subject any kind of "creationist" theories to the rigors of the scientific method and publish the results. 5. That's how things become "science" suitable for teaching in "science" class. 6. Has nothing to do with religion. 7. Doesn't have anything at all even remotely to do with religion. 8. Doesn't threaten my religious beliefs. 9. There are private schools for those who have problems with "current state of the art science." Remember, this is just a theory. I'm not a scientist. I've never even been nominated for a Nobel prize.

jtexas · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by DJ: What is a teacher in a Social Studies class supposed to say when a student says, "I am a Christian, how come we can't talk about that?" Should the answer be, "you are a fool and every one you know is a fool and we are not allowed to let your kind mention that awful belief system any where in or near school?"

Now that would just be cruel, wouldn't it? Here's a few alternatives: 1. Everybody sit down and shut up! 2. Get out a pencil, we're having a pop quiz. 3. You feel strongly about that, don't you? 4. Class, Suzy here thinks she's better than everybody else. Would anyone like to comment? 5. Here, read this tract about salvation. 6. If you don't believe in the infallacy of the Pope and the inerrancy of scripture, you're going to burn in hell forever! 7. The school administration has asked me to refrain from any discussion of Christianity on school property, based on the fear of parental complaints and ACLU lawsuits. Personally I favor number 7, especially if the students are beyond, say, 4th grade. They can handle that kind of truth. just my own personal opinion. And also, I apologize for being such a smart-244, it's just in my nature.

wilkin250r · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Indeed, jtexas just brought up a very good point never addressed in this thread. There is no "Origins of the World" class in school, in which to compare different theories. Evolution is taught in science class. Creation does not fall under the premise of science, therefore does not belong in a science class any more than geography or spelling.

wilkin250r · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by DJ: I would really like someone to explain to me how our education system is so much better today than it was 50 years ago? It wasn't a problem for the first 175 years of this countries history. Why is it now?

For the very same reasons our society is better now than it was before women could vote and blacks were regarded as property. Because things change, by the will of the people. As for the rest of your post, you are correct, in a perfect world the topic of Christianity is just as valid as any other religion. In a perfect world, people wouldn't object to the topic of Christianity more than any other religion. In a perfect world, the topic of religion wouldn't be used for evangelism. More specific and relevant, the topic of Christianity wouldn't be used for evangelism any more than the topic of Taoism, Judaism, or Hinduism. Sadly, this is not a perfect world. Simple fact of the matter, the topic of Christainity IS abused more than any other religion, and not just by a little bit.

jtexas · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

why it's a problem now but wasn't 175 years ago: The world is much smaller now. Los Angeles is 5 hours from New York, not weeks. New York is hours from London, not months. Something happens anywhere, you know about it 10 minutes later, not weeks or months. Cities are huge, containing diverse peoples drawn together by the need for gainful employment, not little segregated communities drawn together by common backgrounds or beliefs.

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Well wilkin, we'll have to agree to disagree. It is clear that you believe that it is indeed OK to discriminate against one belief system. Just because somebody MIGHT, I mean MIGHT, just abuse the opportunity. Frankly, that thinking should scare the he!! out of anyone. What's next? Throwing slavery and womens suffrage into the argument is a smokescreen. Slavery ended 150 years ago and women have had the right to vote since the early 1900's. I asked about 50 years ago when high school grad's could actually read a diploma. Sixth graders could add, and write. Schools today are just playgrounds for social engineers. Useful education plays second fiddle to PC headgames. By the way, JB and wilkin, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. I'm sure that belief system is not spread by airborn spores. Although some of its more radical factions seem to want to spread anthrax spores. It seems to spread by intimidation. It's coming to a school near you! But, that's perfectly OK. Jtexas, Did I say Suzy thinks she's better? No. I said why can't Suzy have her topic discussed just like Mohammed? Ignoring a belief system in a Social Studies class is, again I say, miseducation. But, the government schools are full of that anyway.

jtexas · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by DJ: Jtexas, Did I say Suzy thinks she's better? No. I said why can't Suzy have her topic discussed just like Mohammed? Ignoring a belief system in a Social Studies class is, again I say, miseducation. But, the government schools are full of that anyway.

Sorry DJ, I just wanted to help out your theoretical teacher. Humiliating Suzy in front of the class would certainly discourage her from any future mention of taboo subjects.

But are you sure that Christianity as a belief system is ignored in Social Studies while others are studied? In my city, schools are run by a locally-elected school board. The board is made up of interested individuals who have other jobs/professions, not full-time politicians or beaurocrats. I don't know about your "government schools" but around here sixth graders can read, write and add. High school graduates can read a diploma. And lots of 'em even get into college, believe it or not, without football scholarships! And go on to get graduate degrees and become productive if not influential members of society! You have my sympathy. If I lived where you did, I'd be moving out of there, or else sending my kids to a private school where they could get an actual education! I do have a theory about the rapid spread of Islam: maybe Muslims have bigger families? Just a thought.

wilkin250r · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Might abuse the opportunity? It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". It's inevitable. Not just inevitable, but has already happened, it's has gone from "might happen" to "proven fact". And as I stated before, the problems are far more prevelent (by a huge margin) with Christianity than any other religion. In fact, even more so than ALL other religions combined. Even when evengelism is expressly forbidden, it is still a problem keeping it out of schools. And I didn't necessarily say that I agree with it. You asked for a reason why other beliefs are acceptable topics, yet Christianity is not. I have given you that reason. You are correct, it's not right. It's the very definition of hypocrisy. But the only other viable alternative would be to ban ALL topics of religion completely. As you have pointed out, that has all sorts of ramifications to the education process. So in the end, a compromise was made. You can eliminate 99% of the problems by excluding the one religion that most students probably already know about anyways.

JB · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Point well made, DJ. Islam is a religion that, like Christianity, has destroyed civilizations and cultures in the name of their beliefs. Frankly, I believe that if discussion of any religious dogma is banned from public schools, discussion of all religious dogma must be banned. It makes more sense, in promoting tolerance, to discuss all religious dogma. Unfortunately, I fear that the KKK would burn the school to the ground in the name of. . . well, you know the rest.

jtexas · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by JB: Point well made, DJ. Islam is a religion that, like Christianity, has destroyed civilizations and cultures in the name of their beliefs.

And don't forget, Joshua fit the battle of Jerico, and the walls came a tumblin down!

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

JB wrote, "Frankly, I believe that if discussion of any religious dogma is banned from public schools, discussion of all religious dogma must be banned." JB, That was EXACTLY my point. All inclusive-or NONE. It makes no sense to not include one over the other, if one wants a real view of all perspectives. However, it seems that we do not want a complete view. That's OK, I'll accept that. The viewpoint of exclusionism has been foretold. I'll leave it at that. Merry Christmas.

mellowyellow · Dec 17, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

I guess I'm lucky. I went to private school all my life and we studied all the religions of the world without bias or judgement. my only problem is calling it science and not what it really is; religion. let's face it, creation is a faith based belief and has absolutely no scientific basis.

kenimpzoom · Dec 17, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by wilkin250r: Indeed, jtexas just brought up a very good point never addressed in this thread. There is no "Origins of the World" class in school, in which to compare different theories. Evolution is taught in science class. Creation does not fall under the premise of science, therefore does not belong in a science class any more than geography or spelling.

I disagree, there are many things in this universe that cant be explained, and that leads to speculation, which leads to philiosphy, which leads to religion. They are all intertwined. Why is it not science to say a "supreme being" created earth? The so called big bang theory, well, who created the stuff that made the big bang? You see what I mean? You can't discuss one without the other. Not discussing it is un-scientific. Teachers dont have to teach religion to say "some believe the universe was created by a supreme being". Just as woodrat recalls being taught in his science class. It is the old, "freedom of religion" vs "freedom from religion" argument. Ken

jtexas · Dec 17, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

It can be science, Ken, if scientists treat it like science. If philosophers treat it like philosophy then I guess it's philosophy. When preachers preach it it's religion. When you get to college you get to talk about complex relationships among science, philosophy, religion, etc. in one of those "liberal arts" classes. Which reminds me, why is there no university that offers a "conservative arts" degree?

jtexas · Dec 17, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by jtexas: Which reminds me, why is there no university that offers a "conservative arts" degree?

Just thought of the answer to my own question: They all do, it's called "MBA"

wilkin250r · Dec 17, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by kenimpzoom: I disagree, there are many things in this universe that cant be explained, and that leads to speculation, which leads to philiosphy, which leads to religion. They are all intertwined.

"First, we will practice our spelling, and then our multiplication. After recess, we will discuss the theory of evolution vs creation, other unexplained phenomenon in the universe and how it relates to philosophy, and how the advent of quantum physics helped us come closer to the answers." I don't know about you, but I started learning evolution right about 3rd grade. Don't you think that's a little early to bring up the complex relationship between science, philosophy, and religion? I'm not saying I disagree with you completely. I think it is an admirable subject, as an elective in college.

DJ · Dec 17, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

See below, not sure why it double posted.

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