This is why I dont like the ACLU

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Mellow quoted, "To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself." I agree. One cannot force faith/belief. But, some groups are forcing the non faith/belief agenda. Either way is manipulation. I do not see a problem with so called religious leaders offering an "invitation". However, I also believe that invitation does not belong in a government school. Teaching about the belief system of a group of people is not an invitation. What is everybody so afraid of? I learned about canabilism is school. I didn't become one. Would it be so terrible if some young mind started thinking about these things, further, on his/her own? Schools should also be teaching youngsters how to think. Indoctrination, either way, is still just that.

jtexas · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by mellowyellow: To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within.... Sophy Burnham

I've never seen President Bush. Maybe he doesn't exist.

spratt · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by kenimpzoom: What exactly are these people afraid of, that their kids will suddenly find religion. Ken

When my church congregaton was in teh process of building our church, we had someone from teh County Commissioners group take a personal vendetta because we were a church...he went around and got folks around the neighborhood to signa petitin to block us...it failed,a dn the State Supreme Court ruled against him, and he was not allowed to have any input or any decision making power at all in future involvements concerning the church. Also, the County settlement put a gag order against any of the settlement being discussed outside the courtroom. Now, what was he afraid of? That people int he neighborhood would find God and his friends would no longer be drunks also? He actually wanted the land we bought to be transferred to a bar owner who wanted to enlarge his business in the area... As was mentioned in ages past, "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself"...

ob · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Older civilizations have lived and experienced things that have become our theories in many cases.Heck,we're still arguing about the origin and age of the sphynx.Modern science wasn't the first to find dinosaur bones.Perhaps early man left better records of their existance than we do today.Most of what we know was dug out of the earth in the form of stone.Where and when will some future spieces ten thousand or more years from now find our records and methods?Stored on plastic computer discs and paper? Maybe we should just make the best of our space and time and not try to outsmart this thing we call eternity.

spratt · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by woodrat: I don't know about any of you guys, but when I was in middle school, we certainly did touch on creationism. No one preached it and we didn't spend long there. But the basics of the belief system were touched on. it was something along the lines of "some folks believe it happened like this:" and then we went on. No damage done!

Now WR, I am not so sure no damage was done

It really seems to have affected you!!! Or at least your views of the world itself...JB wasn't in that class was he?

mellowyellow · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

falling on deaf ears I guess... MY in favor of teaching the story of creation in the bible to ALL students. same with all other religious/culteral beliefs around the world. knowledge is a good thing... 'cept, they want this taught in "science" class. problem here... think y'all r really saying that religion as a "subject matter" should not be banned. MY too

tony779 · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Genisis is completly metaphorical. You obviously havent read the entire Bible. It says it is written so that the simplest person can understand it. So if you cant understand it, what does that say about you?

mellowyellow · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

the word u forgot to mention was "interpretation" of the meaning cadet, otherwise your point has no merit.

wilkin250r · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Why do we need to teach creation? What is the problem with leaving it at home? Certainly you have figured out by now the above question is a bit of a troll, fishing to get some people in a trap. The answer you would give me is "because it is a popular, widely held theory, just as evolution is a popular theory" Meanwhile, I believe your motives are a little deeper. There has already been one person to bring up, what I feel, is a very scary thought process. "What exactly are these people afraid of, that their kids will suddenly find religion." Public education should never, never, (I cannot stress this enough) NEVER be an induction into religion.

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Wilkin, Not presenting the idea that so many believe can be considered just as much manipulation as presenting it. Just because you ignore it, doesn't mean it does not exist. Facts are facts. If you want a REAL understanding of what influenced, and still does to some extent, our policies in this country, one cannot ignore it. I didn't say, evangelize, I said teach about what many people believe. You do not have to teach why they believe that way, just that they do. Nobody seems to be able to explain why EVERY other belief system can be mentioned, just not Christianity. Excluding the subject is miseducation.

wilkin250r · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by DJ: Nobody seems to be able to explain why EVERY other belief system can be mentioned, just not Christianity. Excluding the subject is miseducation.

Ordinarily, I try to make arguments as black-and-white as possible. Either yes or no. I don't care about popular or "nice". However, please excuse the hypocrisy of this post. We live in a real world, and Christianity is a hot topic. It's taboo. Many people are afraid that religious topics will lead to evengelism. And rightly so, even when evengelism is explicitly prohibited, it is STILL a problem. Just ask JB, he has dealt with it many times. But look inside and be honest with yourself. Are you really afraid that a teacher will preach Greek Mythology, all hail Zeus? Are you afraid that a teacher will preach that the Rain Gods of ancient Aztec civilizations are real? Are you really worried that your child's teacher will try to convert him/her to Taoism? I am very confident that a discussion about Shintoism will not turn into a sermon. I'm NOT so confident about a discussion on Christianity. THAT is why Christianity is expressly forbidden. Because we can't trust it to remain factual and unbiased.

bayman · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Since we are discussing science and religion I'd like to quote Albert Einstein on this subject as I think he makes some sense: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" "Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man.... In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."

tony779 · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Why is it that if you believe in creation you are called narrow minded? When you only allow one thought process, belief, theory or whatever you want to call it, you are the one who is narrow minded. I have studied both creation and evolution throughout my life and the one scientific fact that disproves evolution for me is the fact that non-life cannot generate life. Without being able to prove that one thing then evolution cannot be true. Whether the earth is 20,000 years old or 4,000,000,000,000,000. Science is used in regards to history as a tool to prove or disprove written accounts or theories. Science has done more to disprove evolution than creation over the years. Why do you think they are still looking for the missing link? If evolution was true, why are there still lower life forms? Why isnt the population greater than what it is if the earth is so old? Everyone wants to throw out questions against creation but they dont question the scientists that present evolution.

NOSLEEP · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Small amounts of science leads men away from God. Large amounts of science brings men back.

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Wilkin, Why single out Christians as the ONLY ones that MAY evangelize? Do you really believe that Islamists, Jews, Buddists, etc don't evangelize to their way of thinkng? The door swings both ways. I've had many people try to "evangelize" me too, except it wasn't to Christianity. Thinking that only Christians are capable of such an evil plot seems a bit one sided to me.

bayman · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Quotting mercmakinmemad: "Science has done more to disprove evolution than creation over the years. Why do you think they are still looking for the missing link?" In reality many are missing the point here. There shouldn't be one missing link, but thousands upon thousands of missing links since evolution is a very gradual, sloooow process. (Not that I believe we came from apes or monkeys.) According to the theories of evolution then, if mankind did come from monkeys there would have to be literally thousands of permutations. If they did exist we should have found at least hundreds of permutations of "sub humans" so far. If evolution is based on survival of the fittest, then why do humans even exist at all? Are not bacteria the MOST advanced life form under the definition of evolution and survival? Bacteria outnumber mankind by trillions upon trillions. And bacteria can adapt to their environments MUCH more quickly than mankind. Bacteria actually reproduce millions or billions of times faster than mankind under ideal circumstances. So why would mankind ever come about? Realistically under evolution - at least the way I comprehend it - we should not exist.

wilkin250r · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

DJ, You misunderstand me. I am not saying that only Christians are capable of underlying motives and hidden agendas. However, Christianity is the major religion of this great nation of ours, and the odds of a schoolteacher being of Christian faith are VASTLY greater than Islamic or Buddhist. Let's say that, regardless of faith, that 1 out of 1000 teachers would inappropriately preach their religion in a classroom. According to percentage populations of religion in the U.S. in 2000, out of 1 million teachers, this would translate to: 760 Christain teachers preaching their faith. 5 Islamic preachers 5 Buddhist 1 Wiccan. I am not saying that only Christianity is capable of evangelizing their faith. I'm saying that in the U.S., it is much more likely simply by population. We're not talking twice as likely, or even ten times as likely. If there is inappropriate evanglism in a classroom, it is 152 times more likely to be Christianity than Buddism or Islamic, and even more for other religions.

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Wilkin, Even with more numbers, that does not mean that they would. As I said before, if they cannot present the facts regarding a belief system, any belief system, they should not be in the classroom. Any study of social issues has to include the topics that motiovate and influence a population. Without it, there is no sense trying to teach it.

wilkin250r · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by DJ: As I said before, if they cannot present the facts regarding a belief system, any belief system, they should not be in the classroom.

Well, that's a fine and dandy theory, but we live in the real world. Do you know why there are no specific rules and guidelines about appropriate and/or inappropriate use of a milking machine in sex-ed class? Because, quite frankly, the topic has never come up, there really isn't a need to address the issue. Do you know why there are specific rules and guidelines governing the topic of religion? Because it is a rule that is constantly disregarded and abused. Now, as you have alluded to, you can't simply ignore religion altogether. It's an important topic to painting the whole picture and explaining motives for certain actions. Thus, you exclude Christianity for several reasons: -The potential for abuse is MUCH greater (again, by population) -The students are much more likely to already know the factual fundmentals of Christianity, and much more likely to NOT know other religions. -People are much more likely to OBJECT to the topic of Christianity than other religions. Nobody likes a lawsuit.

DJ · Dec 16, 2004

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Wilkin wrote, "Now, as you have alluded to, you can't simply ignore religion altogether. It's an important topic to painting the whole picture and explaining motives for certain actions. Thus, you exclude Christianity for several reasons: "-The potential for abuse is MUCH greater (again, by population) -The students are much more likely to already know the factual fundmentals of Christianity, and much more likely to NOT know other religions. -People are much more likely to OBJECT to the topic of Christianity than other religions. Nobody likes a lawsuit." That's absurd. I can't believe you actually wrote that. So, we just eliminate one because there might be more of them? All other belief systems can be taught with gusto, yet this one is taboo? How on Earth does one justify that? When you say "people are more likely to object", I doubt that. It seems to me that it is always a VERY small group, or an individual, that seems to have a problem with it. What is a teacher in a Social Studies class supposed to say when a student says, "I am a Christian, how come we can't talk about that?" Should the answer be, "you are a fool and every one you know is a fool and we are not allowed to let your kind mention that awful belief system any where in or near school?" I would really like someone to explain to me how our education system is so much better today than it was 50 years ago? It wasn't a problem for the first 175 years of this countries history. Why is it now?

This is why I dont like the ACLU

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