This is why I dont like the ACLU

[jtexas]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

JB, thanks for the clarification, I thought maybe they were just holding out for the possibility that somewhere there's a right triangle that doesn't conform. Maybe in Escher's world. <br /><br />

<br /><br />Do you by any chance remember something called an "infinite improbability drive" from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams?

 

[DJ]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Mellow,<br /><br />You completely missed my point. 6000 years-yes- by a different timetable. I believe it is billions of years old, on OUR timetable.<br /><br />Read the quote again.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> and if the teachers were allowed to teach creationism, then there would eventually be a great hue and cry somewhere that they weren't teaching the right version of creationism, and then the angry fundamentalist christians would be the ones filing lawsuits and picketing schools. (you know when they talk about getting rid of the lawyers, they plan on keeping their own lawyers around...)

Bingo.<br /><br />The problem as I see isn't really creationism. The problem is religion and people. When dealing with religious topics, some people just can't keep their mouth's shut. I obviously cannot prove it, but I'd be willing to bet my paycheck for the next five years that if we teach creationism in school, somebody will abuse it and turn it into their own personal sermon, having their own captive congregation. <br /><br />We already saw it once with the teacher not allowed to present the Declaration of Independence. Historical fact was not the problem, his own personal religous agenda was the problem.<br /><br />It just opens up a can of worms. I would have no problem with presentation of different theories, except that some people can't be trusted to shut up and leave their own personal bias out of the curriculum.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

but creation scientists say it's 6,000yrs old<br />exactly DJ, that was MY point sir.

 

[jtexas]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

DJ, A.D. stands for Anno Domini, latin phrase meaning "in the year of our Lord." 2004 years since Jesus's birth. <br /><br />But I like your thinkin; what are we gonna do about the calendar? Let's launch a lawsuit to have it banned from public schools and government offices! No more tax return deadlines! April 15 will become just another day of the year!<br /><br />And if I read you correctly about a "different timetable," sounds like you're not limiting God's time to days consisting of 24-hour periods. Right?<br /><br />One interpretation of the biblical creation story has it that the seventh day of creation hasn't ended yet, since the end each of the first six days is explicitly described ("the morning and the evening were the ____ day"), but not the seventh. That would put each "day" at 6000 years and counting, or by our calendar, 2.1 million years and still counting! And that's assuming each day is of equal length. Why try to box God into our clock? Still think there's a conflict between science and religion? To me, every new discovery just reaffirms God's hand in creation.<br /><br />I believe in evolution as the mechanism of creation, but there's more to it than just random genetic. Statistically speaking, 60 million years is not enough time to randomly produce a bat's ability to navigate by sonar. I just don't believe it's possible.<br /><br />BTW, MY, Charles Darwin was a Christian who believed in "creationism" (not sure that term was used back then). He was just seeking a better understanding of the natural world. He was appalled when people started using his work to dispute the Bible as the Word of God.<br /><br />[edit - I was typing during your last post, DJ, sorry for the redundancy]

 

[DJ]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

People are people. Teachers are supposed to be "professionals". If they cannot present a subject such as Christianity, without bias, they should not be teaching.<br /><br />As it stands now, they can teach on any religion-except Christianity. Kwanza's OK, Jewish faith is OK, Hinduism-OK, Islam-OK, etc, etc. Just not Christianity.<br /><br />To me that seems like exclusionism. <br /><br />How can you teach social studies without diving into one aspect of a belief system that has driven social policies and practices?<br /><br />It's akin to the 800 pound gorilla in the room that everyone is trying their best to ignore. How silly.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

howdy tex.<br />"BTW, MY, Charles Darwin was a Christian who believed in "creationism" (not sure that term was used back then). He was just seeking a better understanding of the natural world. He was appalled when people started using his work to dispute the Bible as the Word of God."<br /><br />who told u this? yur pastor?<br />while he may well have been a man of faith,<br />he stood behind his "scientific" study/findings<br />against tradition. what he said on his deathbed<br />many years later does not overshadow this IMO.<br /><br />does anyone have the slightest knowledge about<br />Darwin's scientific studies?

 

[DJ]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Mellow,<br /><br />Darwin renounced his evolutionary beliefs, before his death.<br /><br />Darwin never was a Christian. His wife was a devout one.

 

[JB]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

When creation theory was written, as in The Bible, we knew very little about causes and effects in the physical universe, so everything was explained in terms that people accepted and understood.. . like, "God did it".<br /><br />Science has learned plenty since those days, but "Creationists" seem to insist on clinging to the old explanations.<br /><br />I don't have a problem viewing the advance of scientific knowledge as an advance in knowledge and understanding of God. <br /><br />We needn't reject old explanations as being shown untrue by science and "proving" that there is no God. We need to recognise science as providing new explanations of the same truths. <br /><br />We can go from a simple, "God did it." to "This is some of how God did it."

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

If a teacher cant say the following words "one of the therories about where we came from is the universe is so complex that it must have been created by some higher power, ask your parents for more information" and nothing more, they should be fired.<br /><br />Not saying the above, is as stupid as not teaching evolution.<br /><br /><br />It is like somebody else said, to ignore this theory is like ignoring an 800 lb gorrilla in the classroom.<br /><br /><br />Ken

 

[DJ]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

JB,<br /><br />Agree.<br /><br />We tend to think of how we humans would do something. God is not human.

 

[bayman]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

The Earth can both be 6,000 years old and billions of years old at the same time. God never said that he didn't create the Earth from materials already in existence. So both the scientists and the creationists can be right on this one. When Jesus made wine from water, the water already existed, he didn't create it from nothing.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Originally posted by JB:<br /> When creation theory was written, as in The Bible, we knew very little about causes and effects in the physical universe, so everything was explained in terms that people accepted and understood.. . like, "God did it".<br /><br />Science has learned plenty since those days, but "Creationists" seem to insist on clinging to the old explanations.<br /><br />I don't have a problem viewing the advance of scientific knowledge as an advance in knowledge and understanding of God. <br /><br />We needn't reject old explanations as being shown untrue by science and "proving" that there is no God. We need to recognise science as providing new explanations of the same truths. <br /><br />We can go from a simple, "God did it." to "This is some of how God did it."

JB, I completly agree. Genisis is completly metaphorical.<br /><br />But can anyone prove that God did not make the universe and the earth, and then also make the bacteria, that evolved into humans?<br /><br />Perhaps Adam and Eve were just two tiny amoeba?<br /><br />Ken

 

[jtexas]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Don't remember where I got that idea, MY, one of those things you learn when you're young and never gets challenged until now.<br /><br />Interesting discussion.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

I would LOVE to see creation tought in schools<br />everywhere... in religion class.<br />science class should require scientific study<br />and just cuz u put 2 words together (creation<br />and science) don't make it science. creation<br />science doesn't pass the very first test i'm<br />afraid.<br />what get's MY short hairs up on this subject is<br />the obvious (to me) deception of preachers who<br />are trying to pass off faith as science.<br />it's not honest and even though I am a man of<br />faith who believes in creation, I detest any<br />man of the cloth who isn't on the level.<br />faith is about as scientific as love IMO.<br />sneaking in the back door is BS...

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself. <br />Sophy Burnham

 

[jamesgreen]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Why can't there be room for both? why does it have to be cut and dry? Evolution occurs everyday on some level somewhere and so do miracles?

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

in MY mind, there is James. it's just 2 diff subjects...

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

Mellowyellow, the same things happen with physics and philosophy. At higher levels they begin to mix. One is science, one is conjecture.<br /><br />The old "cat in two places at once" paradox.<br /><br />But they manage to teach both (I know, I took it).<br /><br />Ken

 

[woodrat]

Re: This is why I dont like the ACLU

I don't know about any of you guys, but when I was in middle school, we certainly did touch on creationism. No one preached it and we didn't spend long there. But the basics of the belief system were touched on. it was something along the lines of "some folks believe it happened like this:" and then we went on. No damage done! But the teacher was not preaching his own beliefs. I was lucky enough to make it through school without even being aware of any of my teachers' personal belief systems.<br /><br />Religious studies belong at home, in church, or in comparitive religion class.