The God Gap.

[Boomyal]

Re: The God Gap.

the_dude, there are plenty more references to 'the hand of God's' influence in this Great Experiment, that were made by the Founding Fathers. All there to read, for those that are interested.<br /><br />But I daresay that many do not care to read them. The Progressives, in modern America, are so filled with self importance that the concept of a loving God keeping his 'hands' on a society is not fathomable. <br /><br />In fact, I contend, that there is concerted effort to destroy Christianity, not having anything to do with fairness, tolerance, inclusivess or fear of radical religious interference in our day to day existance. The preiminent existance of God in ones life dilutes the power of the State. If the state is willfully and consciously trying to wring the power out of it's citizenry, they have to destroy Christianity to succeed. There is no doubt that that is exactly what is happening in our society. You'd have to be blind to ignore the abundant evidence.

 

[thedude7803]

Re: The God Gap.

Boomyal, I couldn't agree more. Jefferson also stated that government with slow and calculated moves always reverts back to tyranny. I think he was right, and we are watching that happen now. Constitutional rights are being stripped from us every day by big brother, as we sit idly by. And we still argue about who is right, democrats or republicans. When will we realize that it is neither have our interests at heart? Both are motivated by personal gain. Take a close look at John Kerry for instance. Every thing he has done in his life has been a calculated move to get him to where he is today. For the love of America and its people? No, for the love of power. On issues such as preservation of our constitutional rights and fiscal responsibility, you would be hard pressed to fill a shot glass with the real differences between a democrat and republican.

 

[PW2]

Re: The God Gap.

Well, there are a few of us that want to protect and defend the constitution.<br /><br />And since a good share of the people that originally came to this country came to escape religious persecution, I think iit is safe to say that since they put in a clause specifically admonishing the government from establishing any religion, chances are that is what they meant.<br /><br />So I am curious. Which religion should be taught and practiced in the schools? Is Muslim ok? Budhism? Wiccan?<br /><br />And the specific reason religion should be kept out of schools is precisely what we have seen on this board. And that is that other uses of religion (ie on the money- in the pledge, etc.) are specifically used as justifications for yet more religion--and there is never an end to it. There is no point when these militant Christians will be satisfied--at no time will you ever hear "Well, that is enough. We don't need any more"<br /><br />And of course they only want their religion, and no others, represented.<br /><br />There are plenty of opportunities to spread your word without having the government involved to force participation, with the resultant discrimination leveled at those that choose not to participate. And you simply cannot tell me that there is no discrimination involved to those that don't participate. I've seen it time and time again.<br /><br />This is the very thing that the original emigrates to this country sought to avoid by coming to this country.

 

[thedude7803]

Re: The God Gap.

Part of the problem is our society has become ultra-sensitive. Everything offends someone, and then some group tries to stop it. Praying in a school is not descrimination. We bandy that word about so freely that I don't think a majority of Americans even know what it means anymore. This isn't just a freedom of religion issue, it is a freedom of speech issue as well. I have actually been scolded at work for saying "God bless you" when someone sneezed. I was told, you can keep your God's blessings. Talk about being sensitive. I wasn't saying, my God blesses you and you must now conform to my beliefs. I was just being polite. From now on when people sneeze I guess I should just say "Good Health to You." But then again that may offend suicidal people and self-loathers. You can't win. <br /><br />The bottom line is, their is a growing attitude in this country that goes something like this:<br /><br />"Yes this is a free country. Yes we have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. Oh, but we forgot to mention, you can only exercise those rights if everyone else agrees with them. Otherwise it is descrimination."

 

[aspeck]

Re: The God Gap.

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> So I am curious. Which religion should be taught and practiced in the schools? Is Muslim ok? Budhism? Wiccan?

But, PW, that is what is happening. The students in the schools are being taught the tenants of faith of the above, but mention Christianity and it is a NO-NO!<br /><br />Personally, I feel that history should not be rewritten, and since most of our history came from a desire to have religious freedom, that history should be told. Why must we hid that most of our history has sprung from a judeo-christian belief?<br /><br />When history is re-written, and time is given to everything else than what this country was founded upon, then I get upset. I am not asking for the government to establish a religion, but the government has no right to demonize Christianity.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: The God Gap.

Let's face it, for years Christianity has demonized everything. It has demonized other religions, it has demonized the lack of religion. To the Christian faith, the world is very black and white. An athiest, even if morally sound, is as evil as any Satan-worshipper. Even the different factions of the Christian faith have demonized each other.<br /><br />In the past, prayer was practiced in schools. Those that practiced a different religion, or no religion at all, were admonished by society. Freedom of religion seemed to exist only if you were Christian.<br /><br />Even today, in smaller towns throughout America, a high-school football coach can offer a prayer before game. Can that same coach bring in incense and practice a Wiccan ritual? Heck no, it wouldn't be tolerated.<br /><br />And now today, there is a battle for true religious freedom. That battle has taken shape as Christianity vs Everything Else. And is the Christain faith going to just roll over? Will the Christain faith just say:<br /><br />"Yes, I think it's perfectly acceptable for a teacher to chant a Wiccan ritual during class"<br /><br />"Yes, let's put 'Allah is Merciful' on a Federal courthouse."<br /><br /><br />No, the Christian faith will not just roll over and allow these things to happen. And because of that, the Christian faith is demonized. Because they won't concede, they will not give in. They will not allow the intrusion of other religions, or lack of, into their territory.<br /><br />The demonization of the Christian religion is a product of the battle. There is always a good guy and a bad guy in any war, it just depends on which side you're looking at. If the Christain religion wasn't fighting, there would not be a battle, and thus they would not be the "bad guy".

 

[thedude7803]

Re: The God Gap.

oops!

 

[thedude7803]

Re: The God Gap.

Originally posted by wilkin250r:<br /><br />"In the past, prayer was practiced in schools. Those that practiced a different religion, or no religion at all, were admonished by society. Freedom of religion seemed to exist only if you were Christian."<br /><br /><br />And now, freedom of religion only exists if you are NOT Christian. That is the crux of the whole argument. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. This reminds me of the old Model A slogan: "You can have any color, so long as it is black." Today's version: "You can have freedom of religion, so long as it is not Christianity." <br /><br />No I am not delusional. I am being extreme to make a point.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: The God Gap.

True. As I stated earlier, Christianity is being unfairly persecuted.<br /><br />My point is: That is a natural by-product of the battle. You can't escape it. In any war, there is always going to be a bad guy.<br /><br />Now there seems to be two separate issues and battles going on, and they are linked. <br /><br />The first battle is tradition vs change. Should God be on our currency, in our Pledge of Allegiance, on our courthouses? God and religion have been in our schools in the past, there's not much debate about that. The debate is; should we keep it there or remove it?<br /><br />Now, this spawns a new issue. As a by-product of the first battle, Christianity is unfairly persecuted. Other religions are acceptable to discuss in the education system, but Christianity is not. Other religions are tolerated, while Christianity isn't.<br /><br />Like I said, the second issue is a natural by-product of the first debate, unavoidable. The only way to avoid it is for the debate to not exist. <br /><br />Now, the irony I see is when the "traditionalists" from the first debate use this by-product of unfair persecution as support for thier arguements! They are fighting to keep God in the schools, claiming that their religion is being unfairly persecuted.<br /><br />Think about it. If you weren't fighting to keep God in school, your religion wouldn't be unfairly persecuted!

 

[12Footer]

Re: The God Gap.

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> Well, there are a few of us that want to protect and defend the constitution.<br />

And we are getting fewer by the day!<br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />And since a good share of the people that originally came to this country came to escape religious persecution, I think iit is safe to say that since they put in a clause specifically admonishing the government from establishing any religion, chances are that is what they meant.<br />

What is so hard about interpreting what the Constituion dictates? It's not like the Bible, which humans pick-appart until they can no longer get thier power base legalized thru it's word---so they write a new one!<br />With the constitution, they have to have "ammendments", which take a large following to get installed.<br />Personally, I hold that all 'ammendments' are abhorrences to what the founding fathers gave us. But that is another thread.<br />They came here because they were not allowed to WORSHIP thier faith. It was a criminal act in England. It's what the Pilgrims consisted of. Well, we are not fleeing America to escape a tyranical government again. Where would we go anyway? FRANCE?? I like my faith.I like my church. I have yet to burn down anyone else's church, or insist they remove thier symbols from public places. But the day will come if these assaults continue. Self-preservation is not evil.It's self-preservation. In the meantime, know that the words, "soldier of Christ" were not a lable I gave myself without much forethought (40+ years of it,to be specific).<br />I will not stand idlly-by, as these assaults are perpetrated. <br /><br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />So I am curious. Which religion should be taught and practiced in the schools? Is Muslim ok? Budhism? Wiccan?<br />

ANSWER: Whatever religion that gives the course in question it's title, (duh).<br /><br />What if they opened enrollment on an elective course on any of those 'faiths', and nobody came? I'll tell ya...It would cease to be offered...But these courses are allowed, where Christian studies are not (Actual examples, Berkley/Bhudism, Kent State/Taoism(sp)).<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />And the specific reason religion should be kept out of schools is precisely what we have seen on this board. And that is that other uses of religion (ie on the money- in the pledge, etc.) are specifically used as justifications for yet more religion--and there is never an end to it. There is no point when these militant Christians will be satisfied--at no time will you ever hear "Well, that is enough. We don't need any more"

That is 100% correct. Christians want God to be the conerstone of thier lives. <br />Christians want a safe,secure place to worship thier faith, without fear of being persicuted.<br />Christians strive for peace on Earth.<br />Christians insist upon being allowed to worship thier faith.<br />Because they are Christians, they are taught tolerance of all other faiths. As American Christians, they will fight for that freedom with thier lives.<br />I don't ever expect you to understand this. You are truely too far gone. But as a Christian, a soldier for Christ, I must draw the line in the sand.<br />Take away my rights to worship, and you had best be armed. I'm sorry if this scares you. Perhaps yyou should move accross the border. Oh, that's right---you allready did!!!<br /><br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />And of course they only want their religion, and no others, represented.

BS big time.Since when? Do we look like Alqueda to you? Twisted don't begin to decribe that opinion!!!!<br /><br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />There are plenty of opportunities to spread your word without having the government involved to force participation, with the resultant discrimination leveled at those that choose not to participate.

Christians do not want to "involve" the government in "spreading the word". QUITE THE OPPOSITE! We insist the government leave us allone to worship our God!!!<br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />You simply cannot tell me that there is no discrimination involved to those that don't participate.

I can't? How does my act of worship EXCLUDE you in any way? And when have you been forced to worship? (in your adult life, parents excluded)---been down that slippery slope myself.<br /><br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />I've seen it time and time again.

More BS......I callalenge you to provide me with one honest example of that!!!!<br /><br />

Originally posted by PW2:<br /><br />This is the very thing that the original emigrates to this country sought to avoid by coming to this country.

I'll assume you meant "IMIGRANTS" as opposed to "IMIGRATES".<br /><br />And you would seek a judge to remove it from the Rotunda.<br /><br /><br />I really think we are talking about precisely the same rights and freedoms at risk, but I don't think you grasp the magnitude of of the threat. Onm top of the relentless assaults on our freedoms by the atheists , socialist judges, those threatened by groups that happen to have members who are also government officials, we now have Hamas, the 'nation' of islam, and thier lunatic fringe to be vigilant of in our own country. You and I have allowed this. <br />Just how oppressed must you be , before you wake up?<br />Will it take a bombing closer to home to pull you away from the abyss of ignorance and apathy?<br />I hope not. God is not that bad a deity to place one's faith and hope upon. "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15 and 12Footer)..If it frightens you, or you don't like it, Don't come in. But know this---you are allways invited. <br />My house serves a real prince of peace,and he aint running for any office of this Earth. Is there anything threatening about that?

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: The God Gap.

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /> <br />Because they are Christians, they are taught tolerance of all other faiths.

I would disagree with this statement. You may have been taught tolerance of all other faiths, but that doesn't seem to be the general rule, based on my experience.<br /><br />I am very strong in my faith. I have attended many churches, seeking a fellowship that coincided with my own personal morals, separate from the morals taught to me by my faith. These morals would include tolerance and acceptance, among others.<br /><br />I searched a lot of churches, and I never found it. In fact, far from it. The very thing that drove me away from most every church I have ever attended was the intolerance. Intolerance for other factions of the Christian faith, and intolerance for other religions, intolerance for a different set of beliefs. The only word I can use to describe the level of intolerance is hatred. I could not believe the amount of hatred I saw in the church. It truly was mind-boggling.<br /><br /><br />Other than that one statement, very good post. I agree, nobody should ever tell you that you cannot worship. Nobody should tell you that you SHOULD worship, if you choose not to. Nobody should tell you when , how, or who to worship. That brings me to the cornerstone of my arguement and beliefs. Religion should be removed from everything public. I would never wish to impress Islamic beliefs and views upon you, that is not your faith. Along the same lines I would not wish to impress Christian beliefs through the legal and educational system upon those not of the Christian faith. God should not be in our classrooms, our courthouses, or our laws and legal system. These are things that EVERYBODY is obligated to attend or adhere to, and some of those people are of different faiths or beliefs.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: The God Gap.

12fter, another great post and you will not be the only one to make a stand for your faith.<br /><br />"God is not that bad a deity to place one's faith and hope upon. "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15 and 12Footer)..If it frightens you, or you don't like it, Don't come in. But know this---you are allways invited."<br />excellent comment 12fter. <br /><br />Wilkin Im am sorry and can relate with that feeling that many Christians dont understand and follow the Gods's most importiant commands for us. Love God with all your heart mind and soul and love others as you love yourself. I guess its up to us as Christians to change that perception many people Christian and non-christian have about the church today. How can we expect to be able to stand up for ourselves and protect our beliefs when so many denominations cant seem to get along. <br /><br />Those of you who seem so anti-Christian are also the same people who if somebody acted against or said negitive comments about islam would be up in arms and would throw comments like bigot,preduduce and hate filled. ........hmmmmmmm

 

[PW2]

Re: The God Gap.

I am curious exactly how the government is trying to subvert your religious beliefs, or your ability to practice them. They give you tax exemptions, there are churches on virtually every street corner, there are public access TV outlets, and every Sunday morning it seems the TV is full of one evangelist or another.<br /><br />FTR I have no problem with this at all.<br /><br />And public universities teach comparitive religion classes all the time. It is, after all, education. I actually have no problem with that in high schools as well, except they tend to get subverted.<br /><br />And there is a not so fine line between "learning" what a religion is about, as opposed to the "practicing" of that religion. If any of our tax supported schools are attempting to practice any religion of any stripe it is wrong-no matter what that religion is.<br /><br />Oh, and you have no idea what my personal beliefs or religion is. It is personal to me, and is none of yours, or our government's, business.

 

[thedude7803]

Re: The God Gap.

PW2,<br /><br />Just so you, and everyone else reading this thread is aware, there are groups (the ACLU I believe and others) currently lobbying to the FCC to remove church broadcasts from the airwaves, both TV and radio.<br /><br />My guess is "God Bless America" will soon be banned from MLB ballparks during the 7th inning stretch. <br /><br />"The Pledge of Allegance" is being banned in public places. <br /><br />...Insert countless other examples here... <br /><br />Wake up! Whether you are Christian or not, we are all Americans and this should alarm us. These are OUR constitutional rights being trampled. Just because you are not a Christian doesn't mean you should sit on the sidelines for this one. Something you believe in is probably next.<br /><br />The Dude

 

[12Footer]

Re: The God Gap.

Listen to the Dude, PW. Just because it's religion and not 'gay day parade permits' this time, it's still your cival liberties under assualt as well as mine.