The deed is done!

[QC]

Re: The deed is done!

And none a that makes me liberal. Just clear-headed and pragmatic.

Well . . . You're not a liberal as defined today (Secular Progressive or some other bucket 'O simple-definition) I'd say it may make you honest and concise, but not sure on the other two. I'd say a little too info exclusive for me. Lots more pieces than you have decided to include in your analysis. Can you say that your posts in 2002 would've been 100% similar?

 

[jtexas]

Re: The deed is done!

why aren't you out skiing? or do you take the laptop to the mountain top?

"Can you say that your posts in 2002 would've been 100% similar?"

not sure...I doubted direct Iraqi government involvement in the actual 911 plot, because I was of the opinion that SH would not start a war with the U.S. because he was not stupid enough to believe he could win and because he wasn't a religious fanatic. I didn't doubt the existence of terrorists in Iraq (or Syria, or Palestine, or Afganistan, et. al). I can say that I arrived at my opinion (invasion not justified for reasons previously stated) after the failure to find WMD followed by learning of the shakiness of the evidence of WMD, and I recall posting the theory that SH could have already blown his wad against Israel and the Kurds and whoever else and was probably bluffing about still having WMD in order to maintain his power in the region through intimidation.

I just think it's less of a philosophical question and more of an opinion based on "facts" (and I use that word loosely).

have fun, and don't eat the yellow snow!

 

[Link]

Re: The deed is done!

at the risk of sounding like a broken record:
[rant]
Once again I feel compelled to voice my protest against the aboriginal North Americans for co-opting the term "Native American." I was born in America, that makes me a Native American. If you want a term to distinguish yourselves I don't object; how about Aboriginal North Americans.
[/rant]

it just occured to me...we're raising a generation who won't know the meaning of the term "broken record"...

Good points.. esp the latter..
I was jumping in to give Boomyal a hard time for fun.. I'll let you guys go back at it.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The deed is done!



"Can you say that your posts in 2002 would've been 100% similar?"

not sure...I doubted direct Iraqi government involvement in the actual 911 plot, because I was of the opinion that SH would not start a war with the U.S. because he was not stupid enough to believe he could win and because he wasn't a religious fanatic. I didn't doubt the existence of terrorists in Iraq (or Syria, or Palestine, or Afganistan, et. al). I can say that I arrived at my opinion (invasion not justified for reasons previously stated) after the failure to find WMD followed by learning of the shakiness of the evidence of WMD...

Hind sight is usually 20-20. We have had problems with our inteligence operations since the mid to late 70s when the Democrats and Pres Jimmy C. neutered the CIA et al. and set up the FISA court Libs worship, (I'm not blaming just the Dems, as the whole country allowed it to happen). In a post 9/11 world, if we require "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" before acting: we are all dead ducks. Oh no the 'fear factor'!! SH is not a religious nut: agreed. That said: he was the most blatent enemy of ours that openly supported Islamic terrorism all over the world. His finger prints are all over the 1993 bombing of the World Trade center, (read the court record). It was no accident that Libya laid down after we pulled SH out of the spyder hole and subsequently turned the light on the A Q Kahn network. GW Bush's discription of an "axis of evil" so roundly hammered and sneered at by the Libs and the Western press, was and is right on the money, both when he said it and NOW. North Korea's Kim is not religious either but he is in on most of the trouble we have amoung all these bad actors. Iraq was the most vulnerable, strategic and valuable, (do to oil reserves), of our potential enemies. We easliy took them down, (even though Turkey denied us their help and or access). Should we just hide under our desks and wait for another attack? The Dems think that if we spend lots of tax $ on building up the federal employee labor unions, (of airport security types), that we can be safe. WRONG!!!! Just look at Israel, (a much smaller tighter country then we can ever be and they get hammered all the time). We face two choices: #1 back the Bush Cheney agressive tactic of taking the battle to our enemy, (which I agree with), or #2 the Pelosy tactic of raising taxes to transfer wealth from the productive sector and create massive security projects. That said: after they nuk Seattle, NY, DC, LA, Chicago, etc. we can fight them in our streets, (if Nancy hasn't taken all of our guns). 20-20 hind sight tells us to listen to our enemies. OBL, and the rest of the bad boys think the Iraq is the front lines, why can't liberals believe our enemies? Hitler, Stalin et al stated what they planned to do and generally tried to do it. Liberals are not as good at mind reading as they think they are. My $0.02. Respectfully JR

 

[jtexas]

Re: The deed is done!

yeah, I don't want to open another WMD debate, and maybe history will tell us whether we were mislead (by Bush, Cheney, Blair, etc) - I was convinced of it at first - but now - I just acknowlege the possibility. Still sceptical about whether invading Iraq was warranted, but I don't think the president should tell us everything.

"...The Dems think that if we spend lots of tax $ on building up the federal employee labor unions, (of airport security types)..."

You're probably aware that TSA airport security is paid for in ticket taxes - from the airlines point of view it's way, way better having the government handle security - and I'm not talking from a liability standpoint either. Not sure - I don't think democrats can take credit for the TSA build-up, but it's not really relevant.

"...that we can be safe. WRONG!!!! Just look at Israel"

It's amazing how effective Israel's airport security is, considering they are surrounded by enemies who specialize in terrorism.

" taking the battle to our enemy, "

That works for the enemies we've identified, but in a War on Terror, the Enemy is Terrorists - when you think you've identified them all, you lose.

Sounds like you're saying the best defense is a good offense. That may be, but it's a strategy that can lead to high-scoring games.

[totally irrelevant, but...it still seems kinda funny hearing GWB talk about "axis of evil"...I remember him from back before he was governor, when he was just the guy who traded Sammy Sosa to the Cubs for Harold Baines....]

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The deed is done!

yeah, I don't want to open another WMD debate, and maybe history will tell us whether we were mislead (by Bush, Cheney, Blair, etc) - I was convinced of it at first - but now - I just acknowlege the possibility. Still sceptical about whether invading Iraq was warranted, but I don't think the president should tell us everything.

"...The Dems think that if we spend lots of tax $ on building up the federal employee labor unions, (of airport security types)..."

You're probably aware that TSA airport security is paid for in ticket taxes - from the airlines point of view it's way, way better having the government handle security - and I'm not talking from a liability standpoint either. Not sure - I don't think democrats can take credit for the TSA build-up, but it's not really relevant.

"...that we can be safe. WRONG!!!! Just look at Israel"

It's amazing how effective Israel's airport security is, considering they are surrounded by enemies who specialize in terrorism.

" taking the battle to our enemy, "

That works for the enemies we've identified, but in a War on Terror, the Enemy is Terrorists - when you think you've identified them all, you lose.

Sounds like you're saying the best defense is a good offense. That may be, but it's a strategy that can lead to high-scoring games.

[totally irrelevant, but...it still seems kinda funny hearing GWB talk about "axis of evil"...I remember him from back before he was governor, when he was just the guy who traded Sammy Sosa to the Cubs for Harold Baines....]

My point on WMDs is: we still don't know for sure, (but likely they did not exist in significant amounts), and in the Middle East: we will never have absolute knowledge prior to being forced to make a very tough decision that puts a lot of lives in the balence. A leader (any real leader: liberal or conservative), charged with our collective safety, (which is clearly stated in the Consitiution), must make a gut decision unsing the best possible information and press on. and let the chips fall where they may. Monday morning QBs (with much less information) will scewer any modern day war time president. I know that the security personel are partially paid from ticket taxes. That said: they have many benifits as unionized Government empolyees and if you don't think we will all pay for those inefficientcies out of our pockets: you are dreaming. Second point: the US government is about the most inefficient entity there is. Private companies could always compete for the projects and do them much cheaper, and much better. That is real world experience. Re: Israel, I'm not talking just about airport security. We have a very big country with lots of world interaction. It is impossible to be truly safe from a human threat, (garbage), that wants to die and take inocents with them. You are right: this war on terrorism will likely be a "high scoring game" let's play in their court, rather then here. Remember: they took the first shot. You are correct on the last point too: offense is better then defense in this type of matter. How many hits on USA since 9/11? That little fact speaks for itself. Thanks for the post: a good read. Respectfully JR

 

[crunch]

Re: The deed is done!

It's amazing how effective Israel's airport security is, considering they are surrounded by enemies who specialize in terrorism.

It's amazing how effective Israel's security is "period", considering they allow the "terrorists" to walk among them, and work in their country... I mean, how do you stop a lone person from strapping 5 lbs. of semtex around their waist, then walk to work just like they have for the last 5 years?

 

[QC]

Re: The deed is done!

it still seems kinda funny hearing GWB talk about "axis of evil"...

What's really funny is I always feel uneasy when I use the word evil despite my talent for it . . . Anyway, for me the best thing about the guy is that he openly ackowledges its presence. These terrorist scumbags, who are hard to find, and hard to fight, are the real deal. IMHO, prior to 9/11, we sat around for 40 years and believed they were comic book bad guys. Watching it on the news was fun while it lasted . . .

 

[crunch]

Re: The deed is done!

prior to 9/11, we sat around for 40 years and believed they were comic book bad guys.

Yup, very seldom did they do more than "hi-jack a jet to Cuba", when that got tough they just started blowing them up.

Of course our attention was then switched to "baggage/cargo search" and that stopped.... quick switch to hi-jacking again, but with a twist.

Now that we have security measures in place to (hopefully) stop a 9/11 from happening again, what will their "evil", fertile little minds think up next?

Maybe a dirty bomb? How hard would it be to lay your hands (if you were a gungho terrorist) on 30 or 40 lbs. of highly radioactive waste, some sort of 2 part glue (epoxy comes to mind), and some C-4?

My point is, we can't stop them unless we keep them busy elsewhere until we can eradicate them or re-educate them.... Iraq and Afghanistan is taking care of the keeping them busy part.

 

[QC]

Re: The deed is done!

And crunch just tied this all back up for you guys that aren't paying attention. I don't care if there was a direct connection, I don't care that we haven't found any WMD (although I wish we had, simply to shut up the naysayers). The fact is, we don't get to play guessing games anymore. If you have the potential to supply really bad stuff to really bad guys that are just itching to use it, then you are a threat. If you support bad guys, you are a bad guy. If you think suicide bombers are misunderstood, you too are a bad guy. There is only one label for these people, Evil. They need no understanding, they earn nothing but condemnation. This is why there needs to be common rules that are understood. #1) Killing innocents is murder, killing murderers is heroic.

Also, for those of you who want to add USA to the bad stuff to bad guys list. Like the above, I also don't care about 20/20 hindsight in evaluating that type of issue. Yes, some lessons will be helpful in the future, but the specific issue, almost any issue, needs to be evaluated based on the time and place that the decisions were made. Nothing else is valid concerning those actions, only the info and understanding at the critical moment.

 

[crunch]

Re: The deed is done!

If what techo knows was magnified a million times and rolled down an ants rectum it would sound like a Beebee in a box car - Tacitly approved by jtex for techno

LOL... the orders of magnitude are very explicit on that one.

Happy un-birthday to Ray

 

[jtexas]

Re: The deed is done!

And crunch just tied this all back up for you guys that aren't paying attention. I don't care if there was a direct connection, I don't care that we haven't found any WMD (although I wish we had, simply to shut up the naysayers). The fact is, we don't get to play guessing games anymore. If you have the potential to supply really bad stuff to really bad guys that are just itching to use it, then you are a threat. If you support bad guys, you are a bad guy. If you think suicide bombers are misunderstood, you too are a bad guy.

[smart-ass comment]
in that case I'm skeptical of the decision not to invade Syria, Lebannon, Palestine, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and about half a dozen former Soviet republiks.
[/smart-ass comment]

suicide bombers are fairly easy to understand - they've developed a technique for expressing their feelings....

appropos of nothing, there's a story on this morning's NPR Morning Edition about an elderly Palestinian grandmother-turned-suicide-bomber - so we can stop making fun of TSA for searching old people at airports.

...the specific issue, almost any issue, needs to be evaluated based on the time and place that the decisions were made. Nothing else is valid concerning those actions, only the info and understanding at the critical moment.

Agreed, and unless and until such an evaluation can be made I'll excersize my constitutional right to be skeptical. But I'll make an effort to stop accusing any top American or British government officials of being the bad guys.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The deed is done!



My point is, we can't stop them unless we keep them busy elsewhere until we can eradicate them or re-educate them....

Hey Crunch! Great summary! The only minor point I would pick is the "re-educate" part. I do not think there is much chance of any re-education of those thugs, (they need to visit Allah and see if the garbage about virgins is the real deal or maybe they will get a little heat as a benifit of their conduct, [as I think]). I was in the Securities business for years, (Dean Witter/Morgan Stanley for much of the time), before opening my own little company. I did not know much about Islam prior to 9/11, but I have learned a lot since that time. I am no expert on Islam; and in their eyes, (the seventh century types) I'm an incorigible un-believer that desirves no better treatment then a cockroach. My liberal Seattle friends, or most snooty Europeans (like the French) that think George W Bush is much worse and more threatening then OBL, really don't get it. They would be the first to loose their heads if they ever fell into the custody of those pieces of human garbage. In fact I think W's Christianity, (that I also have in common with him), qualifies Mr. Bush for the majority of the thinly vailed bigotry he gets from the snotty elites in our media, our Democratic party, and our European pals. Thank God, (big G), that we have an imigration problem with mainly hard working Catholics comming across our Southern border looking to work, (as it is very rare that a Christian would intentionally crash a jet airplane into our buildings). Think about those snotty French that don't even consider it news if less then 500 cars are torched every night by the followers of the "religion of piece". Respectfully JR

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The deed is done!



[smart-ass comment]
in that case I'm skeptical of the decision not to invade Syria, Lebannon, Palestine, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and about half a dozen former Soviet republiks.
[/smart-ass comment]

suicide bombers are fairly easy to understand - they've developed a technique for expressing their feelings....

appropos of nothing, there's a story on this morning's NPR Morning Edition about an elderly Palestinian grandmother-turned-suicide-bomber - so we can stop making fun of TSA for searching old people at airports.

One of the things Democrats and Liberals tend to want to do is send our military where their is no real pressing American interest, (at least they raise that argument a lot). I know the Balkins have problems, (and have had problems for 300 years plus or minus). We are still on the ground there as well, yet the New York Times never harps on that one because one of their favorites got us into it. If you think in a critical fashon, (as most successful mechanics certianly do when they are fixing our marine engines); and most boat owners have to also: (to earn the money to pour into the hole in the water). You tend to spend relatively scarce resources where you get the most bang for the buck. The countries listed above have considerations but do not rise to the level of or relative ease of conquest that Iraq did. In the case of North Korea, if Patty Murray, (such a smart women.......), and the rest of the Democrats would let us proceed developing missile defense, we can let the Chinese and South Koreans deal with them. Iran is clearly a big problem, and much more difficult to take on then Iraq was. The poor American President, that has the hair to tackle Iran will be treated very harshly by the same folks around the world pounding Bush right now. In fact, if the worst President in my lifetime: J Carter, (sorry LBJ), had not cut the Shaw off at the knees, we may have a different and much better world today. Carter, like many who love and seem to think just like him, seems to love Tyrants, and seems to hate everything our system stands for. The first time the US was blatently labled the "Great Satan" was at that time, remember, thanks: Jimmy? Profiling: if someone is Muslim profile them and keep your eye on them regardless of age or gender. We do not need to search elderly non Muslims, but NPR is about as politically correct as you get! Why do we spend tax $ on NPR? I guess this is a little more then $.02. Thanks for putting up with my rants. JR

 

[crunch]

Re: The deed is done!

Iran is clearly a big problem, and much more difficult to take on then Iraq was.

Iran would be a pushover, you just have to get away from that old thinking of "you can't win a war without boots on the ground".

For instance, print up $20,000,000,000 worth of Iranian currency and drop it all over the country (think Germany in 1943? )... their economy would be ruined within days, the population would love us, and there would be no casualties. All for probably less than $1,000,000 real US dollars.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The deed is done!

Iran is clearly a big problem, and much more difficult to take on then Iraq was.

Iran would be a pushover, you just have to get away from that old thinking of "you can't win a war without boots on the ground".

For instance, print up $20,000,000,000 worth of Iranian currency and drop it all over the country (think Germany in 1943? )... their economy would be ruined within days, the population would love us, and there would be no casualties. All for probably less than $1,000,000 real US dollars.

Hey Crunch, Could not dissagree more. Sadam thought Iran would be easy after J. Carter cut off the military spares, and look at the horrible result. The Persians are a young, very proud, very tough people with thousands of years of history. The country has three times the size and population of Iraq, and that tactic could be used by anyone, (North Korea does it against us now) would hurt civilized countries much more then Iran. Iran is a MAJOR problem. JR

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: The deed is done!

as it is very rare that a Christian would intentionally crash a jet airplane into our buildings).
Might blow one up though....(Timothy McVeigh)

Here's a newsflash: Being a Christian does not make you superior to those who are not.....

Think about those snotty French that don't even consider it news if less then 500 cars are torched every night by the followers of the "religion of piece".
We had our race riots in the 60's.....
The "burning car syndrome" is very much like that......

Your Liberal Seattle friend.............JK
The good news is that we only have two more years of 'Duhbya'

 

[jtexas]

Re: The deed is done!

We do not need to search elderly non Muslims, but NPR is about as politically correct as you get! Why do we spend tax $ on NPR? I guess this is a little more then $.02. Thanks for putting up with my rants. JR


[smart-ass comment]
your rants aren't that bad of a read, I just think if I go to the trouble of labeling a smart-ass comment as such the least you could do is respond in kind
[/smart-ass comment]

You say PC, I say respectful...any way you look at it, NPR is about as good a source of actual news (and I mean beyond sound bites) as you'll find anywhere.

Excluding any group, even the elderly, from security procedures would create a loophole, a weakness in the system, and I have to believe that somewhere in the world lives a terrorist with enough brains to figure out how to exploit it. Just an opinion.

 

[crunch]

Re: The deed is done!

(North Korea does it against us now)

So does Syria.

would hurt civilized countries much more then Iran.

I don't think so, we could easily make perfect forgeries and Iran would have to honor them or quit trading with their partners... and if it did hurt other countries, well, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The deed is done!

as it is very rare that a Christian would intentionally crash a jet airplane into our buildings).
Might blow one up though....(Timothy McVeigh)

Here's a newsflash: Being a Christian does not make you superior to those who are not.....

Think about those snotty French that don't even consider it news if less then 500 cars are torched every night by the followers of the "religion of piece".
We had our race riots in the 60's.....
The "burning car syndrome" is very much like that......

Your Liberal Seattle friend.............JK
The good news is that we only have two more years of 'Duhbya'