Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

31900 · May 1, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Think about it. Strut, bolts and shaft dissimilar metals? No zinc? Of course you will get corrosion and it will be caused by what you have right there. Nothing to do with other sources. Same applies when the tip of the motor is in the water and not the zinc. As kavika puts it "it all has to be in the same soup".

31900 · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

maj75. After looking at all of this again, you have had some very good advice/education on the technical aspects of corrosion from jimd and others but you need the problem resolved. I think garyN has given you good common sense and consumer legal advice. Study the lot and act. Remember, a jar of honey is sweeter than a bottle of acid and it is always better to take a soft approach albeit that it takes a little longer. People and companies do want to help if they can but representatives have the job of cost minimisation and at first will try to slip out from under. Be nice to them. You might even get them on your side. Threats and lawyers close doors.

maj75 · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by Adam1: [QB] maj75. Remember, a jar of honey is sweeter than a bottle of acid and it is always better to take a soft approach albeit that it takes a little longer. People and companies do want to help if they can but representatives have the job of cost minimisation and at first will try to slip out from under. Be nice to them. I been as nice as I can, under the circumstances. How would you feel if you had new engines ($27,000)that failed after 5 months in the water, and the manufacturer told you they would not honor their warrranty, and if you want to use the boat, give us another $9000 for parts which will go bad in another 5 months? Meanwhile you are paying $350 a month to keep a boat in a slip, and $200 everytime the boat has to come out of the water to be looked at by someone? You obviously can't USE the boat (which just had the interior redone) for anything. When the manufacturer tells you we don't know why the engines failed, but it isn't covered anyway? I got their FINAL WORD, no warranty, no repair. Would you still "be nice"?

garyN · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Look Being Nice is not the same as being powerless. As for the MFG your best approach is to keep up your demand for some accomidation - and let them know that you will be all over these web boards telling your experience. But I think your real issue is to go afte the guy who sold and mounted your engins. No way should they have allow the install to keep your engins in the water. They were negligent and that has little to do thiw the MFG warranty. Most of the time, when you go after a small guy like this - you get results because it is less expensive to do your repair than pay the legal fees. If you get this repair done you may be able to mount anouther small zink on the fin - I have seen it done before and it makes some sense in your situation. The guy who sold you these engines may also have exceeded the boat mfg's design recomendation for transome weight. Again, neglignece. You can will this case and get your legal fees back if the dealer gave you a written contact with an attorney's fee clause? What type and mfg is your boat? Gary N

maj75 · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

But I think your real issue is to go afte the guy who sold and mounted your engins. No way should they have allow the install to keep your engins in the water. They were negligent and that has little to do thiw the MFG warranty. What authority do you have for this statement? I have seen numerous installations, on old boats and new, where the tips of the lower units touch the water when trimmed-up. In fact, the original 1989 Evinrudes were slightly in the water when trimmed-up and they never had corrosion damage on them and I used them until March 2004. Suzuki selected the dealer and paid for the installation as part of the Boat Show promotion. As I have stated repeatedly, the engines are apparently not bonded internally to the main zincs. They should be according to Suzuki's advertising and good design practice. Unless the installer failed to connect some internal connection, the engines came that way from Suzuki. I don't care who screwed up, Suzuki, or the dealer. I don't think that I am unreasonable in expecting Suzuki to stand behind its product and its dealer. They should take care of their customer, and sort out the fault between themselves.

garyN · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

First: You are really doing yourself a dis-service by continuing to try to explain "why" your engines failed and comparing them to your "old" engines. It may well be that the previous engines had the drain plug in a differnen (slightly higher) location - so simply being in the water was not the the problem. I looked at a pair of Suzuki engines over the weekend the the drain plug is recessed. If this is stainless (and we all know it is) then your engines didn't need anything else but some salt water and air to rot. The point is that - this type of insallation (for salt water use) is not up to standards. How do we know - look no further than the exact problem you have experienced. It could not, would not have happened if the engines were up another inch (and that may have been adjustable), I have seen good shops go to great lenghts to raise the engines up to clear the water - sometimes requring a longer/ or shorter shaft length to compensate. Who decided what length shaft your boat needed? I think they were wrong. Did they sell you a "show special" that was not really right for your boat? Maybe, because you were accustomed to it you didn't complain that the eingines did not come all the way up - but I would have (and you would now if they are repaired. Ask how it can be done and note that it is not impossible to raise a transom. My authority for the statement? comes from both State and federal law. A unhappy consumer of a "product" can sue the mfg. or anyone in the "stream of commerce" for a defect. You are not required to sue the MFG. The Negligence issue likely related solely to the insatller - so go after them and add the warranty item. That way they have to contact Suzuki and tell them they got sued for selling the engines - ask Suzuki to indemnify them and then they get told by Suzuki that "corrosion isn't covered". Makes more sense when they arn't telling you what you don't want to hear! Right. I am sure you will find support for this. also, check very carefully your boat design specs - what was the max HP (then figure what weight that would be in two strokes and compare to the 4's. All the informatio you gave them about your boat feated a duty to do the job correctly. The installer has a duty to do a commercially acceptable job (check around with others) . Maybe, for a trailer boat this type of shoddy install would be OK - but not for keeping wet in salt. Hope this helps. Gary N

maj75 · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

I need a good faith basis for making a claim. It's not a simple as going to court and saying my engines don't work anymore and the installer/manufacturer should pay. I need to alledge facts as to what each did wrong. I think I know what the manufacturer may have done wrong, I don't yet know about the installer. If the old engines touched the water, and the new one do too. why would you assume there was "negligence" in the installation? The Suzuki's are 225 hp, 25" shafts (they don't come shorter) and they are the same size as the original engines. (They do weigh more) I have seen too many boats with the engines touching the water to accept that the fact that if the engines touch the water, the installation is "negligence." (From a legal argument perspective, the fact that the old engines touched the water would be "evidence" that the new engines were not negligently installed) That was the statement that I asked your authority for. If you have any, I would be glad to see it and use it against the installing dealer. I agree that both installer and manufacturer need to be named in the lawsuit. Raise a transom? Why, to get engines out of the water that they are supposed to survive in? What happens when god forbid, I need to put the engines in the water to move the boat? The location and composition of the drainplug are not determined by the installer. They were the choice of Suzuki. If they put it in the most likely spot to be submerged, then maybe they "chose poorly." I think that you have ignored the problem created by the engines not being bonded to the main zincs. Whoever is responsible for this fact should be responsible for the repairs/replacement. If it was the installer failing to connect something, then it's on him. If it came that way from the manufacturer, then it's on Suzuki. If the bonding worked, then the engines would have had no damage and I would only be replacing zincs instead of lower units. As for what to do after this is over, I will be looking to this site for suggestions for different engines. Suzuki will not be on the boat when this is over.

HeadHunt · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Been reading this thread with alot of interest. Have you considered hiring a maritime attorney? A good one should have experience in this area. HeadHunt

HeadHunt · May 2, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Send an e-mail to this guy. He is in Florida and has a ton of experience dealing with boat and engine manufacturers. I sent him a link to this thread so he could get up to speed. HeadHunt Perry@AdmiraltyLawyers.com

Nos4r2 · May 3, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Did the dealer or Suzuki at ANY TIME or in any literature you were given on purchase tell you that your engines had to be tilted fully out of the water to avoid excessive corrosion to the L/U's in salt water? Did the dealer or manufacturer at any time or in any literature provided at any time as part of the sale say that the zincs had to be kept submerged to avoid excessive corrosion? Did the dealer or manufacturer at any time or in any literature provided at any time imply that these engines were designed to be run in salt water with normal wear and tear? whether the zincs were properly attached or not is immaterial. They have sold you a product which is clearly not fit for the purpose it was intended for. The cause is immaterial-just the fact that it happened. If it's any help here's a pic of a 50hp merc blueband L/u I have for spares. It sat tilted for 20 years worth of summers with the skeg tip in the water on the south coast of England in Poole harbour. Water hasn't penetrated through the gear casing and the box is fine,though the skeg tip and prop surround have corroded away. You can clearly see where the waterline was.

The other damage is from using a 3lb lump hammer to separate the frozen leg from the siezed junker it came from.

bernieb · May 3, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Some tech.info here. http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=307

maj75 · May 3, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by Nos4r2: [QB] Did the dealer or Suzuki at ANY TIME or in any literature you were given on purchase tell you that your engines had to be tilted fully out of the water to avoid excessive corrosion to the L/U's in salt water? NO Did the dealer or manufacturer at any time or in any literature provided at any time as part of the sale say that the zincs had to be kept submerged to avoid excessive corrosion? ONLY THE MAIN ZINCS Did the dealer or manufacturer at any time or in any literature provided at any time imply that these engines were designed to be run in salt water with normal wear and tear? YES, SEE THEIR "CORROSION PROTECTION" SECTION OF THEIR WEB SITE AND BROCHURE. whether the zincs were properly attached or not is immaterial. They have sold you a product which is clearly not fit for the purpose it was intended for. The cause is immaterial-just the fact that it happened. THANKS

maj75 · May 3, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by bernieb: Some tech.info here. http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=307

Maybe i should forward this to Suzuki

garyN · May 3, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

In salt water your engine should "never" be partially submerged as your was. This was the dealers responsibilty to tell you, and if you insisted you wanted it that way he should have had you sign a waiver stating they informed you Not to do it and you assumed the risk. The more you go on about this being a defect with Suzuki the more I wonder why you have not told us the make and model of your boat and the transome rating. Personally I think you got sold the wrong set up. I did a survey in my harbor (ocenside, ca) yesterday and I find that some outboard do touch and that many of these owners put a boot or fresh water sock over the lower unit. I tried to get the owner's manual for your engine but Susuki does not keep it on line. Look at it closely, your engine have a very poor tilt angle (I think). I went on-line and looked for some guidence for you: at the Stingray boat site they have the following statement regarding the boats they sell: "How can I protect my engine against corrosion? The leading cause of corrosion damage is galvanic corrosion, the electrochemical interaction between different metals. It is most hazardous where lower units, both outboard and stern drive, are immersed in salt water, brackish water, and many inland waters with high conductivity caused by pollution. The corrosion reaction occurs when electrons flow between dissimilar metals connected or grounded through water. In the process, one of the two metals is eaten away. This damaging corrosion can be eliminated by providing a sacrificial metal-zinc or aluminum, which will preferentially corrode to protect the lower unit, or by installing a Quicksilver MerCathode® system to your boat. Sacrificial anodes are available in several forms. MerCruiser stern drives and most Mercury, Mariner, and Force outboards utilize a trim tab on the antiventilation plate. Stern drives have additional anodes mounted at the outer transom plate. A transom-mounted anode kit is available to provide additional protection, if deemed necessary. The anodes' main purpose is for corrosion protection. By their very nature, they deteriorate rapidly and must, therefore, be constantly inspected and regularly replaced. THE ENGINE SHOULD NOT BE PARTIALLY TILTED OUT OF THE WATER (my enphisis added) The engine should not be partially tilted out of the water. If the anode is out of the water, protection for the parts still in the water is lost. Anodes are never to be painted, nor should the area under the anode be painted, as the ground must be maintained. Newer outboards and stern drives will be discontinuing using the trim tab as a sacrificial anode. Anodic protection will be found in other locations. garyn

garyN · May 3, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

In salt water your engine should "never" be partially submerged as your was. This was the dealers responsibilty to tell you, and if you insisted you wanted it that way he should have had you sign a waiver stating they informed you Not to do it and you assumed the risk. The more you go on about this being a defect with Suzuki the more I wonder why you have not told us the make and model of your boat and the transome rating. Personally I think you got sold the wrong set up. I did a survey in my harbor (ocenside, ca) yesterday and I find that some outboard do touch and that many of these owners put a boot or fresh water sock over the lower unit. I tried to get the owner's manual for your engine but Susuki does not keep it on line. Look at it closely, your engine have a very poor tilt angle (I think). I went on-line and looked for some guidence for you: at the Stingray boat site they have the following statement regarding the boats they sell: "How can I protect my engine against corrosion? The leading cause of corrosion damage is galvanic corrosion, the electrochemical interaction between different metals. It is most hazardous where lower units, both outboard and stern drive, are immersed in salt water, brackish water, and many inland waters with high conductivity caused by pollution. The corrosion reaction occurs when electrons flow between dissimilar metals connected or grounded through water. In the process, one of the two metals is eaten away. This damaging corrosion can be eliminated by providing a sacrificial metal-zinc or aluminum, which will preferentially corrode to protect the lower unit, or by installing a Quicksilver MerCathode® system to your boat. Sacrificial anodes are available in several forms. MerCruiser stern drives and most Mercury, Mariner, and Force outboards utilize a trim tab on the antiventilation plate. Stern drives have additional anodes mounted at the outer transom plate. A transom-mounted anode kit is available to provide additional protection, if deemed necessary. The anodes' main purpose is for corrosion protection. By their very nature, they deteriorate rapidly and must, therefore, be constantly inspected and regularly replaced. THE ENGINE SHOULD NOT BE PARTIALLY TILTED OUT OF THE WATER (my enphisis added) The engine should not be partially tilted out of the water. If the anode is out of the water, protection for the parts still in the water is lost. Anodes are never to be painted, nor should the area under the anode be painted, as the ground must be maintained. Newer outboards and stern drives will be discontinuing using the trim tab as a sacrificial anode. Anodic protection will be found in other locations. garyn

garyN · May 3, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

as additional proof that it negligent to mount engins so they cannot clear the water, here is what it says on the Mercury web site. What precautions should I take when operating my engine in Salt Water or Polluted Water? We recommend that you flush the internal water passages of your outboard with freshwater after each use in salt or polluted water. This will prevent a buildup of deposits from clogging the water passages. If you keep your boat moored in the water, always tilt the outboard so the gear case is completely out of the water (except in freezing temperature) when not in use. Maj75 I don't think you will find anyone who says mounting with engines stuck in salt water is good or OK. Sure you see it often - but that is not a quality install by a certified dealer (I hope). I think Suzuki is trying to point you in the right direction - do get this dealer and fix this problem. It may be that your boat can only have a single 4 stroke, and be mounted properly. Don't know cause I don't know what you mounted these on. GaryN

maj75 · May 4, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

I had provided the information you requested: Pursuit 2800, 30 ft long, 10 ft beam, 450 hp rating. Originally came with 225 Evinrudes that did not tilt out of the water and survived for 15 years. EVEN IF I HAD NOT TILTED THE ENGINES OUT OF THE WATER, THEY DO NOT HAVE SUFFICENT CORROSION PROTECTION AND WOULD HAVE CORRODED ANYWAY! In tropical waters, no dealer would EVER tell you to leave the engines trimmed down. Your $600 stainless props would be ruined in no time. I confirmed this with the Suzuki/Yamaha dealer yesterday. We looked at a dozen Yamaha lower units that were slightly in the water and NONE were corroded. I was certainly not told this by the installing dealer. They trimmed the engines up themselves when the boat was at their dock for its numerous repairs.

HeadHunt · May 11, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Please keep us posted on the developments. Thanks HeadHunt

BLACKSHEEP1 · May 14, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

maj75- I am a Suzuki dealer in New York and heard of the problems you are having with your Suzuki engines. I have sold over 30 Suzuki V-6 Fourstrokes so far, and havent had any troubles....so obviously when I came across your post,I of course am concerned. So if you could answer some questions, so I can take any precautions if neccessary. 1.What kind of boat do you have? ( already answered) 2.what type of electronics are you running on your boat? 3.Is your bottom painted, and if so what type of bottom paint are you using? 4.Is there a reason why you would leave the motors in the down position when you are not using the boat, as opposed to trimming the out of the water? Is your dock slip not big enough or do Out of all the manufactureres, Suzuki engines tilts the highest..and should be completely out of the water.Is your engine mounted on the transom or on a brackett? If on a brackett, is it aluminum or stainless? 5.It seems that the boat is sitting heavy is the back, and thats why the skeg may be sitting lower in the water......is there a reason that you have not added some additonal weight to the front of the boat to compensate for the weight of the motors? 8. Is your local dealer working with you to help resolve your issues & to help explain what may have caused this? This seems like a very one sided story and I feel that there has to be more details to this matter(although I could be wrong) 9. Has a Suzuki Tech Rep(factory personel) come out to take a look at this. If not, why???? 10. Have you hit bottom with your engine because this could cause the paint to chip and would break the bond 11.Ground to motor(gearcase) with bolt would complete a ground. Also, the zinc can not work if it is not in the water. 12. Are you aware that you can add a Merc ball zinc on the bolt....this would give you extra protection 13.All Suzuki wires are bonded, but unfortunately saltwater gets everywhere. 14.There are 6 zincs in the powerhead, have you checked those to see what type of condition they are in? I am just trying to find out all of the particulars on this story. To me, it seems like there is some pertinent missing information. We would like to see some pictures and offer our help with you in this matter............If you would like please call us (631)226-9739 and identify yourself as the Iboats guy and I will let you speak the the head mechanic here, or you may email us at jensenmarine@aol.com.Our head mechanic has been working on Suzuki Engines for almost 30 years.....Not once, has he heard of any type of siuation like this.

HeadHunt · May 15, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Now there's an offer from someone wanting to help that does not have a dog in the fight. HeadHunt

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