Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

maj75 · Apr 25, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by Steamboat: I agree with KanadaKid on the approach through warranty but if you decide to follow the lawsuit direction, get both a marine surveyor and a licensed profesional electrical engineer or a forensic engineer (someone trained and certified to determine what went wrong). Already taken care of. See opinions obtained above. Boat wiring is not source, neither is dock. These guys (marine electrician) are the people recommended by the Marine Surveyor, and do all the corrosion work for marine surveyors in this area. Everyone I have talked to about the problem (dealer, distributor, repair shop, surveyors and attorneys) has immediately recommended this company. They have been in business 50 years. I accept their opinion. I did not prejudice their opinion in any way. I asked them to look at the boat and determine why the lower units had disintegrated. They could have blamed the install, the wiring in the boat, the dock or something else. Their opinion is what it is. No bottom paint on lower units. These individuals will carry far more weight in a legal battle than a master marine electrician.

At this point I disagree. The guys who specialize in diagnosing and repairing these problems have more credibility than a "hired gun" who never fixed anything in his life. Since Suzuki has come forward with nothing other than "its not covered, because we don't cover corrosion", I'm not that concerned. As another poster said, I have the lower units that are junk after 5 months in the water. I have an "expert" opinion that says that the engines are not properly bonded to the main zinc. The burden is now on Suzuki to establish that there was some other reason for this problem. In order to win their case, Suzuki will have to prove that this is "normal" and that if this happened, the engines were fit to use in salt water. If they blame the installation, they may still be on the hook as Suzuki "paid" for the install as part of the promotion at the Boat Show where installation was covered by Suzuki in the price of the motors. At this point the lower units speak for themselves.

Kanadakid · Apr 25, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Major this is very simple from here. A certified letter to: Mr. Rick Suzuki President of Operations American Suzuki Motor Corpoation of America 3251 E. Imperial Hwy. Brea, CA 92821-6795 I would be very direct about how dissapponited I have been at their response to your problem. Tell him that you will give them one last chance to resolve this issue or you will seek legal remedy. It is you belief that their customer service has tried to pass the buck rather than rectify this horrible situation. You will need ot hear from them within 10 days or you seek recovery of all of you expenses, costs and professional fees. Major,,,,,If they come back in writting and say...the cause was such and such. You will need to respond back in writting and request written proof of the cause. If they don't provide you with written testimony / proof, they are dead !!!! It is somewhat of a chess game , by putting things to writting you are chackmating them. Go get EM.........they should have the letter by Wednesday......back on the water in 15 days. They don't have a choice. Kid

maj75 · Apr 25, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Thanks for the encouragement. Suzuki's"official" position is that since they don't cover corrosion, the cause doesn't really matter. They admit they do not know what caused the corrosion. At this point, I'm the only one who has obtained a diagnosis of the problem. As soon as I have the written report from the electrician, I will be forwarding that letter through the Suzuki channels as well as directly to Mr. Suzuki. The letter will come from my attorney.

Kanadakid · Apr 25, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Oh,That's even better. If they show a single OB engine being used in salt water or mention that the engine can be used in salt water, there is an implied warranty. That engine needs to perform as an engine for a certain amount of time or else they can't make the claim it is an outboard engine. The same would apply if i sold you a used car and after 25 days the transmission dropped out of it...or failed. I would be responsible because i claimed that I sold you an automobile. Unless I have an endorsed document that says I sold you the car "As IS" It has to perform that way for XXXX amount of time. Suzuki needs to get out of the Marine engine business if they don't stand behind their products. I really wish you the best. I would send a letter to the company .....not from a Lawyer. Once a lawyer sends them a letter, they may treat this as a legal issue and clam up. You can always have a lawyer send a letter. I would hold that card for a bit longer. give Mr. Suzuki a chance to hear and help you pain. It will look better to a judge if you tried all reasonable avenues. Hope this Helps, Kid

DJ · Apr 25, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Suzuki needs to get out of the Marine engine business if they don't stand behind their products.

I wouldn't expect much. My experience was not good. Have solice in knowing that my experience with Honda was even worse and all I wanted was a part, that I was paying for.

notinbig · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

These companies have an obligation to take care of this. I had a simialar problem, and just kept taking it one step higher when someone wouldn't help me. Take it till you talk to the manager, GM, owner. The owner of the marina will want to know you will be bad mouthing their marina and their products. They need to take responsablity, and they will when you find the right person.

clanton · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Has a Suz rep looked at these engines?

garyN · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

From one who has been through it. One item you need to understand - it is not your job to tell Suzuki "why" the engines are defective. I often see really good intentioned people giving way too much information. This allows the MFG to pass the buck and tell you that you are wrong. You really don't know what caused your problem. It could be that the batch of alloy used on your engine was mixed wrong on a Monday. Or, it could be somthing wrong with the coating. I went to the Suzuki web site and they spend a great deal of time showing how they designed these engins to work in salt water. Your's didn't and that is a warranty issue. Back off trying to be some "expert" or hiring an expert (save that for the court house you will hopefully avoid). You have a defect - plain and simple and the MFG should address it by having an authorized dealer look at it and interact with teh zone rep and USA customer service. My point is that, you have a customer service issue - you do have a warranty and I don't care how much they say corrosion is not covered - it is. They have both implied and express warranties on these engins, and I would let them know and see the dialoge going on this forum. A good outcome posted by you would be the best advertising Suzuki could get. I would demand the engines be replaced with new - offer to pay a small fee if necessary, this is from your dealer, who should get Suzuki to back him up. If they will not do anyathing then try to get into your municipal claims court, get them served, also sue the dealer who sold it to you and serve him. That will get action as Suzuki will then have to spend money. Remember - be polite and calm -keep asking and get them to put things in writing. Some where in that company you will find someone who understand customer service and will get you relief. Gary N

maj75 · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by clanton: Has a Suz rep looked at these engines?

Only the "authorized dealer". The Suzuki rep requested photos to be e-mailed to him. He has never physically looked at the boat.

maj75 · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by garyN: From one who has been through it. One item you need to understand - it is not your job to tell Suzuki "why" the engines are defective. I often see really good intentioned people giving way too much information. This allows the MFG to pass the buck and tell you that you are wrong. You really don't know what caused your problem. It could be that the batch of alloy used on your engine was mixed wrong on a Monday. Or, it could be somthing wrong with the coating. I went to the Suzuki web site and they spend a great deal of time showing how they designed these engins to work in salt water. Your's didn't and that is a warranty issue. AGREED! Back off trying to be some "expert" or hiring an expert (save that for the court house you will hopefully avoid). I only hired someone to tell me what went wrong with the engines and why. I needed to know if it was something wrong at the municipal dock which was Suzuki's theory. You have a defect - plain and simple and the MFG should address it by having an authorized dealer look at it and interact with teh zone rep and USA customer service. My point is that, you have a customer service issue - you do have a warranty and I don't care how much they say corrosion is not covered - it is. They have both implied and express warranties on these engins, and I would let them know and see the dialoge going on this forum. I couldn't agree more, however Suzuki doesn't... I have gotten the "final word" from their customer service: "we don't cover corrosion and if you can't accept that, that's your problem." They even tried to shift responsibility to the repairing dealer by saying I could always go to another dealer for another opinion, implying that my dealer did not fight hard enough for me. I know the guys at the repair shop, and nothing could be further from the truth. I told them how Suzuki was trying to throw them under the bus and get me mad at them instead of Suzuki. A good outcome posted by you would be the best advertising Suzuki could get. I would demand the engines be replaced with new - offer to pay a small fee if necessary, this is from your dealer, who should get Suzuki to back him up. See above. He is also a Yamaha dealer, which at this point is what will be on my boat when this ordeal is over. If they will not do anyathing then try to get into your municipal claims court, get them served, also sue the dealer who sold it to you and serve him. Limit of recovery there is $15,000. That won't cover half the damages. Engines were $28,000 plus $4000 I paid the dealer for up-grades to the steering, guages, and a Garmin 2010 install. I agree that I will have to file the complaint against both Suzuki and the dealer who did the install, to limit the inevitable finger pointing by Suzuki at the dealer. That will get action as Suzuki will then have to spend money. Remember - be polite and calm -keep asking and get them to put things in writing. Some where in that company you will find someone who understand customer service and will get you relief. I wish, I will try to work through their "system" and provide my report of the cause of the problem to both the dealer and customer service departments, but after speaking to them, I really have no hope. Gary N

clanton · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

I would think that the Suz rep would want to look at the engines. The dealer should be smart enough to use a manual to insure correct installation. Dealer should be on top of this. You should also have the zincs checked in the engine block/head. There is also a yearly maintenance requirement on the gearcase propshaft bearing carrier.

garyN · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Maj75 Your points are well taken - however I still think you are going down the wrong path trying to know what the problem is - and ignoring others. Who cares if the marina is "hot". Your engins failed while being used in the manner they were designed for. Some defect is present and your state law should protect you (the waiver in the warranty should be void as being a violation of public policy). Most states do not allow this type of blanket waiver. Again, stop stating you problem is corrosion - it is not - your problem is the engines are defective because they do not run. The corrosion is secondary to the defect. I think your defect is in the protective coating on the engines. For example, on the suzuki web site it says the following: How does Suzuki fight saltwater corrosion? "Suzuki uses a four-part basic system to fight the effects of saltwater corrosion, beginning with the use of high-grade aluminum alloys for the engine castings. Next comes the three-part surface treatment that begins with a thorough chemical cleaning of the casting to eliminate anything that might prevent the adhesion of the surface coatings. After the chemical cleaning, the parts are submerged in an electrified bath of chromium oxide. The bath changes the make-up of the casting's surface and creates an invisible barrier that literally becomes a part of the casting. An extremely hard but resilient epoxy resin primer is baked on. Finally, the castings are given a final coat of urethane marine grade paint. This paint cures to a tough, yet lustrous finish, completely sealing the engine from the saltwater environment." I think you may have engins that were not treated properly by some subcontractor of Suzuki. Since you have so much money involved it might be well worth you while to have the metals checked. Get somone at your local university to do a test on the alloy. Suzuki says it is treated to be super hard - I wonder if it is? Of course your main problem is that they are treating you like crap - and you don't deserve it. Buying Suzuki should not have been a crap shoot. What would it cost to repair/replace the bottom ends and the damage with new castings, gears and etc? Maybe your dealer would consider doing that under warranty and let him fight with Suzuki INC? If you do sue, and I suspect you will, your state law will allow a recovery for atty fees and costs . Look for an agressive Lemon Law lawyer who want to take on this case (most will not because they will actually have to go to court) and not arbitration. Good luck and keep posting on this and other sites as Suzuki deserve to have this information known by prospective buyers. Gary N

garyN · Apr 27, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Did you notice the statement that I quoted from the Suzuki web site where it says "the engine is completely sealed from the saltwater environemnt"? Well your certainly was not - you stated your engines had a "hole" that allowed the water to enter the inside of your gears" This is how you argue - they say all water is "sealed out" and your isn't. I know it seems obscure - but the difference is important as you are no longer arguing about just the corrosion but - more importantly - pointing out an express failure of your engine to comply with the warranty and design, since it did not "seal out" the water. How did the hole get there? Because the "protection" on your engines was defective and that I think you can prove. Please don't take this wrong, I have never seen your promlem firsthand - but either will any lawyer or customer service rep (they simply will not let you being these engines through the metal detector in the court house) . I really think you should add this as your alternative argument. If you can switch the burden to Suzuki to provide you with proof your engines were properly treated, painted and coated - (a lawyer can do this in discovery and who knows what you will discover) you will be on the way to a ruling in your favor. Pay the lawyer up front and let him or her get the fees back. I would not want to be the attorney hired by Suzuki to defend this - and you can make it expensive for them since most of the papers will be in Japan (I think - or is it China?) Good luck

maj75 · Apr 28, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by garyN: Did you notice the statement that I quoted from the Suzuki web site where it says "the engine is completely sealed from the saltwater environemnt"? Well your certainly was not - you stated your engines had a "hole" that allowed the water to enter the inside of your gears" This is how you argue - they say all water is "sealed out" and your isn't. I know it seems obscure - but the difference is important as you are no longer arguing about just the corrosion but - more importantly - pointing out an express failure of your engine to comply with the warranty and design, since it did not "seal out" the water. How did the hole get there? Because the "protection" on your engines was defective and that I think you can prove. Please don't take this wrong, I have never seen your promlem firsthand - but either will any lawyer or customer service rep (they simply will not let you being these engines through the metal detector in the court house) . I really think you should add this as your alternative argument. If you can switch the burden to Suzuki to provide you with proof your engines were properly treated, painted and coated - (a lawyer can do this in discovery and who knows what you will discover) you will be on the way to a ruling in your favor. Pay the lawyer up front and let him or her get the fees back. I would not want to be the attorney hired by Suzuki to defend this - and you can make it expensive for them since most of the papers will be in Japan (I think - or is it China?) Good luck

HOPE YOU ARE ON THE JURY

31900 · Apr 29, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

There has a lot been said but one principle seems to have been touched on and forgotten. Electrons only move when there is a circuit. Salt water as an electrolite is a connector but by itself not a circuit. Current will not flow unless the dissimilar metals are somehow connected. That means metal1 to water, to metal2, to metal1. Even if, through the water from boat to boat, there was some sort of connection, that would constitute a series of cells as in a battery but there is still no contact across the battery terminals until there is a return path to make the circuit and thus no current flow. That would have to be through a connection to something else such as the dock. Even then, a boat being in the circuit but not connected to the dock could be still be involved in an effect such as we use in electroplating where the current transfers metal.This would be from boat to boat with a return path to the boats that are connected by metal or electrical earths on the dock. The boats in between could suffer. But they too would have to have 2 dissimilar metals in the water thus forming a voltaic cell to be involved in a major way. In this case I understand the boat was not connected to the dock. There was no external circuit that we know of thus unless we have wet salty ropes to the dock or another boat alongside,we must think about the boat alone. Was it metal? Good conductor good circuit? Skeg, water, hull, motor,skeg = circuit. No? Anchor chain wet rope, wet boat? Possibilities. The sacrificial anodes cannot work unless they are submerged as discussed. The tips or skeggs are often stripped of paint etc as they are dragged through sand in shallow water. It only take a small amount of coating to be removed to complete an electric circuit. Maybe it is as simple as that. Skeg in water, some coating removed, circuit complete through wet salty ropes, metal hull or wet salty deck no anode in the circuit... The motors would be better off down. Keep those anodes wet or the motor dry. But then I am just an electrical man. Good Luck.

maj75 · Apr 29, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

Originally posted by Adam1: There has a lot been said but one principle seems to have been touched on and forgotten. Electrons only move when there is a circuit. Salt water as an electrolite is a connector but by itself not a circuit. Current will not flow unless the dissimilar metals are somehow connected. That means metal1 to water, to metal2, to metal1. Even if, through the water from boat to boat, there was some sort of connection, that would constitute a series of cells as in a battery but there is still no contact across the battery terminals until there is a return path to make the circuit and thus no current flow. That would have to be through a connection to something else such as the dock. Even then, a boat being in the circuit but not connected to the dock could be still be involved in an effect such as we use in electroplating where the current transfers metal.This would be from boat to boat with a return path to the boats that are connected by metal or electrical earths on the dock. The boats in between could suffer. But they too would have to have 2 dissimilar metals in the water thus forming a voltaic cell to be involved in a major way. In this case I understand the boat was not connected to the dock. There was no external circuit that we know of thus unless we have wet salty ropes to the dock or another boat alongside,we must think about the boat alone. Was it metal? Good conductor good circuit? Skeg, water, hull, motor,skeg = circuit. No? Anchor chain wet rope, wet boat? Possibilities. The sacrificial anodes cannot work unless they are submerged as discussed. The tips or skeggs are often stripped of paint etc as they are dragged through sand in shallow water. It only take a small amount of coating to be removed to complete an electric circuit. Maybe it is as simple as that. Skeg in water, some coating removed, circuit complete through wet salty ropes, metal hull or wet salty deck no anode in the circuit... The motors would be better off down. Keep those anodes wet or the motor dry. But then I am just an electrical man. Good Luck.

Even with the motors down, the problem is not solved. Because the engine is not bonded to the main zinc on the motor bracket, the engine has less than half the galvanic protection it should. Granted, The gearcases might have taken longer to dissolve, (10 months instead of 5)but in the end, I would still have two ruined gear cases. Doesn't galvanic corrosion create its own current? The corrosion occurred next to the drain plugs for the gearcase. I assume the plug and the gearcase are dissimilar metal. Maybe that was the source of the corrosion?

31900 · Apr 29, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

It is the current that causes the corrosion. The drain plug and gearcase are of dissimilar metals. Add salt water and you have a voltaic cell. Electrons flow from housing through the water to the plug. With the current molecules of the case metal dislodge or are turned to a gas and could end up who knows where. Introduce the sacrificial anode into the equation and the zinc in that, provided it is in good electrical contact with the housing and not painted, forms a far better cell and thus the zinc current path is preferred with majority of the corrosion or erosion taking place at the anode. As I said, the anode can only work if it is in the water.

bigbrownbuku · Apr 30, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

zincs have area affect. i always tell my customers to leave their drive trimmed full down to avoid the above failure. yamaha and honda kickers were classic for that failure on blow boats because they always sat fully tilted.

BillP · May 1, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

I lived aboard in marinas for 10+ yrs and saw all kinds of electrolysis problems. First thing is get another "electrical expert" because yours is giving wrong info. Example: I had 1/2" dia strut bolts go bad in 3 months from electrolysis from "other" sources. It was a project boat that had no motor, electrical system or shore power. The strut had no zincs either. It was a mistake on my part...I installed the strut and shaft with boat in water using scuba gear and forgot to add the shaft zinc. It almost sunk the boat.

kavika · May 1, 2005

Re: Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

How about miss-application. If the trim of the boat is correct the lower end will be out of the water. With heavy 4 strokes installed on a boat designed for 2 strokes is she down by the stern? Your engines are in a soup of electrons/ions in salt water. Unless the zincs are in the same soup as the bottom end they will not sacrifice. Who installed the engines? The dealer may have the first line of liability. Not all the outboards on my dock have their engine tips in the water. That is why I do not have an I/O. Good luck

Suzuki 4-Stroke Corrosion Disaster

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