Restoring childhood boat. A 1972 Ranger. Help needed (pictures).

[artfan1]

OK, I would like to officially join the I hate grinding fiberglass club. This part is, without a doubt, the most miserable part of the process so far. For me, the part that I have the most trouble with is having to retrain myself to work with limited visibility and mobility. I havent experienced any itchiness so far because I am so well covered in Tyvek, respirator and gloves but inside of my encapsulated space it looks like it snowed heavily.:smow: I just keep thinking of next phase where I get to play with the new materials.

I still have lots to do but I wanted to check on a couple of technical points.
What exactly is my goal here? I mean, beyond the part where I remove the grungy, dirty fiberglass and grind down the seams and corners from tabbing, technically what is the required point where a surface is prepared?

Please note, I am NOT asking this because I am wanting to rush, or because I am trying to cut corners. I am asking this so I know how perfect all areas of the surface have to be.

Here are some examples of what I am wondering about. (Sorry I dont have any photos to go along with these. Difficult to do at this stage).

1)- The floor of the hull has a layer of chopped strand. And yes in many areas, it is porous and dirty. I know that all has to go. But in large areas, once I start to sand it, the area becomes very smooth and clean although you can still see the light lines of the chopper strand. Should I remove all trace of this?

2)- Just like the floor is covered with chopped strand, the sides are covered with a layer of roving. Maybe that roving is part of the hulls structure, I don't know but because it's dimpled it's full of that creamy white stuff. I am grinding it down to the point where it is flat and all of the creamy white material is gone. Do I remove all traces of the roving even after its smooth and clean? Some areas its hard to tell if I am seeing the fibers from the hull or if its roving.

3)- Areas above the hump where the bottom meets the side (the chine?). It dips down before it meets the side creating a small gutter were epoxy pooled rather thick. Once the old layer has been removed I can see this pool of epoxy, but its clean and clear of any dirt or pits. Can this be left there or do I need to carve it out?

Lastly, what IS that white/cream colored stuff that is painted all over the surface of the inside of the hull? Just curious what that is exactly. I referred to it in the past as primer or gel coat but Im sure thats wrong. It is very thick in some areas and thin in most. It looks like it was painted on because I can see brush marks on the top edge. Its very nasty stuff.

I know that when grinding the old away, we are prepping for the new. I understand that the physical layers of buildup need to be removed so that compartments and other structures can be replaced properly. I also understand that contamination is a problem when adhering the new materials. But once an area is clean and level, when do I stop?

 

[Woodonglass]

At least you're doing it at the right time of year!!! You should try it in Oklahoma in July!!! You don't happen to have a woodworkers dust collector do you???

The Creamy coating is prolly Gelcoat. What you're trying to accomplish is grinding down to a smooth consistent "Pinkish" glass surface free of loose fibers and any other contamination. It should be pretty obvious once you get down to that level. Once you see it you'll recognize it.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

The new glass you will apply will not bond itself chemically to the existing laminate, the first layer of glass you will apply will bond itself to the existing layer mechanically. You goal is to remove any contamination from the surface, remove the shine of old glass and reach a fresh surface only. The grinding desk with scratch out the old fibers and make them protrude out of the surface (not to your naked eye) and these strands will help the mechanical bond of the new glass layer.

You don't want to grind every inch on your boat. Only where new glass will be applied. You don't want to fair, level, or grind you hull away. You just need to get to the fresh layer below the surface. This is like grinding few thousands of an inch, no more but it is very hard to measure of course so you just eyeball it.

 

[artfan1]

At least you're doing it at the right time of year!!! You should try it in Oklahoma in July!!! You don't happen to have a woodworkers dust collector do you???

The Creamy coating is prolly Gelcoat. What you're trying to accomplish is grinding down to a smooth consistent "Pinkish" glass surface free of loose fibers and any other contamination. It should be pretty obvious once you get down to that level. Once you see it you'll recognize it.

Yes, the timing is good I know. The weather has cooled here although it's like a greenhouse inside the plastic and pvc igloo I made to contain the dust. I can't imagine doing it this past summer.

I don't have a dust collector. I'm using a large shopvac with dust collection bags inside. Are you referring to a room style dust collector like the box shaped things I see in some shops?
I thought about making something simple like a box fan and furnace filters just to catch some of it but I imagine the fan would burn up quickly.

The new glass you will apply will not bond itself chemically to the existing laminate, the first layer of glass you will apply will bond itself to the existing layer mechanically. You goal is to remove any contamination from the surface, remove the shine of old glass and reach a fresh surface only. The grinding desk with scratch out the old fibers and make them protrude out of the surface (not to your naked eye) and these strands will help the mechanical bond of the new glass layer.

You don't want to grind every inch on your boat. Only where new glass will be applied. You don't want to fair, level, or grind you hull away. You just need to get to the fresh layer below the surface. This is like grinding few thousands of an inch, no more but it is very hard to measure of course so you just eyeball it.

Thanks, that's helpful to hear because a lot of the area I am grinding on now will be hidden inside the compartments anyway. But I will want to recoat it with something like gelcoat to "freshen" up the surface. Does that change things?

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Any surface that will be reglassed need to be grinded down for the reasons I mentioned above. The surfaces that will be repainted only need to be sanded down only to remove any shin or wax from the surface. In all cases, you need to de-wax by cleaning with Acetone very well after grinding or sanding. With that said, some find it "easier" to just continue grind down everything instead of switching between grinding and sanding disks.

 

[gm280]

Art, you are doing the absolute worst job of refurbishing any fiberglass boat. I did it in the heat and can tell you it was miserable on good days. It took me about a week of grinding to do my tri-hull. But the white stuff was everywhere and it looked like it snowed. I had a 20" box fan pointed directly at me about four feet away and I was wearing a Tyvek total suit with eye goggles and a 3M respirator with vapor fume cartridges to make certain I was protected and there was still area of my body that still got covered with fiberglass dust. But once you finish up this part of the rebuild, it gets exciting again. I grinded every square inch of my hull to make certain all the old hairy fiberglass was gone and a clean fresh layer exposed to which the new polyester would attach. So use your best judgment to how far you need to grind. Oh and if you don't grind through the hull in multiple places, you will be the first person I know of that hasn't... JMHO!

 

[artfan1]

I'm still not receiving notifications when someone replies. Not sure why.

... It took me about a week of grinding to do my tri-hull...

Wow, you did it in a week? I'm guessing this will take me another 1-2 weeks. But honestly, I can't work on it every day right now, plus I sometimes only get a couple hours in at a time. My real job got a little busy so that keeps me away from the boat. Figures now that the weather is perfect.

Also, maybe I need to reconfirm my use of tools. I'm using an angle grinder for almost all of the current work. On that grinder I use a couple of different things. Mostly I use 24 grit sanding discs with the hard rubber/plastic backing pad. I also use a 40 grit (the roughest I could find) flap disc, in some areas.
There are some areas that I switch to a right angle flap disc.

The most frustrating thing here is that with this setup, you only have about 1" x 2" of functional grinding area, because the guard on my grinder is so restrictive. I've been tempted to remove that but have not done so because I have read so many warnings about injuries. As hard as it is to see, that guard does protect me and also gives me a place to support the grinder when I set it down and it's still slowing down after I shut it off.

I really would like a tool that is more like a random orbital sander but with the power of a grinder. I've looked at tools like this but I don't know if they would deliver the power that the grinder does. Plus, they might be too dangerous to use.

 

[Woodonglass]

You might consider getting a 7" grinder. It will speed things up a bit. Make sure and wear Heavy Leather Gloves !!

 

[gm280]

art, please don't remove the guard. That is an accident waiting to happen. Yes it is slow work, but I used flapper disks for 90% of everything I grinded and then a 2" right angle grinder with 36 grit 2" 3M roloc disks to get into the tighter areas. And yes I did grind through a few places as well. It was going along really well there for about a day or two and then it seemed every time I turned around, another opps! So don't get too excited when you grind through. Most folks do, but those oops are easily fixable as you will see. In fact I used the same flapper disks for an entire day before wearing it out. Those flappers really go a long ways... I never used just a grinding solid disk while grind the hull. The flappers seem to work better and quicker for me. JMHO! Hang in there, It does get better! :thumb:

 

[DeepBlue2010]

I'm still not receiving notifications when someone replies. Not sure why.


Also, maybe I need to reconfirm my use of tools. I'm using an angle grinder for almost all of the current work. On that grinder I use a couple of different things. Mostly I use 24 grit sanding discs with the hard rubber/plastic backing pad. I also use a 40 grit (the roughest I could find) flap disc, in some areas.
There are some areas that I switch to a right angle flap disc.

The most frustrating thing here is that with this setup, you only have about 1" x 2" of functional grinding area, because the guard on my grinder is so restrictive. I've been tempted to remove that but have not done so because I have read so many warnings about injuries. As hard as it is to see, that guard does protect me and also gives me a place to support the grinder when I set it down and it's still slowing down after I shut it off.

I really would like a tool that is more like a random orbital sander but with the power of a grinder. I've looked at tools like this but I don't know if they would deliver the power that the grinder does. Plus, they might be too dangerous to use.

A good work around is........ instead of checking your email, check the thread

The angle grinder is all you need. If you are using the flap disk, don't remove the guard and never take your gloves off. I have a permanent reminder of these two statements on my index finger, you don’t need that.

The flap disk edges are sharp and will get you faster than you can imagine. The sanding disk could be different on the edges but I did not try it. The 7” grinder expedited things a little for me but the gain in the speed of grinding where neutralized by the need to rest my arms (not a wimp but my arms were not in a good shape back then)

 

[Woodonglass]

I personally like the resin coated discs and the backup pad just like you're using. I think they are more agressive and take off glass faster. I've used both. The 24 grit discs are excellent. I burned up 4 of the 4 1/2" HF grinders and then went and bought a 7" Porter Cable grinder. I've had it for 5 years and it's still going strong. You're not really a boat restorer until you've put a hole in your hull!!!!

 

[kcassells]

Art,
Everyone's times and ching ching are different and as weather permits. The best is you are really moving along and you have the Best Crew supporting you. But yes as Wood said lol...expect a few overgrinds, me and me very included in that category.

 

[artfan1]

WOG. Yes, I realized after I started using my grinder that a 7" grinder would have been better. I might pick one up. I think both will be needed for different areas.

gm280. You are correct and I won't be taking the guard off, even though I did consider it for a second. I know better and I've heard it so many times on youtube and in articles, "never take the guard off". I like my fingers.
As for the 2" grinder. I don't think I have seen one of those. I do see some die grinders which are straight but not any angle grinders. I'll have to look at those for the corners and tight spots.

deepblue. Yea, I check the thread pretty regularly. Maybe too much. I have a shortcut icon on my phone, plus I read a lot of the other threads too so I'm on here all the time. I just can't understand why I don't get the notifications but I did read that others had experienced this in the past so I don't feel so bad.
Not only won't I take the guard off, I'm a avid glove user. I am always telling my older kids to wear gloves when they work on stuff. The gloves are always on...heavy leather ones.

kcassells. You are correct about the crew of support. Honestly I don't know how you all do it. I for one appreciate the time it takes to answer all my questions, not to mention all the other threads going at the same time. It's nice to have that feeling of "well if I mess this up, 'they' will know what to do".

One last thought about the resin discs vs the flap discs. I like them both for different areas but the resin discs are moving faster for me. But that's because I can only find 40 grit flap discs anywhere here. I've looked for courser discs at all the major stores including Harbor Freight, Menards, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. 40 or finer is all they have. So the 24 grit resin discs do work better. I might order some 24 grit flap discs if I can find any.
Home Depot now has a huge selection of sanding discs for grinders. They have some pretty cools ones. Even a rounded double sided flap disc, but 40 grit is the meanest they have.

 

[Mark72233]

artfan, I have been out here following along your looking good and keep up the great work. As far as reading blogs you're not alone, I check them about 10 times a day and I am subscribed on over 100 threads so I am always reading them it's like an addiction in a good way.

 

[gm280]

art, the die grinders I have, two of them are 90 degree angled type and one straight die grinder. The straight one is a el-cheapo Campbell Hausfeld from Walmart. About $10 to $15 dollars for it. The other two are Ingersoll Rand and a Dotco. The Dotco is a very expensive model and I would never have bought it for myself. But I was given it for a present and that is why I have that one. The Ingersoll Rand one is about $90 dollars model and is a really good one too. The only 2" disks I use these days are genuine 3M type "R" disks, no others. I tried the el-cheapo disks and they literally spin apart near instantly. The 3M Roloc type "R" style last forever it seems. There is a huge difference. And you can buy both the 3M roloc R and the quality flapper disks in many grits on EBay for a lot less then any local store offers them. I can usually buy between 5 to 10 disks for the price of one locally. And the selection of grits is a whole lot more as well. I buy most of my sanding materials in bulk and try to keep enough on hand all the time. So check out what is available online and save a lot of money. The companies ship really fast too knowing you need then yesterday. One other thing, if you do use any pneumatic die grinders, make certain you oil them daily. The cheaper they are, the worst the bears are and the quicker they will seize a bearing if not oiled. The more expensive ones can take a heck of a lot more abuse because they use the better bearings. All it takes is a few drops in the air inlet port before usage. JMHO!

 

[artfan1]

So, things are going along slowly but surely. I plan to spray the whole boat down this weekend and evaluate where I'm at. I'll take pictures at that point.
Right now I have a pvc frame on top with plastic and a tarp which creates a confined work area, so photos are not as easy once I get suited up and inside.

My biggest problem is visibility. I honestly think I would be finished with the grinding by now if I wasn't having so much trouble seeing what I'm doing. I've tried everything I can think of but my goggles fog up within 15 minutes, and I don't mean just a little. They become so impossible to see out of, I have to stop and try to wipe them off. It just doesn't work.

I've tried wiping dish soap on the lens. That works a little but only for a little while, then the dust seems to cake on them. I bought some "Cat Crap" (yea that's what it's called) lens cleaner and defogger. I found it at WalMart. That only helped for about 5 minutes then it was useless. Maybe I shouldn't be using the type of goggles I'm using, I don't know. Is this just something everyone deals with? Are there any other tricks?

If I could afford one of those full face 3M PowerFlow masks, I would get one for sure.

Mark72/233, Thanks for the support.

gm280, Thanks for the info on the 3M Roloc discs, I'll be ordering some.

 

[Woodonglass]

Are you using a Fan?? Fans??? If Not I would be. Tape some AC Filters to a couple of Cheap Box fans and see if that helps. Get a shop vac and build a collection box for it and set it in close proximity of where you're grinding and buy some filter bags for the Vac. Use your own SPIT on the inside of your gogles to keep em from fogging up. Use car wax on the outside of the lenses and polish em up to make em as slick as possible so the dust won't stick. I KNOW it sucks but it won't be much longer and you'll move on to the next stages of the restoration and they ARE much better.:thumb:

 

[gm280]

Yes WOG is spot on with the fan(S). I had a fan sitting about three feet from me blowing against me on full speed when I was grinding. And that helped greatly with such things. I used more of a wrap around type safety glasses then a sealed eye goggles. That way air and breathe heat could escape without fogging up the lens. It still is a crappy job, but I was able to completely cover everything with a few inches deep dust before taking a break and cleaning up the dust. I didn't use a cyclone type vacuum setup to vacuum the tons of dust and the shop vac did get really heavy with a lot of dust too. The filters needed a complete cleaning to be able to continue. However, I see ways now to stop that with either a home made cyclone type pre-vacuum canister or a water type setup that forces the dust into the bottom of the shopvac into the water and not the filter. So if I ever have to do that type grinding again, It will be just a little easier...if that is at all possible. :facepalm:

 

[artfan1]

Are you using a Fan?? Fans??? If Not I would be. Tape some AC Filters to a couple of Cheap Box fans and see if that helps. Get a shop vac and build a collection box for it and set it in close proximity of where you're grinding and buy some filter bags for the Vac. Use your own SPIT on the inside of your gogles to keep em from fogging up. Use car wax on the outside of the lenses and polish em up to make em as slick as possible so the dust won't stick. I KNOW it sucks but it won't be much longer and you'll move on to the next stages of the restoration and they ARE much better.:thumb:

Yep. I have a box fan hanging at eye level with filter on the back. I have the fan blowing at me sometimes and away from me sometimes. I've tried both. I also have a large shopvac with dust collection filter bags. I have a long vacuum hose laying next to me and I position it in the best location as I grind. I then grab it and vacuum up the large piles between grinding. It also helps a little if I put the end of the vacuum hose to my goggles for a few seconds. I close my eyes and cup the end of the hose in my glove and then on my goggles above the nose piece. The cool air moving through them causes some of the humidity to go out. Plus it pulls off a lot of the dust. I know it sounds strange but it works a little.

I will try the car wax and spit method you mentioned. I figured it was just how it was but wanted to ask. I was hoping someone might say, "wrong goggles" or "try this". Now I have something to try so that's encouraging. I should have tried to spit on them. I know divers do that but forgot.

I still have lots to grind, such as the floor and then detailing corners and stuff but I do see light at the end of the tunnel now so that's good. My goal is to have the grinding finished before winter so that I can look forward to the fun stuff in the spring.

Photos to follow in the next few days I hope. Thanks!

 

[artfan1]

My wife just came up with a good idea. She suggested I try swimming goggles. Not the full face mask but the little goggles that have two eye pieces on a strap. I know that won't work as eye protection but it should keep dust out and I can put the big plastic safety glasses over them for added protection if needed.
Since the fogging is caused by heat, sweat and/or breathing, this would eliminate it I think. They just surround each eye and don't include your forehead and dust mask. Might work. As soon as I can find some I will try it. Of course, the swimming season is over so they might not be easy to find. Walmart surely has some though.

And I might try to build this over the winter. DIY Powered Respirator . For future grinding.