Replacing all of the bellows for my outdrive.

[achris]

Chris, I have not found a manual....

What about the link (to the manual) I posted in reply #5 of this thread, and you thanked me for it in post #9?....

Read the manual, and read it again, then when you think you have it, read it again. It's an important set of steps that need to be followed TO THE LETTER.... As I said, set the backlash and preloads wrong and it's 'goodnight drive'..... (and by the sound of what you're doing, the workshop is helping you buy a new drive from them!)

Let me say this. I have done dozens of those drives, and I never once did one without using the special set up tools for the job. Even with that many done, I still wouldn't just 'do it by feel', which is what you have done. The depth of the drive gear with the bearing pack is set by the shims you put in. Those shims control how far in the drive gear sits. It needs to be accurate to within a thousandth of an inch.I don't care who you are, nobody has eyes that accurate, hence the special tools. You also replaced the upper drive shaft top bearing. That bearing is also shimmed to set the bearing pre-load for the upper drive shaft. Too tight and the bearings overheat and fail, too loose and the shaft is prone to 'rattling around' and the gear teeth will fail. Did you set the preload with a roller torque indicator? Did you then check the driven gear height? Also requiring to be set to within a thou. When you have the driven gear height and upper drive shaft preload set the housing is ready for the drive gear, but that also needs to have the perload set and the gear depth shimmed correctly. Would you rebuild a motor vehicle differential without all the right tools?

Chris.......

 

[glennj3]

I am writing down the procedures to help me understand what I am reading. Using your # 21 post, (I don't know how to use a quote to refer to particular statements).
I did not change the depth of the drive gear, I did not add or remove any shims to it.
I did replace the top bearing, I don't recall any shims on it either.
Are the measurements you refer are changed by using shims, how do you measure the height?
Pre-load is measured with a torque wrench, but how do you measure torque and turn the gear at the same time?
What is a roller torque indicator?
Moving slowly, I agree, it seems my mechanic should be using these precise measurements!
Also, how do I know if I have small spacer, or no spacer regarding which procedure to follow , and torque settings.

 

[achris]

Have you watched my video on bearing pre-load? If not, I suggest you do. You'll find it up in Dons' stickies section (Adults only)

The gear heights are set by using Merc special tools. If you have read the manual you will see the tools in use and the way to determine if you have the 'small spacer' or not.

 

[glennj3]

Well, I don't know how I found the video but I did!! Would have been easiest to just go to You tube in the first place though.
Very nice and not complicated as it sounded. Also I still have to view more video's as I only watched the one regarding the newer version of the gears. Thanks for making the video!

 

[glennj3]

This is getting more and more interesting with more details. Now I have to remove the gear again and basically start over, look for any #'s on the gear etc. I don't recall any #'s so I was probably put in OK. The torque was not set and the shim spacing was not done. I hate to think that a boat shop does not go by specs no better than that! They should have the book open for reference if not done very often.
I will look for a shemming tool. I ordered the Spanner Nut Wrench so I can do this myself without traveling across town !
Wondering if I can order a shim pack from I boats or just Google it?

 

[JaCrispy]

Only thing I can add is to buy an alignment tool and the bellows kits usually don't come with bellows adhesive, so buy that separately.

 

[glennj3]

I had to order another pin tool, the first one slipped out and stripped the tool's teeth! I just got it in today, looks different and cost a little more. This one is a Quicksilver Marine Hinge Pin so I hope it is stronger. I will also heat the area beside the pin to swell and loosen the red thread lock.
I have ordered other tools to make the job easier. Leaving this Saturday for a vacation so my job will have to sit for a while now.
I have an old yoke shaft, I understand it can be used to assure alignment?
Thanks everyone again for helping me along the way.

 

[astronutski]

Dig those hinge pin recessed heads out with a pick first. If properly seated there's no way it should have slipped out. It buries in there about 3/8"-1/2".
Also, be careful with the heat, you will toast the synthane washers just on the other side of that gimbal ring, between the bell housing.

I bought an alignment tool and damn glad I did. Mine fortunately was in alignment, but I see how nice it is to have, especially to drive in the new gimbal bearing and grease seal.

Hehe, have fun with the bellows adhesive, I just finished mine, thankfully! Almost stuck my elbow to my hip in the process, hehe. Another tip, I bought an aftermarket kit, and the GLM shift cable bellows is different from the QS one. They look identical, but for the life of me I couldn't get that bellows on all the way. It looked like it was good but every single time I clamped the clamp it slid off the flange. Probably 5 times until I ripped it trying to push it on even more. In a panic state bought a local one which was EXPENSIVE but a QS brand, and went on and clamped up with zero sweat first try. It was night and day difference, that taught me a valuable lesson, in the future I will only buy the QS brand. YMMV of course, but that was easily the most difficult part of my whole drive rebuild.

 

[Alumarine]

You can't use a yoke shaft to check alignment. You need an alignment bar.

 

[glennj3]

I guess I have greater worries than aligning the engine. The bell housing hinge pin stripped! Yes I seated it but it was semi stripped from the previous tool I used.
Can't look back, got to move forward!
Next step, change out the bell housing and replace the entire thing? I have do have a spare.
Otherwise drilling would take a long time and I don't know if they make hill coil with those threads?
I have my parts all stock from the dealer but I will check to make sure they are QS ?

 

[achris]

The threads in the bell-housing are stripped or the head of the hinge pin? If it's the bell-housing, just remove it and take it to a machine shop, they should be able to heli-coil it for you for far less than a new bell-housing (yes they make heli-coils that size). New bell-housing is in the order of $700.

 

[glennj3]

The head of the pin is stripped, it never moved. I don't know any way to remove it without drilling. I have a spare bell housing so I might as well clean it up and use it. Funny how the pins came out of it with no problem! Who knows, I may get to drive it once or twice this year!
I never got the carburetor running right, just changed my priorities!

 

[achris]

I have in the past used an old hinge pin and carefully welded it into the pin. Throw away the tool and the pin afterwards, but it works.

Chris.......

 

[glennj3]

Wow, is that possible. I could take the boat to my friend the welder and see what he can do. So you welded the hinge pin tool to the hinge pin?

 

[achris]

So you welded the hinge pin tool to the hinge pin?

Yep.

 

[glennj3]

We got her out, weld would not hold but wedged the appropriate size chisel into it, got her red hot and she turned! I have a spare housing so I will take it apart and find the gaskets I need to replace.
Can't wait to return next Saturday from a trip down to Florida so I can get on the job. I got all of my tools in for checking the upper outdrive and replacing the bellows, but the shim tool.
I have no idea how that one works???
Thanks Chris for the great idea too!

 

[achris]

You bought shim tools for the drive? Great, now you can do all your freinds' drives Read the manual on how to use the shim tools. (I assume you ARE refering to the tools for checking drive and driven gear heights.) The Merc service manual is quite clear and easy to follow. What about a rolling torque indicator? Do you have the manual? (I linked it for you in post#5. Just downlad and SAVE)

Chris......

 

[glennj3]

I ordered the manual, much easier to use than printing the own loaded version, but would have been cheaper!
I will need to ID which U joint bearing I have. I don't think I have the one with the small spacer, I suppose it would be obvious when looking at it? I know the nut was tight, we did not use a torque wrench, just goot and tight with my ratchet with the U joint held in a vice ! That is what my mechanic told me to do and it was very tight when I removed it also. I will certainly find out what torque it is supposed to be at and correct that.
Regarding shimming the drive and driven gear heights, we did not change any gear or shimmies in the lower unit or the upper.So is this necessary to check the lower?
The only shims added was a thin one to the drive shaft housing, there were no marks or #'s that I remember seeing on any ear. So I need to know the gear ratio first?
I did not order the shim tool.
No rolling torque, thought I could use the torque wrench like you did on the You Tube??
I appreciate you keeping me strait Chis !

 

[achris]

I ordered the manual, much easier to use than printing the own loaded version, but would have been cheaper!

Which one? Merc genunine I hope. Seloc and clymer are known to have 'accuracy issues'.

I will need to ID which U joint bearing I have. I don't think I have the one with the small spacer, I suppose it would be obvious when looking at it?

All the uni joints are the same. What's different is the bearing pack and drive gear spacers. When you remove the nut, then the bearing pack and gear and disassemble the bearings you will see a large spacer between the bearing outer races. In that same area may be a small spacer between the bearing inner races. That's the one you're looking for to be present or absent.

I know the nut was tight, we did not use a torque wrench, just good and tight with my ratchet with the U joint held in a vice ! That is what my mechanic told me to do and it was very tight when I removed it also.

Then sack that mechanic! If you have the small spacer, the nut needs to be tighten, with a torque wrench. With no spacer you must use the rolling torque method.

I will certainly find out what torque it is supposed to be at and correct that.

Only if you HAVE the small spacer. It'll be 80 lb-ft. "Good and tight" is not accurate enough.

Regarding shimming the drive and driven gear heights, we did not change any gear or shimmies in the lower unit or the upper.So is this necessary to check the lower?

Not the lower, but you moved things around in the upper, so some of the heights and preloads need to be checked. You seem to have been guessing at the drive gear depth, so I would definitely be checking that one, and the upper drive shaft top bearing was replaced, so the upper drive shaft pre-load needs to be checked and set.

The only shims added was a thin one to the drive shaft housing, there were no marks or #'s that I remember seeing on any ear. So I need to know the gear ratio first?

If you added the shim without checking the drive gear depth with a shim tool, it WILL be wrong (read: noisy drive, or dead drive. Take your pick). The drive ratio supplied with the '470'/165 engine was 1.84:1. That doesn't mean someone didn't change it at some stage. Count the teeth on your drive and driven gears. Should be 17 and 19 respectively.

I did not order the shim tool.

Can't check the gear heights and depths without them.

No rolling torque, thought I could use the torque wrench like you did on the You Tube??

??? I used a torque indicator not a torque wrench.

I appreciate you keeping me straight Chis !

My pleasure.

 

[glennj3]

Thanks for all of this Chris. I am a monkey see monkey do kind of guy, so I can learn a lot more from a movie than reading. Understanding what your reading and having never seen procedures in action is difficult.
I will look for the noisy drive video.
I counted the teeth by chance when I was working with it, I counted 19 teeth on the gear, not sure of the difference of the drive and the driven gear. I could guess the drive is coming from the yoke and the driven is going down?
I had the bearings apart and I don't recall seeing a small spacer but of course I will look and see. But since it was torqued tightly for a long time and had no issues I would assume there was a small spacer!
Using the rolling torque method, I can use a torque wrench, but I have to turn the bearings often while checking the torque, correct ?
I understand I must have that expensive shim tool and will have to learn somehow, how to use it correctly. Then I will need a small supply of shims on hand for both areas. I hate to measure then find out I need shims, then order shims and not know what size etc.
It sounds a little complicated using the shim tool and a feeler gauge if I recall what I read.
So where do I order shims from??
I will be out for the rest of the week, so I may not be able to respond to anything other than emails, but I sure look forward to starting on this thing next week!
Oh, I have the Clymer book, not very good, I ordered the original copy from MC I believe.