PlayDoh’s 16 SS resto underway

[DLNorth]

Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES) is well liked over on the Wooden Boat board.
Note that it is a sealer, NOT adhesive.
If you use it, be sure you have plenty of ventilation, it has some nasty solvents.

 

[PlayD0h]

Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES) is well liked over on the Wooden Boat board.
Note that it is a sealer, NOT adhesive.
If you use it, be sure you have plenty of ventilation, it has some nasty solvents.

Thanks DLNorth, I did read some of the talk on CPES on there before and more again. I spent the extra $160 over Spar and Boild Linseed oil and I should be sealing up the transom soon.
Im also going to use it as a primer on the hull. I might only do the below water line area, once I figure out how much the transom and deck will require. I might go a bit lighter on the front 2 sections of Deck, or do them in Spar if the 2 gallons won’t go as far as I’d like it to.
I grabbed some Marine Tex also, firstly to level out the minor pitting in the transom skin. I didn’t expect that to cost as much as it did. Nearly $100 for it, ouch.
Ive been working on my garage putting better insulation in it, and wiring up 240v for a heater. 50 feet of finished ceiling and 2 rooms between the breaker and the garage, so it’s no small, or cheap task.
Ive spent a small fortune so far, but I’m hoping I’m over half way there in terms of cost. And the rest I can do in a pace that’s more affordable and relaxed.

$200 for 2 quarts of paint, 2 quarts of primer, both Rustoluem marine ‘topside’, and a quart of the same brand of Spar, and a bigger tube of 5200.

I spent the better part of $200 on paint stripper and nylon brush cups along with scrubbers and goofOff and lacquer thiner to clean up the primer.

$100 on solid rivets and a rivet set from AirCraft spruce. 3/16” x 3/8,7/16 & 1/2 (6-6, 6-7, 6-8). I went with the soft rivets, just because it felt better IMO to use what they did building it. Harder isn’t always better, yet in this regard I’m sure either will work.

$380 on System 3 S-1 CPES ($260), $85? For the Marine Tex, cups, stir sticks and what not.

$50 for Valspar hardener ($5 for 1/8th of a gallon I think at a local auto body supplier, along with scotchbrite pads, and some polishing/sanding stuff.

$40 for new respirator, and probably $200-$300 on odds and ends at Home Depot like brushes, acetone, Mineral spirits, etc.

Oh and $80 on the 3/4” good 1 side fir.

$100 on Gluvit also and $40 on Gflex ‘aluminum repair kit’

im going to need at least another 2 quarts of paint, deck wood, seats and the doodads for the interior, and that’ll be at least $1500 if I don’t get a deal on seats which I’m not expecting to. Oh, and $500 on deck vinyl. Pop rivets, and probably a mountain of other stuff I can’t think of at the moment.

Im justifying the expense in comparison to the 2019 Starcraft Renegade I like. $30,000 minus the $6000 motor. So if I stay under $24,000 I’m in the black, lol.

I was told about a 16’ Aluminum with an 80hp late 70’s early 80’s mercy on it that needs some work, for $500. The thought of grabbing it and working on both at the same time to flip (sell) the other one to help with the cost, but I thought better of that soon after.

Selling a boat in that $1000-$5000 price range isn’t all that easy here. And I don’t need more expenses at the moment. If anyone is looking for an $750 boat let me know, lol.

 

[PlayD0h]

One question I’m wondering about, is should I put a light coat of Self Etch primer on first then the epoxy primer/sealer? The technical data on the CPES says 3 coats on wood, and something like 2 on glass, yet no info on coats of primer.
The guy at the shop said the stuff is like water, regarding how thin it is, and I’ll be pushing the limits trying to seal the transom, and even part of the deck, then priming the hull. I’ll likely be brushing and or rolling it, and attempting the same with the paint, since I’m not sure spraying will happen in my 500ft2, jam packed garage. Yet I might rig up a poly film ‘paint booth’.

 

[Watermann]

So you know there is no 100% pure AL 1100 rivets used in your boat, the sheet AL is all 5052 alloy to give strength and corrosion resistance. The 2117-T4 rivet was my choice due to it's properties and wide use in the aircraft industry to attach structural components. The indented dimple in the head of the rivets found on the boats also indicate the factory used the 2117 rivets as well.

I forgot to add this easy to read rivet data link. http://navyaviation.tpub.com/14018/c...osition-60.htm

 

[PlayD0h]

So you know there is no 100% pure AL 1100 rivets used in your boat, the sheet AL is all 5052 alloy to give strength and corrosion resistance. The 2117-T4 rivet was my choice due to it's properties and wide use in the aircraft industry to attach structural components. The indented dimple in the head of the rivets found on the boats also indicate the factory used the 2117 rivets as well.

I forgot to add this easy to read rivet data link. http://navyaviation.tpub.com/14018/c...osition-60.htm

The rivets on my boat are soft, no dimple, and would be 1100 pure aluminum as a result. Without a doubt

I likely read every bit of info and boat-solid rivet, thread the Internet has to offer. It wasn’t an easy decision going against your reccomendation, yet I found a greater number of 1100 reccomendations vs 2117. I felt the reasons for the 1100 made a bit more sense to me.

For 1, 2117 tensile strength is overkill to say the least. A rivet that is much harder than the hull could cause damage to the hull vs rivet. I’ve never set 2117 rivets so I can’t speak personally, yet the mention of deforming the hull didn’t sound worth the risk.
Next is the alloy which ‘could’ be a corrosion issue. Expansion both thermally and physically was a consideration.

The biggest factor for me is that I’m replacing 1100 rivets with 1100 rivets. I’m quite sure either would work, and I do give your advice merit and respect. If my rivets leak or break in time, I will readily admit my choice was wrong.

The issue is is reminiscent of the grade 5 vs grade 8 bolt uses. Grade 8 has more tensile strength, but it more brittle and has less shear strength vs grade 5. Each have there place, yet people often assume replacing a grade 5 with an 8 is acceptable, when it’s more often not and with catastrophic consequences sometimes.

 

[PlayD0h]

To be clear, I’m not suggesting 2117 are wrong, or that 1100 are proper. I don’t know enough to give advice, I just chose the soft type. The only issue I can foresee is them losing some grip, yet the hundreds of rivets on my boat are tight. The only reason some of them failed is from impact with most likely rocky lake bottom or the trailer.
With the rivets doubled on the seams tensile strength of the rivets is not a concern IMO.
It’s interesting that your boat has dimpled and alloy rivets, and mine not. Perhaps are hulls are not even the same aluminum? I’m sure there both 5000 series, yet perhaps not the same.

 

[Watermann]

It's your boat and you can use what you thinks best, just please don't get into aircraft restoration :lol:

All the brazier head solid rivets on my Chief are dimpled but the ones on my SS are not and I had to replace 100's of the rivets on the SS. When I drilled out the solids on my SS they weren't pure soft AL either.

When you set the 1100s, be very careful with light pressure, too much force with 2 sec on the air hammer and the bucktail will mash flat as a dime under the bucking bar.

What's important with AL boats is fatigue strength, 5052 is rated at 117 MPa and 2117 is 124 MPa, very close to each other.

Using the steel grade 8 v 5 analogy aren't the high grade bolts often bolted to mild steel or at least material with less hardness? It never goes the other way like you're doing using lesser fasteners to attach harder material.

Then there's blind rivets. Most the blinds from good sources are made with 5052 and not pure AL if they were pure it would not be able to pull the mandrel tight and pop correctly.

I assume you checked out my rivets thread in the stickies.

 

[PlayD0h]

It's your boat and you can use what you thinks best, just please don't get into aircraft restoration :lol:

All the brazier head solid rivets on my Chief are dimpled but the ones on my SS are not and I had to replace 100's of the rivets on the SS. When I drilled out the solids on my SS they weren't pure soft AL either.

When you set the 1100s, be very careful with light pressure, too much force with 2 sec on the air hammer and the bucktail will mash flat as a dime under the bucking bar.

What's important with AL boats is fatigue strength, 5052 is rated at 117 MPa and 2117 is 124 MPa, very close to each other.

Using the steel grade 8 v 5 analogy aren't the high grade bolts often bolted to mild steel or at least material with less hardness? It never goes the other way like you're doing using lesser fasteners to attach harder material.

Then there's blind rivets. Most the blinds from good sources are made with 5052 and not pure AL if they were pure it would not be able to pull the mandrel tight and pop correctly.

I assume you checked out my rivets thread in the stickies.

i know 2 aircraft mechanics, actually. And if I told either of them I replaced fasteners with a different kind they would certainly shake their heads. A hull is far from a pressurized fuselage though.

As to the bolt grade, the most important factor is the stresses the bolt will endure. Trailer hitches are a good example. You need grade 5 bolts to fasten a receiver or fifth wheel rails to a truck frame. Both the frame and rails are hardened steel. Yet the bolts need flexibility and to withstand sheer forces.
A famous, or rather infamous example is the West Edmonton mall roller coaster fatal accident, where the rear car broke free and killed the passengers. The mechanic replaced grade 5 bolts with grade 8, and it was the cause of the failure. Often the material being fastened is irrelevant. And often things are over engineered so that catastrophe from fastener failure is very rare.

I did did mention I read likely everything boat and rivet related right?
Your sticky was certainly first and most helpful. Thank you for taking the time to share that. I hope to pass what I’m learning on here to help the next guy. One area of improvement I think I might be able to help with, is organizing the tips, tricks, and general knowledge, in a more concise package.
Searching and scanning through hundreds of posts, trying to find one or 2 details is very time consuming, and often fruitless.
A Starcraft resto bible would be sooo much easier. That’s no easy task mind you, but I’ve been compiling stuff for a few years now, and learned even more.

Thanks for the rivet set tips. I’ve been practicing a bit, and I can get them looking exactly like the ones in the boat nearly everytime. I did over-estimate how much force it takes to set them, before actually doing some. Which was a part of my choice for soft rivets. If I didn’t have to buy a pound of each type I would have both soft and hard, yet my budget at the time wasn’t enough.

 

[PlayD0h]

My garage ceiling redo has become a can of worms, and a Murphy’s law experiment, lol. My boats been sitting turtled with a foot of snow on it, so at least I’m not missing out on working on it.
And when I’m done I should have a nice and cozy work space to use. The ceiling will be at least R-40 insulated and I have a small 240v heater to take the nip out of the air. The garage is heated by slab heat, yet it’s tied into the house/basement system, that’s not ideally designed. It gets the same heat level as the basement, yet with a double garage door, and 2 concrete walls it’s barely comfortable when it’s freezing out.

Anyways, this isn’t iHomes so enough of that talk.

Im going to feel bad in a way for not doing a pure resto, and I’m at a 85:15 ratio for customizing. Yet it’s not like it won’t look like an SC, and aside from the Splashwell - casting deck redesign, the rest will be the typical SS resto. For now that is, lol.

 

[PlayD0h]

So I’ve finsihed the garage and now I can work on the boat again.
I picked up some 2”x1.5” and 2”x4” aluminum square tube to give my knee brace super strength. And some 1”x 2” angle to reinforce the fastening tabs. I got a hold of a guy who will weld it all up for me. Yet I’m considering riveting it since it might be a while till he has time to weld it.
My only concern with all this is putting the brace out of alignment with the holes that are in the hull. Also the hull is a bit out of shape from a dent or two right where the brace is.
Do I bang the hull back to shape, and weld up the brace and deal with any holes that don’t line up? Or leave the hull alone and just rivet the tabs and supports? Still chewing on it.
Heres some pics

 

[Watermann]

I'm not one to recommend welding on riveted boats but to weld up a knee brace outside the boat would be fine. I wouldn't use blind rivets to repair the brace though, drill through and use SS machine screws and nylocs to add the angle.

 

[No-AH]

When I repaired the brace in my Holi, I also added angles on the inner and outer part where the tabs are for strength. I also slid a piece 2x4x1/4" AL as long as possible to the inside, this really stiffened it up. I riveted it all with 1/4"x7/8" ss structural magnaloks and added 4x1/4" ss throughbolts with nylocs as Watermann suggested.
When it came time to installing it, it takes 2 people, one in and one outside of the boat. I then transferred/drilled the hull holes onto the new tabs of the brace before securing into place. Once all holes lined up I buttered where the through bolts went and where the brace made contact with the hull with 5200.

 

[PlayD0h]

When I repaired the brace in my Holi, I also added angles on the inner and outer part where the tabs are for strength. I also slid a piece 2x4x1/4" AL as long as possible to the inside, this really stiffened it up. I riveted it all with 1/4"x7/8" ss structural magnaloks and added 4x1/4" ss throughbolts with nylocs as Watermann suggested.
When it came time to installing it, it takes 2 people, one in and one outside of the boat. I then transferred/drilled the hull holes onto the new tabs of the brace before securing into place. Once all holes lined up I buttered where the through bolts went and where the brace made contact with the hull with 5200.

Very nice. One question about when you said you transferred hull holes. I’m guessing the original holes in the knee brace didn’t line up? Or was that just because you went up to 1/4” holes? (After reading your post again I noticed the “inner and outer” addition.)
it looks like you left the tabs on the knee brace intact, although I have considered just cutting them off. I’d say the majority of them have cracks and I also found tiny cracks in the corners between the top and lower tab, that contact the transom.
My hull is somewhat beat up in the rear, and not perfectly flat at the knee brace footing. 1/4” bolts would end any concern about that I suppose.
The thought of drilling out 16 holes from 3/16 to 1/4 isn’t exciting, since their all under the water line and close together. Maybe I’ll consider every second hole.

Thanks a million for sharing, and that looks a hundred times better than OE. Personally I’m going to try and have it welded, although I’m sure it’s not needed and has the risk of doing harm. Not to mention is much more ‘permanent’ if I find issues later.

 

[No-AH]

Very nice. One question about when you said you transferred hull holes. I’m guessing the original holes in the knee brace didn’t line up? Or was that just because you went up to 1/4” holes? (After reading your post again I noticed the “inner and outer” addition.)
it looks like you left the tabs on the knee brace intact, although I have considered just cutting them off.

Correct. I noticed when I refabbed the brace that it didn't line up perfectly to the existing hull holes. Reaming them up to 1/4" from 3/16" did resolve that. I DID cut the tabs off as it served no structural purpose in leaving them. Seeing how I was bolting it to the hull and transom instead of riveting, I made sure that I could get a socket to fit between the wall of the brace and nut before reaming the holes. I welded the 2 stress cracks at the flex point of the brace before adding the angles and center support. Bolting and riveting them gave the angles much more structural integrity than an outer weld would. I also added a 10"x12"x3/16" AL plate on the outer hull at the bottom for re-enforcement before securing the brace. I buttered it, the hull and holes with 5200 liberally as you can see in pic 1. I tapered the leading edge of said piece for a smoother transition. One thing I wished I had done beforehand was to move the drain hole to the center of the keel before installing the brace. And I would have replaced it with a brass threaded type. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Watermann]

Now that's a seriously well done knee brace repair :thumb:

 

[PlayD0h]

Correct. I noticed when I refabbed the brace that it didn't line up perfectly to the existing hull holes. Reaming them up to 1/4" from 3/16" did resolve that. I DID cut the tabs off as it served no structural purpose in leaving them. Seeing how I was bolting it to the hull and transom instead of riveting, I made sure that I could get a socket to fit between the wall of the brace and nut before reaming the holes. I welded the 2 stress cracks at the flex point of the brace before adding the angles and center support. Bolting and riveting them gave the angles much more structural integrity than an outer weld would. I also added a 10"x12"x3/16" AL plate on the outer hull at the bottom for re-enforcement before securing the brace. I buttered it, the hull and holes with 5200 liberally as you can see in pic 1. I tapered the leading edge of said piece for a smoother transition. One thing I wished I had done beforehand was to move the drain hole to the center of the keel before installing the brace. And I would have replaced it with a brass threaded type. Just my 2 cents.

Ah, a plate. Genius. Now that I think about it, those magna rivets, or plain bolts would add more strength. Yet in fairness a slight risk of crack origin.
Ive started painting the hull bottom and will just deal with touch ups after. Nobody is going to see them anyways, and I think doing this brace work will be much easier and better with the boat upright and I’m not trying to rush so I can paint.
Thanks again for the ideas. It makes me wonder why they treated the knee brace as they did, when simple improvements wouldn’t have taken much more time or money. Or the braces load and support isn’t as vital as it appears?

 

[PlayD0h]

Correct. I noticed when I refabbed the brace that it didn't line up perfectly to the existing hull holes. Reaming them up to 1/4" from 3/16" did resolve that. I DID cut the tabs off as it served no structural purpose in leaving them. Seeing how I was bolting it to the hull and transom instead of riveting, I made sure that I could get a socket to fit between the wall of the brace and nut before reaming the holes. I welded the 2 stress cracks at the flex point of the brace before adding the angles and center support. Bolting and riveting them gave the angles much more structural integrity than an outer weld would. I also added a 10"x12"x3/16" AL plate on the outer hull at the bottom for re-enforcement before securing the brace. I buttered it, the hull and holes with 5200 liberally as you can see in pic 1. I tapered the leading edge of said piece for a smoother transition. One thing I wished I had done beforehand was to move the drain hole to the center of the keel before installing the brace. And I would have replaced it with a brass threaded type. Just my 2 cents.

So you inspired me to up my bracing. I got some 6x4 3/16” walled square tubing that I’m going to split and use the 2 halves of angle.

Ive been shopping out of the off-cut bins at the metal shop to avoid paying a fortune. I grabbed a 7x16 3/16” tread (diamond) plate and assumed I could bend it without too much difficulty. I nearly got a hernia trying to I went to anneal it with my torch but ran out of O2 half way through.

I wonder if your Holi is large enough you didn’t have to bend it. Yet by the size of yours that doesn’t seem likely in my minds eye. I’m thinking I’ll continue making my new quick fab brake to bend mine, or I’ll go buy 2 1/8” thick plates.

My hulls takin a decent beating in the area, and it’s going to have to be a ‘custom’ bend, since it’s a bit off. After looking at all the cracks in this brace, I’m tempted to scrap the whole thing and just build one with rectangular tubing.

I was hoping to get this plate on so i could paint the hull bottom and flip it and start working and start working on everything else. Ugh.

 

[PlayD0h]

I got some 1/8” thick 5052, so I should be able to shape this a lot easier. Gonna find out tonight. I think 1 plate of 1/8” should be enough, and bending 2 pieces to near exact same shape wouldn’t be that easy. That will depend on how off straight I’ll need to tweak it to fit right tight.

 

[Watermann]

1/8" (.125) AL is a tough nut to crack when it comes to bending it, .100 is close and I could make some wide bends but nothing real tight 90 degrees.

 

[PlayD0h]

Your not kidding. Yet I managed, and the bends needed were shallow as I’m sure you can imagine.

I dropped the better part of $100 on SS hardware. 8 1/4” for the brace to hull/plate and 6 around the perimeter of the plate with around a dozen solid 3/16” rivets to the perimeter.

Now im wondering how I’ll ‘seal’ the plate. I have plenty of 5200 yet I also have a West Aluminum epoxy repair ‘kit’ that might be a better option. Then 5200 on the hardware. Im going to read up on the kit and see.