Old I/Os = Money Pits?

[88 Capri (2022 SOTY)]

I posted this back in 2014 https://forums.iboats.com/threads/hull-integrity-question.631409/page-3

Remember, we have a 12 step program for boat restoration.
Step 1 - Deny you have a rot issue (we all do this)
Step 2 - try to convince yourself you dont have a rot issue
Step 3 - that gnawing ominous feeling that something is amiss every time you step on the boat
Step 4 - accept that you may have a XXX year old rotten boat - 37 year old in this case
Step 5 - weight your boat. Compare that weight to known dry weight
Step 6 - drill test holes (you have done this)
Step 7 - determine if the boat is worth it to you to restore, or cut up into a planter
Step 8 - pull out the implements of destruction
Step 9 - post pics of the process - we can help
Step 10 - start to loose faith, we help see the end
Step 11 - your now applying gel and buffing it
Step 12 - you are now enjoying your boat, you feel good, you realize how solid it now feels.

I think this should be a sticky in here!

 

[LaqueRatt]

I posted this back in 2014 https://forums.iboats.com/threads/hull-integrity-question.631409/page-3

Remember, we have a 12 step program for boat restoration.
Step 1 - Deny you have a rot issue (we all do this)
Step 2 - try to convince yourself you dont have a rot issue
Step 3 - that gnawing ominous feeling that something is amiss every time you step on the boat
Step 4 - accept that you may have a XXX year old rotten boat - 37 year old in this case
Step 5 - weight your boat. Compare that weight to known dry weight
Step 6 - drill test holes (you have done this)
Step 7 - determine if the boat is worth it to you to restore, or cut up into a planter
Step 8 - pull out the implements of destruction
Step 9 - post pics of the process - we can help
Step 10 - start to loose faith, we help see the end
Step 11 - your now applying gel and buffing it
Step 12 - you are now enjoying your boat, you feel good, you realize how solid it now feels.

Words of wisdom! Actually I'm hoping and praying I don't end up in a project like this. My goal is to simply avoid a project, but beginning to think any glass boat over 10 years old likely is starting to deteriorate. I had no idea a fiberglass boat had so much wood in it. Doesn't anyone make a truly fiberglass boat? It seems like all the wood bits could be glass, or maybe aluminum? Putting glass over wood seems like an awful idea to me.

 

[Lou C]

But it's cheap and relatively strong
Cheap is the operative word
Wood/Glass boats can last a long time, they have to use proper construction techniques, of sealing up everything and all the penetrations to mount seats, etc. And NOT gluing carpet on the plywood/'glass deck, which just traps moisture and causes much of the rot.
Foam/glass boats as most are made now a days, can have problems too, water can get in and freeze and cause delaminations and weak areas. The foam doesn't "rot" but it can deteriorate, the plywood is strong and can flex enough so that the joints don't fracture which can happen in foam core boats.
Wood/glass boats that rot, it is usually due to shortcuts, not sealing edges, corners, any penetrations etc. Poor construction, is also a probem with foam/glass boats. Storing any boat out of the weather, is a great idea if you can do it.
I just won't ever again buy any old boat, not wood/glass, not foam/glass or alu either. Don't want any more projects.
Meanwhile I have a 20 year old Walker bay 10' boat and a 15 year old 8' that have been out on the beach for all their years, no maintenance, still like new if a bit oxidized. Some type of plastic, that is nearly indestructible (heavy as all get out as well), maybe the same stuff that Triumph/Logic boats were made of....

 

[Scott Danforth]

Words of wisdom! Actually I'm hoping and praying I don't end up in a project like this. My goal is to simply avoid a project, but beginning to think any glass boat over 10 years old likely is starting to deteriorate. I had no idea a fiberglass boat had so much wood in it. Doesn't anyone make a truly fiberglass boat? It seems like all the wood bits could be glass, or maybe aluminum? Putting glass over wood seems like an awful idea to me.

most boats made in the last 10-15 years are primarily fiberglass stringer tubs glued into the hulls.

now instead of wood rot, you have failing glue joints

boats still are designed to last 15 years and be replaced.

companies used wood because it was cheap.

remember, the primary reason a company makes a boat is not for it to last more than 15 years, however to make the most profit they can and not have it fail within the warranty period.

 

[LaqueRatt]

Guess boats really lead a hard life when you think about it. All that bouncing around probably will eventually make any joint fail no matter what it's made out of. So many ways for moisture to sneak in. I'll bet a big outboard bouncing around and pushing on a transom might inevitably destroy that as well.

So how do you find a good one, other than buy a late model? It's fun to fix stuff up, but don't think I'm up for gutting a boat. What's the first thing to look for, soft floors? Cracks in transom?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Guess boats really lead a hard life when you think about it. All that bouncing around probably will eventually make any joint fail no matter what it's made out of. So many ways for moisture to sneak in. I'll bet a big outboard bouncing around and pushing on a transom might inevitably destroy that as well.

So how do you find a good one, other than buy a late model? It's fun to fix stuff up, but don't think I'm up for gutting a boat. What's the first thing to look for, soft floors? Cracks in transom?

Transoms rot years before the floor ever gets soft

Only way to know for sure is to buy a much, much newer hull than the ones you're looking at.

Again, any fiberglass boat under $5k is a project and should be looked at like it needs a full gut-n-restore

During COVID, that number was $15000

 

[tpenfield]

Guess boats really lead a hard life when you think about it. All that bouncing around probably will eventually make any joint fail no matter what it's made out of. So many ways for moisture to sneak in. I'll bet a big outboard bouncing around and pushing on a transom might inevitably destroy that as well.

So how do you find a good one, other than buy a late model? It's fun to fix stuff up, but don't think I'm up for gutting a boat. What's the first thing to look for, soft floors? Cracks in transom?

I think it is important to understand how boats are made, or how a boat that you are considering was made.

Wood core structure? Foam Core?
Foam compartments?
Aluminum Fuel tank or plastic?
Engine mounting?

All these things would indicate what & where to look to see signs of problems.

Older boats may have lived a hard life. Think about if you had a 20-30 year old car that was left outside with the windows open, the hood up, and the trunk lid raised. What would it look like and what would the issues be? That's the treatment that some boats get later on in their life.

 

[LaqueRatt]

I think it is important to understand how boats are made, or how a boat that you are considering was made.

Wood core structure? Foam Core?
Foam compartments?
Aluminum Fuel tank or plastic?
Engine mounting?

All these things would indicate what & where to look to see signs of problems.

Older boats may have lived a hard life. Think about if you had a 20-30 year old car that was left outside with the windows open, the hood up, and the trunk lid raised. What would it look like and what would the issues be? That's the treatment that some boats get later on in their life.

Actually a few years ago I found a low mile early model Camaro that was almost like you describe. It was in a garage, but one that was falling down and wet. Man was that a ton of work. Never again. I couldn't pass it up though when it was offered to me for free. I'm determined not to make a similar mistake with a boat.

Maybe I'm a fool, but I was thinking glass like aluminum would last forever. All these sweet "looking" boats for cheap cheap had me wondering though. If all they needed was a little upholstery work and maybe some engine repairs how come they're being sold for little more than the trailer is worth? Now I get it. Thanks for the edjimication mateys. This site rocks.

 

[mickyryan]

i love my i/o i put a ls in it instead of using a old gen engine and its very nice thing will idle all day at 600 rpm trolling along im presently working on a outboard and constantly wish it was a I/0 lol but it is what it is, just parts are soo damn expensive for outboards.

 

[Jeff Fro]

My boat was free, with a trailer, but no I/O. Bought a Mercruiser 260 with an Alpha out drive for $400 from a guy in a storage unit. Figured it turns over, at least it was an ok core, lower unit turned and shifted.

I got lucky, the motor fired on fresh gas dumped in the carb. Replaced the carb, fuel pump, couple of bearings in the Alpha unit, I was golden. Once the boat was cut out of the trees, it actually had very little wood to even rot in it.

Video 1

Video 2

 

[LaqueRatt]

I got to hand it to you guys who restore these old glass boats. I also see advantages to I/Os, especially the HP per $$$ ratio. Honestly I don't really get why larger outboard motors are so damned expensive. Also cheaper parts is a great benefit. Seems to me though these boats are almost disposable. That is to say any glass boat more than a few years old is likely something to be avoided. Is this an unfair assessement?

 

[Lou C]

Outboard parts are expensive for several reasons, one is the market for outboard engines is smaller than the market for auto derived I/O engines, also they are more advanced in terms of technology than old school inboard GM engines, until recently that is. Light weight and higher performance are the benefits, they weigh less and can rev higher due to more advance engine design, that all costs money. The same hp outboard can cruise at a higher speed due to the more advanced valve train that allows the higher revs without excessive engine wear. They are less trouble and much easier to winterize, and safer as well (no concern with fumes in the bilge, no bellows to fail, no cooling system hoses leak and flood the bilge with sea water if a cooling system hose fails. And since 2009-10 or so, most inboards & I/Os are saddled with cat coverter exhaust, this I would avoid at all costs, because they are troublesome with O2 sensor codes due to wet exhaust and VERY expensive to repair. For all those reasons I won't have another I/O.
As far as 'glass boats, there are too many variables to generalize. How well made it was in the first place and how well the owner maintained it are very significant factors.
If you see a 'glass boat left out in the open, full of leaves, etc and with plywood decks covered with carpet, run like hell. Those boats will turn to junk in a short time, less than 10 years in a damp climate, they would last longer in a dry climate. Would you build a plywood deck on the back of your house and cover it with carpet? Of course not!
When I re-did mine 15 years ago, I threw all the carpet in the trash and had the deck gelcoated in non skid gel. Also it is kept covered all the time. And all the holes drilled for seats, were filled with 3m 4200. That kind of construction, with proper care, can last.

 

[mickyryan]

I got to hand it to you guys who restore these old glass boats. I also see advantages to I/Os, especially the HP per $$$ ratio. Honestly I don't really get why larger outboard motors are so damned expensive. Also cheaper parts is a great benefit. Seems to me though these boats are almost disposable. That is to say any glass boat more than a few years old is likely something to be avoided. Is this an unfair assessement?

it all depends who owned it if the person cared about the boat it should be fine , lots of new boat owners don't even know how to store a trailer boat correctly and wind up causing their own issues cheap boats would still never rot if they weren't left full of water just like very well made boats will turn into pieces of **** if not cared for , just the way it is.

 

[LaqueRatt]

I've bought and sold a lot of cars. It's pretty much the same kind of deal. Neglected cars can drain your wallet, but the rare owner who actually took care of a car is who you want to buy from. I'm pretty good at knowing what to look for in used cars, but not boats. How do you find hidden rot? Can you smell it? I know if it's real bad the floor will likely be soft. Is a bad transom obvious too? I don't see myself buying a new glass boat, but if I stumble upon a well-taken care of older one I'd like to be able to identify it. Are there "good" and "bad" brands or is the quality similar for most?

 

[zool]

I've bought and sold a lot of cars. It's pretty much the same kind of deal. Neglected cars can drain your wallet, but the rare owner who actually took care of a car is who you want to buy from. I'm pretty good at knowing what to look for in used cars, but not boats. How do you find hidden rot? Can you smell it? I know if it's real bad the floor will likely be soft. Is a bad transom obvious too? I don't see myself buying a new glass boat, but if I stumble upon a well-taken care of older one I'd like to be able to identify it. Are there "good" and "bad" brands or is the quality similar for most?

Were getting to the point now where the boats manufactured with all composite materials in the hull are 20 years or more older. You can research when brands changed to comp and look for neglected examples. Then u will mostly be just dealing with mechanical deferred maintenance and repairs, plus wiring, hoses, and gel coat. Stuff u can tinker with here and there. I see mid 2000's boats under 3 grand with bad upholstery, unchanged exhaust manifolds, dirty carbs, ect. They have to be cheap or they wont sell.

 

[Scott Danforth]

I've bought and sold a lot of cars. It's pretty much the same kind of deal. Neglected cars can drain your wallet, but the rare owner who actually took care of a car is who you want to buy from. I'm pretty good at knowing what to look for in used cars, but not boats. How do you find hidden rot? Can you smell it? I know if it's real bad the floor will likely be soft. Is a bad transom obvious too? I don't see myself buying a new glass boat, but if I stumble upon a well-taken care of older one I'd like to be able to identify it. Are there "good" and "bad" brands or is the quality similar for most?

If the boat was wiped down with a diaper after every use, the price range will reflect that

Most fiberglass boat owners do not understand how to care for a boat

Brand only matters on the showroom floor. After it rolls out of the showroom, care and maintenance are what matters. That translates to condition years later

 

[garbageguy]

...That is to say any glass boat more than a few years old is likely something to be avoided. Is this an unfair assessement?

I'd say that's a fair assessment because you included the word "likely". There are many, many variables

 

[LaqueRatt]

Were getting to the point now where the boats manufactured with all composite materials in the hull are 20 years or more older. You can research when brands changed to comp and look for neglected examples.

At the risk of sounding stupid, what do you mean by composite materials? Wood AND glass I'm thinking. Are you saying 20 year and older boats are better than newer ones? I must have it backwards.

 

[Scott Danforth]

At the risk of sounding stupid, what do you mean by composite materials? Wood AND glass I'm thinking. Are you saying 20 year and older boats are better than newer ones? I must have it backwards.

He is saying that full composite boats with stringer tubs (no wood) are getting to be 20 years old

However they are still designed to last about 15 years

 

[zool]

At the risk of sounding stupid, what do you mean by composite materials? Wood AND glass I'm thinking. Are you saying 20 year and older boats are better than newer ones? I must have it backwards.

What i was saying is that some production boats that were built with all glass stringers and non rotting transoms are around now relatively cheap, as neglect has taken them over just like the old ones that were tossed in the yard and uncovered or poorly covered. The damage to these is not structural, but cosmetic and/or mechanical.

Its alot less expensive and time consuming to restore a boat without having to remove and replace stringers, bulkheads, and transoms. Most times even the engine/drive assembly can remain in place