My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

[jbcurt00]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Re: water flow in the bilge, and pourable foam

It is often something you need to decide for yourself: This is what you think will work, be feasible to construct & install, and satisfy your concerns.

I am on the fence, mainly for the fact that the foam will (in theory) expand to fill any compartment you pour it into, and adhere to any below deck surface it comes into contact w/. Filling the area & adhering to the below deck surface, makes it difficult to imagine water reaching a central flow channel or the bilge.

Trooper did the pourable foam, and used upside down 1/2 PVC pipes to create channels in his foam, directing water towards a central drain area back thru the bilge......

Others have done similar & different, all in an attempt to create a way for water to flow back to the bilge. I do not have any real help, sorry.

Your plan certainly sounds like a good one, as long as you make allowance for water to gain entry to the channel in several places along it's length.

 

[sphelps]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

I kinda like the stacked on edge rigid foam that pmc did on his SN . Cut a path down the middle for water flow . Takes a little time but seems like it would help in deck strength if cut even with top of stringers . Just a thought ..:hat:

 

[Deleted member 340796]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

I kinda like the stacked on edge rigid foam that pmc did on his SN . Cut a path down the middle for water flow . Takes a little time but seems like it would help in deck strength if cut even with top of stringers . Just a thought ..:hat:

sphelps, I don't believe I have seen his foam method. Thanks, I will look at his and see what he did.

Re: water flow in the bilge, and pourable foam

It is often something you need to decide for yourself: This is what you think will work, be feasible to construct & install, and satisfy your concerns.

I am on the fence, mainly for the fact that the foam will (in theory) expand to fill any compartment you pour it into, and adhere to any below deck surface it comes into contact w/. Filling the area & adhering to the below deck surface, makes it difficult to imagine water reaching a central flow channel or the bilge.

Trooper did the pourable foam, and used upside down 1/2 PVC pipes to create channels in his foam, directing water towards a central drain area back thru the bilge......

Others have done similar & different, all in an attempt to create a way for water to flow back to the bilge. I do not have any real help, sorry.

Your plan certainly sounds like a good one, as long as you make allowance for water to gain entry to the channel in several places along it's length.

jb, you are more help than you know. I like what Trooper did with his. I also heard oops (if I am recalling correctly) enclosed his foam in plastic. I have been thinking of doing the poured foam, lay plastic in each compartment then pour the foam PRIOR to installing the deck. If need be (and I don't know if it is needed) I can use a piece of scrap wood as the simulated deck with a hole to pour thru. Once the foam is in and set up I was thinking I would remove it, shave off a thin layer of the foam to allow for water to flow under it, then replace the foam in that compartment. So that the water makes it below the foam I thought that the thin layer I take off could also be angled to direct water to the lowest point, which would be a corner and Shave a small area off of that corner.

Seems like a lot of artistic shaping of the foam for water, but then again the goal in all this boat renovation is to tap into my artistic side! :whoo:

Seriously though, is there any structural reason the channel would not be a good idea?

I think I am a little nervous getting to the stringers cause I seem to be looking for reasons to push off that next step. Hmmm, wonder what that is about? :ambivalence:

 

[Trooper82]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

AJ, I understand your concerns....I sat in the bottom of my hull for hours in the 110+ heat...thinking...skeeming...in the end....it was just a matter of doing it. Make sure you have a plan from start to finish...then go for it! We'll all be here to cheer you on for sure...

The way I see the water/foam issues....water will find a way...no matter how small the opening it will works it's wat as far down as it can go...I just tried to give it a path on mine...I kinda combined what opps! did with completely bagging the foam...I wanted the best of both worlds...foam that adhered to deck sub-surface and the hull/stringers...I accomplished it with laying down plastic with a big hole cut out of the center of the section/area I laid it in. The water will find a way through...and I get the added srength of the foam gluing to the surfaces....any way you decide I'm sure it will be fine...In hind site...I wish I had cut 2 holes in each section of the deck when I poured...I reallly think the stuff needs an escape rout for the air pressure that builds up as it expands...I did a little experiment on it...just mix a small amount on a cup...as it starts to expand...cover it with a gloved hand so no aire can get out...it stops expanding...give it some where for the air to go and it keeps expanding...

 

[Deleted member 340796]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Trooper,

Awesome news. Thanks so much for your thoughts and encouragement. I am feeling better already about doing it. I guess as long as the boat is strong, there is not just 1 right answer. Ok, today is looking nice so I am going to take the stringers out and do a more precise measurement of where they need to be cut down. Maybe just taking that first step will make it feel better.

How are things coming along for you in the move? We are going to start house shopping after the first of the year. So I will be back and forth between Dec and Jan, but I am hoping to do the actual move in Feb sometime. :juggle: Time to get our family back together. Oh and our dogs say it is time they get a doggie door and loose the stairs. layful:

 

[Deleted member 340796]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Thanks to everyone for keeping me going. I finally got over my hurdle today and started measuring for stringers. Here are some photos. On the photo with 4 stringers - if you can imagine the 2 inner ones having wood between them, making them an upside down U - that is the plan. I still have to cut the height down on the left most stringer, will use 2 other boards that are taller for the center stringers. It is further than I thought I would get today.

let me know your thoughts or if you see any issues. Thanks.

 

[sphelps]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

So I guess you plan to pour foam inside the U shaped section . Do you think water could get trapped in there somehow ? Maybe drill some drain holes for water to escape ? But then how would you keep the foam out .. Hmmmm maybe some of the others will have plan . People have put foam in so many ways there,s no telling which is the best .

 

[TruckDrivingFool]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Glad to see you made it over the hurdle and got some progress AJ.

If I remember right from reading from Oops, He put down pipe cut n half, then plastic, did his pour, pulled plastic wrapped blocks back out and removed the pipes. That's how he accomplished drainage under the foam. The pipe created channels and the plastic wrap was originally just there as a release agent that ended up being beneficial.

 

[GT1000000]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Great step forward...don't forget to allow for the gap between the stringers and the hull...

 

[Pmccraney]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Nice progress AJ! Thanks for swinging through my thread... Looks like your plans are coming together...

I may have to stop by at some point and check out ur progress in person....

Take care and keep at it..

 

[Decker83]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Looks like you made some good progress. I'm like jbc about the foam. I'm on the fence. The foam seals up everything and dosn't let the water drain very well. The new pour in foam is supost to be better than the old foam like they used in my boat.
Trooper did a good job with his and Opps did a good job also. I like your ideal about the U chanel too. That could work as well as any I have seen. Keep up the good work. Trooper made a good point about a relief hole for the foam. You should use a temporary deck when pouring your foam. I don't think it's a good ideal to shave or cut or sand the foam after it has cured.

 

[Deleted member 340796]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

sphelps, No the u channel would be part of the path for the water to get to the bilge area. The pour foam would be on the outside of the u channel. I plan to use PVC and cut it in half just like Trooper did and attach it to the area of the stringers and ribs that get cut out to allow water to flow thru them. My thought, much like what I think Trooper thought is if water does get below the deck and is being guided through those areas over and over there is a higher likelihood that it will break down first and rot would begin there. That is also how I got to the U channel upside down, because with the center stringer going right down the middle and lowest point in the boat - there could be water sitting there.

Honestly, I doubt seriously the water will be an issue. I think Wood said it best when he says these boats are going to be like tanks when we are done with them. However, I did notice and have pictures of the area leading from the keel (if I used that properly - meaning the center most bottom of the boat) around the center stringer that had clearly been exposed to water and obviously led to rot. I think another source of the rot to the transom were some of the holes that went thru the transom. I don't think they sealed them after drilling them. My boat is a 1970 model and the rot was so bad the longest stringer piece that even resembled a piece of wood was about 36". The transom I was able to peal off by hand. I did not need any tools at all to remove the transom. That is where my thoughts come from when I am looking to direct the water flow.

As far as the foam, it would be great to have the noise minimized, but the real reason I will be using it is to slow the sinking of the boat should it become compromised. For that reason I thought the pour foam would be best. I think Decker mentioned NOT shaving the foam after it sets up. Not sure why that is, but I could just build a compartment the size and shape I want it to be in the end, line it with plastic; and then pour the foam. Then I should be able to close the plastic to seal the foam in and lift it out of that mold and put it in the boat where it is to go.

Am I really just way over thinking this whole foam and water flow thing? See the pictures of the center stringer/bilge area that I was describing.

 

[Pmccraney]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

The foam thing is tough... Its sort of a double edge sword... You need flotation in your boat for safety reasons, and it often (especially for many fg boats) plays a key structural role as well. However, with those good things, comes the bad: It sometimes traps water against the stringers and transom... Water will get in there at some point...

I like the way Trooper did his foam job (he has a video on his thread showing how he did this)... The reason some folks (me included) get a rash over shaving or cutting the foam is that it is "closed cell" foam (which helps considerably in keeping it from getting water logged like a sponge). When you gut this stuff you can see that the outside layer (exposed to air) cures differently (its more smooth). When you shave it, your reveal the inner structure which seems to have a slightly different consistency (more porous, sponge-like). So, folks are worried that when you cut this stuff, you may be undoing some of the closed cell properties that make this stuff great. I have nothing scientific to support that theory (and could be wrong)...., but I am just basing it on what I have seen removing foam from a couple of boats...

 

[snowman48047]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

So, folks are worried that when you cut this stuff, you may be undoing some of the closed cell properties that make this stuff great. I have nothing scientific to support that theory (and could be wrong)...., but I am just basing it on what I have seen removing foam from a couple of boats...

There is no "you may be indoing...", it is "you WILL be undoing..."

This is 100% correct. If you use pour in it will work but DO NOT cut it. It basically becomes a sponge if the "closed cells" are opened. The skin that forms is completely waterproof but you will loose it if ANYTHING opens even a little hole, like a screw for new decking. I don't like this stuff because it will eventually fail from ponding through waves and slight flexing and vibration. Your better off with blue or pink sheet foam IMO.

 

[Deleted member 340796]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Pm, thanks that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation.

Snowman, thanks for stopping in and for the information. So it sounds like CLOSED cell is what I want. Now to just decide which to go with. I will read a little more, might even buy a bit of each and do some tests. Sounds fun. Maybe in January I can set up an experiment with pink, blue and pour foam; preparing each and place each on water with no protection around them and see what happens over time when they are exposed to water. :surprise: Ok, so I have read about some foams having different qualities (ie; 2lb, 4lb, etc) what are the different types and what is the best for putting in the boat? I ask because, 1) I need to know, and 2) when I test them I want a fair test that tests the same qualities across the board if possible. Do the pink and blue sheet foam have the same qualities or is one better than the other? How do they compare to the pour foam?

Thanks.

 

[TruckDrivingFool]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

The plastic foam materials are usually available in different densities and different forms. The density refers to the weight of the foam per cubic foot of material. In order to determine the net value for flotation purposes, the weight of the foam per cubic foot must be deducted from the weight of the water per cubic foot. For example, salt water weighs about 64 lbs. per cubic foot, and fresh water about 62 1/2 lbs. per cubic foot.
If the foam being used weighs 2 lbs. per cubic foot, this will leave a net flotation value of 62 lbs. per cubic foot if the boat is used in salt water, and a net flotation value of 60 1/2 lbs. per cubic foot when the boat is used in fresh water. It can readily be seen that the lighter the density of foam used, the higher the flotation value per cubic foot of volume.

You can read more here but that answers one of your questions. The heavier/denser the foam the more structural support you'll get but you lose some in flotation value.

 

[snowman48047]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Yes closed cell foam is what you want to use. However, maybe I wasn't clear. If you use pour in foam, which is closed cell, then you cut, slice, puncture, or drill into that foam you open the cells. The skin that forms while curing is what closes off all the cells.

That being said, most would be way better off pouring a thousand golfball sized blobs of this stuff than one huge 2-3-4 cup mix. This would keep 98% of the smaller "balls" of foam totally intact and not allow water intrusion. The problem is that it is completely impractical and way too time consuming.

My dad built a 22 foot cuddy from the keel up and used the 2lb foam. This is the foam generally used for floatation. The 4lb is a bit more dense and is generally used for building molds/plugs. I have been using the 2lb for duck decoys for 30 years.

If you cut open a section of the pour in, the pink, and the blue foam you will see that the cells of the pink and blue foam are tiny compared to the pour in stuff. You can place pieces of all 3 in a 5 gallon bucket and just let it sit. The results might surprise... I will never use pour in foam in a boat again.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

Cuts on closed cell foam can be fixed by painting over the cut to make it waterproof again, 2 coats of paint and you're good to go again... epoxy resin will work well too.

 

[Decker83]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

I don't think that just any paint would water proof the foam after it has been cut. Latex water paint may not work to well..

If you plan out how you want to use the foam, you should be able to pour the foam in the hull and be able to use a temporary deck if needed.. Then make whatever changes you need to the foam and put down the deck and glass it in.
The boat is 42 yrs old now. How long did the stringers and transom last? How long do you plan on owning this boat?
If you do a good job on glassing the transom and stringers and deck it will last another 30 yrs with no problems by just pouring your foam with no special drains or channels in the foam.
Just my 2 cents worth..:wave:

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: My first boat restoration, I need some guidance - PLEASE HELP!

2lb foam is all you need. If you want to create drainage channels to the bilge I'd use saran wrapped rope. Lay the rope in the hull and out throu through the pour holes in the front of the deck. Pour the foam in each section and just as it sets up put the rope out which will create a channel.to the bilge. Hope this makes sense. Just my 2?.