Moral delima

[jtexas]

Re: Moral delima

His behavior outside the charges? You could speak to that in good conscience. You can decline in good conscience. But you've figured that out already.<br /><br />How to tell your friends? "Sorry, it's just not something I'm comfortable doing. Is there anything else I can do to help you?" Just hope they can handle it & remain your friends. I bet they have no shortage of character witnesses, though.<br /><br /><br />BTW, Barlow, "truly sick and in need of punishment." If he's truly sick then what he's in need of is treatment. I mean, he deserves punishment, but lock 'im up for ____ years [fill in the blank], he'll still be sick when he gets out. That's why I'm uncomfortable with "sex offender registration" laws. If they're still a danger to children, then why in the world are they out of jail? And if they're not, then why keep punishing 'em?

 

[Barlow]

Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by jtexas:<br /> ...<br />...<br /><br />BTW, Barlow, "truly sick and in need of punishment." If he's truly sick then what he's in need of is treatment. I mean, he deserves punishment, but lock 'im up for ____ years [fill in the blank], he'll still be sick when he gets out. That's why I'm uncomfortable with "sex offender registration" laws. If they're still a danger to children, then why in the world are they out of jail? And if they're not, then why keep punishing 'em?

jt I agree I just didn't expound that far.. and ditto on the laws .. its a twisted socialistic 'protection device' to warn locals .. I'm a fence sitter there too

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by neumanns:<br /> If you were hired to defend this creep I would understand your obligations; but why would you defend him by your own free will? Guess it all comes down to his act's arn't that bad by your standards.<br /><br />I guess your and my standards are diffrent.

Free will and my standards don't enter into it.<br /><br />It's about duty.<br /><br />As a lawyer I have several duties: to the courts; to my clients; and to the law. All of these are an abstract collection of principles which guide the views I have expressed in earlier posts.<br /><br />One of my duties is to represent clients with unpopular cases, and to advance their cases without regard to my own interests.<br /><br />My standards are irrelevant to and might well be opposed to those of the people I represent.<br /><br />For example, I despise people who think they can take someone else's property just because they want it, even if they're pressed by a need to convert my DVD into a fluid they can shove up their arm. <br /><br />Despite that, I've been burgled several times but I represent burglars. I was burgled by one of my own clients, but neither of us realised it until after an unrelated case was over. The little p r i c k still hasn't returned the goods he promised to return in 1978 - I'm beginning to think he won't. I've also got some burglars off charges I'm pretty sure they committed. And more cases where I'm pretty sure the cops have loaded my clients up with unsolved cases to improve the clear up rate.<br /><br />Some of my standards are that people shouldn't burgle and steal and police shouldn't lie.<br /><br />But I'd defend anyone accused of burglary or a cop accused of dishonesty with equal vigour.<br /><br />The fact that I may regard any act my client is accused of as bad or wrong is irrelevant to my duty to examine the evidence dispassionately and scrupulously and to advise and represent them accordingly.<br /><br />I am not an organ of government but the very opposite. I am not a judge of morals. I am not the angel of vengeance. I am nothing but the legally informed agent of my client who puts my skills at his or her disposal in accordance with his or her instructions, and within the limits imposed by my various duties to the courts, the law, my colleagues.

 

[ehenry]

Re: Moral delima

tink, show me the inconsistency. Point it out to me. Make me understand why a man thats admitted to the crime shouldn't expect to get the full sentance.

 

[neumanns]

Re: Moral delima

I still contend it is a matter of taking corners, anyone in his corner is in the wrong corner. Unless there by proffesional obligation.<br /><br />Simply stated by defending him (ie: saying what a wonderful guy he is) you are approving of his action.

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by efhenry:<br /> tink, show me the inconsistency. Point it out to me. Make me understand why a man thats admitted to the crime shouldn't expect to get the full sentance.

The full sentence for what?<br /><br />The law usually presribes maximum sentences, which are supposed to apply to the worst imaginable occurrence of the offence.<br /><br />So we have an offence of sexual penetration of a minor. Consent is not a defence.<br /><br />Sexual penetration includes digital penetration, to the least degre.<br /><br />A minor is anyone under a given age, say 18.<br /><br />The maximum sentence is, say, 20 years.<br /><br />Case A. A bloke grabs a four year old girl off the street and has full intercourse after bashing the kid senseless. She suffers serious internal damage from the rape which will involve surgery every year or two until her late teens.<br /><br />Case B. A bloke has consensual sex with a girl one week before her 18th birthday.<br /><br />The charge is identical in both cases.<br /><br />Do they both deserve the maximum penalty of 20 years?<br /><br />Apart from that, why should someone who's admitted to an offence get the maximum penalty?<br /><br />Shouldn't we look at the gravity of their offence as the starting point?<br /><br />If shoplifting a $1 item is theft and taking $1,000,000 as the corrupt CEO of a company is theft, should the shoplifter get the same penalty as the CEO? <br /><br />Shouldn't we also look at the circumstances?<br /><br />Say the shoplifter was an intellectually disabled 20 year old who was grabbing a sausage to give to a seeing eye trainee pup the shoplifter had fallen in love with outside the store?<br /><br />And the CEO had everything that opens and shuts but just wanted more.<br /><br />So we come to the terrible "child molester". The maximum sentence is 20 years. The 10 second grope on the 12 y.o. gets the maximum of 20 years because all offenders must get the max. What do you do with the full intercourse by the step-uncle which has the kid in hospital with internal injuries and 15 years of surgery?<br /><br />Anyway, this thread isn't really about punishment but about giving a letter stating your knowledge of the offender. I'd still do it.

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by neumanns:<br /> I still contend it is a matter of taking corners, anyone in his corner is in the wrong corner. Unless there by proffesional obligation.<br /><br />Simply stated by defending him (ie: saying what a wonderful guy he is) you are approving of his action.

Stating your knowledge of someone is not the same as defending them. Nor does it approve of their action.<br /><br />DD's statement in his OP states his knowledge of the offender while condemning the action.<br /><br /> I know he is a decent man on the outside, attends church every sunday and is very active, cares about his community, a very hard worker for his age. BUT he deserves to be punished for what he has done other than the embarassment of getting caught. <br /><br />Why am I spending all this time trying to hold back the floodgates of righteous anger? <br /><br />It's 5.45 a.m. and I'm trying to work on a real case, fer Chrissake!

 

[ehenry]

Re: Moral delima

Tink, you aren't comparing apples to apples here. You arent pointing out inconsistencies with DD's post, which is what I'm asking for. There is no case a, b, or c. Read DD's post. I want you to point out the inconsistency that you say is there. So far you haven't. The man pleaded to save his own hide and to save his family the embarrassment of being dragged through the courts in his home town over something that he's done. We know he did it he addmitted to it. <br /><br />What I see in DD's post is two attorneys have gotten together and said:<br /><br />Defense - " My client will plead to 3 counts if you'll drop the other 5"<br /><br />Prosecutor - "Hey, sounds like a plan to me. Want to t-off at same time this afternoon?"<br /><br />Where is the inconsitency?

 

[achris]

Re: Moral delima

Hi DD,<br /><br />Yes, you're in a very difficult position. I wouldn't want to be there. <br /><br />Here's another suggestion. Tell the wife that you would like her to go and talk to some victims of the sort of acts that her husband has committed (not his victims), then see if she still wants you to write that letter. <br /><br />Chris............

 

[demsvmejm]

Re: Moral delima

I have no pity for any person who abuses a child, in any fashion. This is probably the worst way a person could abuse a child.<br />I think he should be subjected to a gold ole fashioned weenie roast. If ya'll don't know what it is , take him into the woods, NAIL his weenie to a stump and set the stump on fire. Give him a rusty can lid. Let him choose. His victims didn't have a choice.<br />But realistically, I think these types of predators should be castrated, literally, physically. It was a grandchild this time. Next time the next door neighbor, or a great grandchild? And was this the "first time", or haven't the first victims come forward? Even if it is an isolated victim and would never happen again, this child has been traumatized, and this victim had no choice. Grandpa loves me and wouldn't hurt me. Betrayal of aninnocent child's trust is inexcusable, no matter how much of a saint you are in all other aspects of life.<br /><br />I am sorry you were put in such a position. If she were truly your friend she NEVER would have asked you. I am sorry.

 

[deputydawg]

Re: Moral delima

Tinkerer I do respect your profession. There are a lot of shady dishonest corrupt lawyers in the world that ruin the profession for everyone else. It would be hard to defend some of the people you are required to defend, but everyone has certain rights. Every suspect deserves to have their rights defended. My job is to find all of the facts in a case, determine if these facts are accurate, look at it from all angles, then report all I know to the courts. If I make a mistake somewhere then the suspect deserves to have that brought out. Civil rights are the root of our entire countries beliefs. All men are created equal and innocent until proven guilty. <br />In this case the man admitted immediately what he had done, and knew it was wrong. I believe he is more sorry about being caught and embarrassed by everyone knowing. His pleading guilty was due in part to finances. Here lawyers get between $120 and $200 an hour for their services. He has sold half of his family farm to pay his legal fees. He told his family this is the main point in deciding to plead guilty. The other reson and an afterthought was to keep the children out of court as witnesses. The State here always offers plea bargains. The district attorney has lost his assistant position due to county budget cuts. He is prosecuting over 800 criminal cases a year so most if not all get a plea offer before trial. The plea agreement is strictly financial from the States point of view. He took the agreement both to save himself money and to get rid of the gamble that a trial to the court can sometimes be. <br />In all likeliehood he will not get a harsh punishment. He is 63 and has never had so much as a speeding ticket in his life. The charge was 3rd degree sexual assault meaning unwanted touching of the intimate parts. <br />His wife has stuck with him through all of this. The problem is I think she has taken part of the guilt on herself. He is a very dominant man with his family. <br />My mind is made up, I can't write a letter. If the family asks why I will tell them. They asked the letters be sent directly to the judge, so they will probably never know if I did or not. But if they do ask I will explain that I couldn't do it. They will be sentencing the man not his actions, but still he did this and deserves something in the form of punishment. If he gets off easy it will be victimizing the children a second time. <br />Good comments here from everyone, thanks for the support and good thoughts.

 

[Realgun]

Re: Moral delima

Tell her that in good concious you cannot write the letter. No need to explain. Its up to you and how you feel not up to her. In all honesty she should never have asked in the first place.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Moral delima

Reading this topic makes me think this is not a family oriented topic. True it needs to be discussed and I feel for DD's moral delima. However, I have seen posts poofed for a lot less.<br /><br />Uneducated children are the ones at risk here. Educate your children about these perverts and how to take charge. It is mainly a control thought process of the offender. When the control is taken away and they know their victim knows what is going on, then their efforts are haulted.<br /><br />I feel a simple surgical procedure would benefit society on this issue more than being locked up.<br /><br />DD, My suggestion is not to write a letter, if a question comes about, then say its against your morals to do so.

 

[achris]

Re: Moral delima

I feel a simple surgical procedure would benefit society on this issue more than being locked up.<br />

I think the aforementioned 'surgical procedure' should involve a rope and wooden gantry.<br /><br />Chris.......

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by deputydawg:<br /> My mind is made up, I can't write a letter.

Nor should you if you think it's not right.<br /><br />Sorry I dominated your thread and went off at a tangent. <br /><br />Sometimes my natural inclination to defend the underdog gets the better of me. Sometimes I also stay up too late dealing with work and drink too much while I'm doing it. Being able to touch type at a decent rate doesn't help me refrain from saying more than I should.<br /><br />From my reading of your posts in various threads you strike me a good cop, and a good person, who'll go in to bat for people who deserve it. <br /><br />You're the bloke on the spot in this matter and you know all the facts, factors, and people, so your decision is the best informed one and the only one that counts. You also have to live with yourself. As Shakespeare said, from memory, "This above all. To thine own self be true and thou canst not then be false to any man."<br /><br />As for our respective jobs, I have the luxury of not being up the sharp end and being much more in control of the things I'm dealing with than a cop on the street. I am hardly ever at risk of being physically hurt at work and, with one spectacular exception, have never even shaped up to a client. Sometimes I've felt sorry for a cop I'm slowly pulling apart in cross-examination as we go through every minute detail of a confused and frightening event, like a pub brawl where 2 cops are outnumbered 50 to 1, 12 months earlier when he was more worried about avoiding a broken bottle in the face and a chair in the kidneys than taking careful notes to answer my questions about who was standing where when X happened and how can he identify Y from all the others there. <br /><br />It's all part of the great and glorious legal system, but frankly I think the Europeans might have a better system where it's concerned more with getting to the truth of the matter than battle between opposing sides.

 

[achris]

Re: Moral delima

I am hardly ever at risk of being physically hurt at work and, with one spectacular exception, have never even shaped up to a client.

And?????????????

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by achris:<br />

I am hardly ever at risk of being physically hurt at work and, with one spectacular exception, have never even shaped up to a client.

And?????????????

Mate, it is a long and involved story full of crazy characters and events. I find it hard to believe myself. <br /><br />I don't think this is the thread to give the detailed version.<br /><br />Let's just say that I had the misfortune to act very briefly for a very nasty and manipulative criminal who, in trying to manipulate events to avoid his trial, put me in a position where I was copping it from all sides after I'd ceased to act for him. <br /><br />I was about the only person in the whole performance who hadn't done anything wrong but it looked like I had. I got suckered by another lawyer who fled overseas to get out of it (and who subsequently got brought back by the Crown for the trial and who a dozen years later stole millions from his clients before fleeing overseas again). It happened because I was still green and didn't have the sense to stay out of something when alarm bells were already ringing before I got into it.<br /><br />It was the worst month or so in my career. Other people said I looked like death. I had lost a lot of weight at a time when I wasn't carrying any excess. I feared I was heading for a nervous breakdown because I was just trapped in this situation controlled by this little turd for his own benefit and which threatened my career when it had hardly got off the ground. <br /><br />He pushed me to the point where I did something which made him shape up to me in the office of the lawyer who was then representing him. I knew his gaol record and I knew he could beat me. I decided that I was going to do him some real harm before he got on top of me, but when I shaped up by moving to block his leading hand and drew back to hit him, he went to water and called for protection. <br /><br />Maybe he could see I'd lost it big time and was intent on really hurting him. I'd certainly resolved to use a strike that could have killed him, although in practice it's not usually that successful on a moving head.<br /><br />My one big manly moment as a lawyer!

 

[achris]

Re: Moral delima

nuff said.

 

[JB]

Re: Moral delima

Hey, Nate.<br /><br />When ethics are the question, what other people think of your action is irrelevant.<br /><br />To report on someone's good conduct does not in any way support any bad conduct that may be under judgement.<br /><br />Few judges are that stupid.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Moral delima

No dilema,DD. You allready wrote the letter. Just take the preface off of your original post, and hit print.<br />Let the chips fall where they may. It's a letter from you in it's purest form.