Moral delima

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,722
Re: Moral delima

Ayuh,..........He!! of a Pickle You're In.......<br /><br />I think maybe Ken has a viable option,......<br /><br />Write your letter,... Be Truthful to Your Beliefs,.........<br />Then Offer the letter to the Wife,+ Explain Why you think the way you do............<br />Then let Her decide to either forward it to the Judge,.. Or Trash It........<br /><br />I Totally Agree with the Majority above,......<br />It Sounds like the guy is a Family Manipulator......GOD of His Kingdom............<br /><br />My Lovely Finally put an end to Her 20 Year Slavery, 3 years ago..... Her X is Also a Selfproclaimed GOD.......<br /><br />I've had to Prove My Innocence 4 Times, Already.... Anonymous phone calls to the State 1-800 Childabuse Hotline.....<br />I,+ the county DSS Both Know where the calls come from......<br />Yet, I have No legal recourse......All I can do is Grin,+ Bear it,.......And, Wait for the Next Visit from DSS........<br /><br />It took 2 years to have the kids removed from His care,.... Emotional, Mental,+ Medical Abuse.....<br />Now, they live with Deb,+ I.... The 20 year old daughter Left as Soon as the S--T hit the fan,... the 15 year old son Hates his father...The 13 year old daughter has Issues, that I hope 1 day will be behind her........<br /><br />Sorry I wandered off track,........<br /><br />Do what You Know is Right,..... Then let the chips fall where they may..........<br /><br />Good Luck,+ Stand Tall.............. ;)
 

neumanns

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
1,926
Re: Moral delima

No dilema the way I see it, I have no respect for molestors OR THOSE THAT ENABLE OR PROTECT THEM. My question to the wife would be...why ya gonna stand behind this POS! <br /><br />She has more loyalty to him than her own values or she shares these values??? sounds like a moral dilema for her not you.
 

Tinkerer

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
760
Re: Moral delima

I will probably regret this post, but there's a dangerous degree of hysteria surrounding terms like "child sexual abuse" and "child molester" and "paedophile", which deprives the accused and the offenders of the consideration we give to people with less excuse for calculated crimes like major corporate thefts. And worse crimes against children.<br /><br />I'm certainly going to regret revealing that I'm a lawyer (ooh, aah, lawyers are total *&^%s) who's spent some of the past 30 odd years working both sides of the fence in child and adult sexual abuse claims and cases in criminal, civil and family law courts. The past 16 years I've spent in that worst of all liberal cess pits, legal aid, where we represent the useless, worthless, hopeless and penniless who should be shunted off the face of the planet because they are a drain on its resources second only to legal aid lawyers and other civil libertarians.<br /><br />I've accepted hostility from my own staff and friends and family members who are against even the accused, not the offender, I'm representing in child sexual abuse cases. <br /><br />I've dealt with members of the victim's family I felt like kicking senseless who supported offenders they knew were offending (it's feminist heresy to recognise that some wives sacrifice their daughters to their husbands because it relieves them of sexual activity which they don't wish to engage in, sometimes because of their own scarifying experiences as victims of sexual assault). <br /><br />I've represented victims of sexual assault who in some of the most satisfying moments of my career have hugged me after we've won their trial and I've felt their and their grateful parents' tears running down my neck, while I'm suppressing my own. <br /><br />I've spent more nights than I want to remember going to bed at 2 a.m. preparing a case and waking up at 3.30 a.m. to do some of my best work lying in bed until daylight before going to court. <br /><br />I've acted for blokes who've clearly been baselessly accused of incest by vengeful wives. I've acted for blokes who say that's the case and I'm not sure. I've acted for blokes who I have little doubt probably did what they were accused of. I've acted for some loathesome blokes who've clearly done it and have no compunction about denying it. I've acted for blokes who were found guilty in criminal or family law cases, and I've never felt that one of those findings was wrong, unlike some others in those jurisdictions. I've acted for blokes who admitted the offences from the first interview with me and the police and I've done the best I could to present the good about them to the court, including relying upon letters like the one sought in the OP.<br /><br />I've also acted for women who were clearly fitting up a bloke with terrible allegations about his alleged offences against their children; women who might have been; women who probably weren't but who had problems in being believed; and women I was sure were telling the truth but probably couldn't prove their allegations. Generally, but by no means always, they get a more sympathetic hearing if there's anything in their favour than the blokes do with as much in their favour.<br /><br />The one thing that is constant in my conduct of all these cases, on both sides of the fence, is that my client is entitled to have their case put before the court to the best of my ability. As is my opponent's client. <br /><br />If I, or my opponent, refuse to do that because we don't like the client or think they have a lousy case we are exercising the role of the judge without having heard all of the other evidence relevant to the case. <br /><br />A person may be condemned for want of submissions to counter the adverse submissions which will be made by the prosecution with all the resources of the state behind it, while my poor bloody client has me or some other under-resourced individual and nobody else to challenge the power of the state.<br /><br />Until you've dealt with the radical feminist lesbian separatist drones in child protection departments who take child female victims of incest home and introduce them to a new form of abuse when they're vulnerable, you're not in a position to evaluate the bile they pour out in their government funded and sanctioned propaganda about the evils of child sexual abuse.<br /><br />Men are invariably the evil b@stards who must be dealt with, notwithstanding the fact that almost all infant children will be killed by their mothers and the remainder by stepfathers or the latest boyfriend. <br /><br />Even if the poor bloody kid has been tortured for years by these thugs, who themselves are usually very sad and badly damaged people, while child protection stood on the sidelines doing sweet F.A., which is their specialty, these offenders do not attract the outrage of some other sad poor mug who has had a ten second grope in a twelve year old's, girl or boy, crutch. Which, if it was not for the feminist / child sex abuse industry that proclaims this is the worst offence a child can suffer, the kid would probably forget and get over fairly quickly. <br /><br />And no, I'm not condoning it or trivialising it, but given a choice between being a 12 y.o kid living with a 10 second grope on the crutch and a 3 or 5 or even 12 y.o kid under child protection "supervision" who is locked in cupboards for days at a time; fed slop from a dog bowl days apart; routinely burned with cigarettes by mum and her latest boyfriend known to you as "Dad" and belted if you don't call the drunken speed freak thug "Dad"; broken bones from beatings months ago not treated or even recorded until the coroner's inquest on your sad bruised little body; urine burns on your crutch and compacted faeces in your gluteal furrow and surrounds; maggots in your untreated open wounds: and you die from suffocation after being left hogtied and unattended: which kid do you reckon has suffered the greatest abuse and which one deserves the greatest protection?<br /><br />Women abuse children just as badly as men, but usually they don't do it in an overtly sexual fashion so they escape the hysteria that attaches to male sexual offenders. The physical abuse case I outlined in the previous paragraph is a composite of a few cases, but mainly one, where the mother was the prime offender. As often happens in non-sexual abuse cases.<br /><br />But these women get their letters in support to the court, as I believe they should, while the ten second groper is relegated to the death row category undeserving of human consideration because he's a paedophile.<br /><br />Is that fair, when people who do far worse to children don't excite the same outrage and harsh attitudes?
 

LadyFish

Admiral
Joined
Mar 18, 2003
Messages
6,894
Re: Moral delima

The 10 second groper is as demented and guilty in my eyes as the sick ******* that rapes a child. Those thoughts should ever cross their minds in the first place. When its a family member or trusted friend of the family its even worse.<br /><br />Until you're a victim of sexual abuse, whether its once or a dozen times, whether its a groping or forced intercourse, you can't possibly know the depth of destruction it causes within you, the worst being......<br /><br />that you are not believed when you report it.
 

neumanns

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
1,926
Re: Moral delima

A thought provoking read tink: but in my eyes the question in this thread is....A line has drawn in the sand, what corner are you in. A fair trial should be everyone's right. The trial is over, this is the sentancing phase...do we condone his actions or not. Your services are needed in nebraska.<br /><br />As for me I do not approve of his actions.
 

Tinkerer

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
760
Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by LadyFish:<br /> The 10 second groper is as demented and guilty in my eyes as the sick ******* that rapes a child. Those thoughts should ever cross their minds in the first place. <br /><br />Until you're a victim of sexual abuse, whether its once or a dozen times, whether its a groping or forced intercourse, you can't possibly know the depth of destruction it causes within you, the worst being......<br /><br />that you are not believed when you report it.
They may well both be equally "demented".<br /><br />But we sentence people for what they do, not what is in their minds.<br /><br />Abuse of all forms depends upon how you view it.<br /><br />Between the ages of 12 and 14 my father used to make me strip naked before he gave me "boxing lessons" every few weeks or months, depending on how dark he was on the world and how drunk he was.<br /><br />A psychiatrist I was referred to thought this was terribly significant sexual abuse and wanted to spend a couple of years on it. It didn't happen.<br /><br />I don't need any therapy to work out that I'm not happy about it, but I'm not having some mindf*&%^r convert it into something it wasn't. The old man just wanted to belt the sh!t out of me under the guise of giving me a boxing lesson, to take out his frustrations on the world, of which he had more than a few after my first stepmother nicked off with their five kids about 13 years after my mother and the love of my father's life had died. <br /><br />He made me take my clothes off so I couldn't run away and finish the belting early. This was his corruption of military interrogation of prisoners who were stripped naked for the same reason, as well as humiliating them and making them more compliant. <br /><br />Unfortunately he frightened me so much one night that I ran a mile to the police station, naked and bloody, which resulted in the old man having a lengthy involuntary stay in a mental hospital. He never forgave me. <br /><br />I had years of other far worse stuff.<br /><br />Given a choice, I'd prefer he'd rooted me once for five minutes.
 

LadyFish

Admiral
Joined
Mar 18, 2003
Messages
6,894
Re: Moral delima

Different types of abuse, different types of scars, both deep, both permanent.
 

JamesCoste

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 15, 2003
Messages
595
Re: Moral delima

If you write a letter, do as has been mentioned.<br /><br />1. Share that you know the fella and that when he isn't molesting his granddaughter and other children, he is a great guy. <br /><br />2. State what you believe his sentence should be in that same letter. If you believe he should be locked up for 15 years, then state that.<br /><br />I had a buddy who had "consentual" relations with a 15 yo girl who basically seduced him. He, at age 27, succombed to the temptation and now is serving 8 years in prison (and deserves it). This guy should get a lot longer sentence in my opinion.
 

ehenry

Commander
Joined
Jan 6, 2002
Messages
2,393
Re: Moral delima

Anyone who has preyed on the innocense of a child doesn't deserve to be free in society. I dont care how good of a person you think they may be or have been. <br /><br />Lock him up, throw away the key and let him be someones cell boy. Let him be preyed upon like he did that child. Then and only then will he see and come to understand what he did.
 

Fly Rod

Commander
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
2,622
Re: Moral delima

:) I see no Dilima!!! He admitted to 3 counts of sexual abuse, he's "Guilty" !!! I wouldn't write a letter of him being of good character either!!!!<br /><br />Had a simular expearience with a school teacher/electrician!!!! this guy knocked a young girl off her bike and was going to seduce her and luckily a passerby saw it going down and called 911 on cell phone,proceeded to interfer, teacher ran into woods, police nabbed him and sure enough a partition was circulated to write in how nice a guy he was!!! I would not do it!!!! He deserved what he got, "Ten years in jail" !!!! <br /><br />And lets not take this out of context, this guy admitted to it!!! And he didn't want to have to the child thru the court!!! He just didn't want everybody in town to know what he gid to her and for how long!!! It isn't like the ex wife blameing the X-hubby or vice versa!!!! ;) :cool:
 

Barlow

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Messages
1,794
Re: Moral delima

he admitted to it.. guilty, punishment by laws standards.<br /><br />it frustrates the hell outta me that this would happen.. truely sick and in need of a good solid punishment!!!!<br /><br />in response to Tink's post .. a very good formulated opinion.
 

SoulWinner

Commander
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Messages
2,423
Re: Moral delima

How 'bout this, agree to write a letter about what a great guy he is ONLY if they agree that ALL of his victims write letters outlining what he did to them. <br /><br />He was busted on 8 counts of sexual assault, what are the odds that there are fifty more that are not being brought up, or that some of the counts were in fact battery?
 

Tinkerer

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
760
Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by neumanns:<br /> A thought provoking read tink: but in my eyes the question in this thread is....A line has drawn in the sand, what corner are you in. A fair trial should be everyone's right. The trial is over, this is the sentancing phase...do we condone his actions or not. Your services are needed in nebraska.<br /><br />As for me I do not approve of his actions.
It's not a matter of taking corners. <br /><br />That's the last thing lawyers should do, although some of us prefer to work one side of the fence to the other. We're hired guns. We're point and kill robots at the service of our master, subject to the rules which govern the robots and their conflict. <br /><br />Personally, I think DD's offender's offences are only the tip of the iceberg. There's only two types of child sex offenders. The ones who do it only one or a few times under unusual circumstances, and stop. Then the other 99% who don't.<br /><br />The sentencing phase is the stage at which the prosecution and the defence put sentencing submissions before the court. It's still part of the trial process where each side puts their case, except now it's about sentence rather than guilt. (Always a bit difficult having run a "Not Guilty" case to put forward material about why one's client's guilt is diminished by the following factors ...)<br /><br />The court's essential functions in sentencing are, by imposition of penalty, to signify community disapproval of the offence; punish the offender; and deter others from similar offences.<br /><br />The first and third aspects can be performed without any input from the defendant.<br /><br />The second, which is to punish the offender for his crimes, can be the most difficult. <br /><br />In DD's case the offender is outwardly a decent man and objectively a sound contributor to the community. He is entitled to credit for his good works and his representative would want someone to confirm that independently to the court. <br /><br />I can assure you it's a lonely and unconvincing place telling a court what a great bloke your defendant and recently convicted client is when you don't have one bit of anything except what he's told you. It's hard to keep the judge awake.<br /><br />My position, and that of other lawyers and the legal system, is simply one of fairness, or balance. It's necessary to make sure that all relevant aspects are considered.<br /><br />Some years ago I acted in the most miserable case, which still disturbs me when I think about it, where my client had been sexually abusing his daughter for years. From about age 8, he used to go into her bedroom after his wife was asleep and get his daughter to insert carrots and zucchinis etc in his view under torchlight for his gratification. He also did it on short car trips and on other events. I will never forget the occasion where he pulled up the car at night, turned on the interior light, turned to his 14 y.o. daughter in the rear seat, handed her a zucchini and said "You know what this is for.". That was the event which led to her first suicide attempt and police involvement.<br /><br />For reasons I won't go into, it clearly suited the mother during her extended periods of marital unavailability, who told me she had decided to stick with the husband because the 14 y.o. daughter would leave home in a few years but her future was with her husband. Money played a part. <br /><br />I could have throttled the b!tch mother when she sat in front of me and said that so coldly. A few nights later I got a panic call. The daughter had attempted suicide again, which I had warned the parents was a strong risk. It was touch and go. The daughter was not my client, nor did I have any professional duty to her, but I felt I could have kicked the living bejasus out of both parents if they were in front of me.<br /><br />Several months later the father performed a courageous act which got him some favourable press by reporters unaware of his offences against his daughter. I think he got a bravery medal for it.<br /><br />Like everyone else, the man wasn't all bad and could be outstandingly good.<br /><br />I loathed him, but he was entitled to have his best case put before the court.<br /><br />I didn't do it because I wanted the father to suffer greatly for what he had told me he had done to his daughter, because she was going to suffer from his actions for the rest of her life which, on indications at the time, mightn't be much longer.<br /><br />So I flicked this piece of sh!t to another lawyer who hadn't lost objectivity. To my astonishment he didn't go to gaol. Personally, I would have shot the *&#$. For what he did to his daughter anyway, but he wasn't all bad(other kids had a great life) and I couldn't shoot anyone in a fit.<br /><br />That was the last time I acted for a defendant accused of incest.<br /><br />While I have contempt for the bloke in that case and think he got a very much lighter sentence than I would have given him, his sentence is the result of the process which I uphold and am arguing for here: each side puts its material and the court decides. <br /><br />It's not fair or balanced to obliterate the good in a person from the view of a court just because they've done something which is bad.<br /><br />There are commendable views in the major religions about atonement, forgiveness, and redemption. It's hard to apply them in a sense of outrage about someone's crime, but it's fair. Which everybody wants when they're the accused on any offence, even a lousy traffic ticket.
 

Stratosfied

Ensign
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
915
Re: Moral delima

There is some reason that some family member finally turned him in, if he was going thru the 'family's plan', for his help. Now I'm not saying that there was some other things involved, but it sounds to me, looking form the outside, that the wife,(your friend), had tried to make the guy get help. ie, that was the 'plan', but evidently, he kept on, much in the behavior of a person addicted to drugs or alcohol, that is 'I'll quit." Some SIL or DIL finally had the gonads to stand up and take a stand. Or perhaps it was the wife and now she is feeling remorse. Whatever, the fact is that this is a preditor, not unlike the preditors in the wild. Now if 'Momma' was looking the other way, send her up the river too. If I were in your shoes, I could not write a letter which may or may not influence the punishment of this person. Should anything like this ever occur to my daughter, the POS hadn't need to worry about the judgement the courts will give him, I will take care of that myself. :mad:
 

Tinkerer

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
760
Re: Moral delima

Originally posted by efhenry:<br /> Lock him up, throw away the key and let him be someones cell boy. Let him be preyed upon like he did that child. Then and only then will he see and come to understand what he did.
Can't you see the inconsistency here?<br /><br />The bloke screwed kid, therefore he should be screwed?<br /><br />I've heard this a million times.<br /><br />It's total crap.<br /><br />Get into a gaol some time.<br /><br />It's hardly an act of moral courage and retribution for some sex-starved bank robber, who's ruined some people's working lives by shoving a gun in their face to frighten them into giving him money, to shove his organ up the arse of a child sex offender who's been sent to gaol for doing the same thing.<br /><br />If it's a proper penalty, let's have the government organ shoved into the prisoner with all the ceremony that attends a gassing or shooting or hanging in prison.
 

neumanns

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
1,926
Re: Moral delima

Edited because what I was trying to put forth did not come through.<br /><br />I request to have my rebutal scheduled for a latter time your honor, I 'll try again in a bit.
 

Barlow

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Messages
1,794
Re: Moral delima

his sentence is the result of the process which I uphold and am arguing for here: each side puts its material and the court decides. <br />
the way it should be
 
Top