Labor Unions

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

quote theriver:<br />"Someone making egg salad sandwiches in a hospital should not be making the same as somebody who had to get a post secondary school education) "<br /><br />why???....if fair market will pay for the product (labor) what basis do you use to determine wage scales. <br /><br />BTW, nobody "has to" get a secondary school education. That choice is an individual endeavor. Much like a person who chooses to gain employment at a union shop and possesses skills and abilities that are consistent for those job requirements. <br /><br />Many of those said skills and abilities are acquired via formal education and training, such as an indentured apprenticeship.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Labor Unions

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> Gentleman,<br />The only thing that unions do different from management is their effort to share the company profits.Management gives it to the CEO's as retirement packages and they shovel out tens of millions of dollars.

And therein, lies the rub. See, managers own outright,if not merely manage the company for the owners.<br /><br />Employees, be they management or otherwise, werk for the company. Unions take the powers descission-making away from these managers,and even the very owners. This is not good. Unions haven't allways been anti-profit,but had a history of helping the employees deal with the owners in a more human way. Unfortunately, those days are long-gone. Unions of today are out to extort any profit margin whatsoever. Some have even gone to the extreme of pricing the labor they claim to represent,right out of a job. I cite the auto unions and commercial transportation unions as prime examples of this wretched technique. Of every transportation company, not one union-infiltrated one is solvent. And yet, those with employee unions do not care. When it reaches that point, we all loose.<br />I'm sick of loosing to unions. I wonder how much my truck would've cost without them, as opposed to watching the company get gobbled-up by foriegn, non-union entities. I wonder if a trip up to see my brother in Nashville would finally be within reach, on a carier that was making profits, with a happy werk force..<br />Bttom line;-- Unions hurt the same people they claim to represent, by driving the cost of goods and services higher. These goods and services must also be purchased by union memebers. This makes no rational sense to me.<br />I don't mean any disrespect to any members of unions. But as for me, never again will I resort to werking under a union's control. And I will go to extremes to patronise non-union buisnesses.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Labor Unions

UAW......nuff said

 

[theriver]

Re: Labor Unions

pjc, fair market labor rates should apply, thats just it.<br /><br />My issue is, I have witnessed huge variances.<br />People doing the exact same job, with the same the same company one in a union shop, one in a non-union shop. Unskilled labor stocking shelves at grocery store. 1 worker making $12., the other making $24. What's right?<br /><br />A "sandwich artist" in the private sector might make $8 bucks or so. I have seen unionized hospital staff doing the same thing at more than double that amount, with benefits. Why? Fair is fair, but come on. That's my point.

 

[DJ]

Re: Labor Unions

I'm not a union lover. I don't belong to one and I never would. But, things said above make you think.<br /><br />If two similar products are built, one by a union company, the other by a non union company and are priced the same.<br /><br />Who's doing the gouging?<br /><br />I would say the non union company. They're not giving that extra profit to the employees or lowering prices..

 

[Bondo]

Re: Labor Unions

Let's just say that on my list of people and organizations that contribute the most to society, unions rate right up there with trial lawyers.

I'm 100% with KaGee.............<br /><br />And, I'll Include Bleeding Heart Liberal Politicians......... <br />And, the Rest of the People in this World that Always Blame, "Somebody Else" for their Own Problems.............<br /><br />It's the Unions,+ their "That's Not MY Job" mentality that's Caused all this "Out-Sourcing" that the Bleeding Heart Liberal Politicians are Always Complaining about............<br /><br />If I could have put to Good Use, All the Time I've spent Waiting for a Union Crew to Finish Their Job, So I could do Mine.........<br />I'd be a Millionaire...............<br /><br />If you couldn't Tell......<br /><br />I Hate Unions........... Their time has come,+ Gone ........

 

[NYMINUTE]

Re: Labor Unions

Can't imagine putting my job and it's benefits in someone elses hands to manage. It is my job to manage it, if I fail the consequences are known up front.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

quote Bondo:<br />"And, the Rest of the People in this World that Always Blame, "Somebody Else" for their Own Problems............."<br /><br />........and............<br /><br />"If I could have put to Good Use, All the Time I've spent Waiting for a Union Crew to Finish Their Job, So I could do Mine.........<br />I'd be a Millionaire..............."<br /><br />so there is not other productive work you could do while you are waiting? oh yea, thats right, it is their fault.

 

[Barlow]

Re: Labor Unions

mornin' pjc .. sorry for lettin' this one hang with the masses.. work first, play later u know.<br /><br />

by pjc: ... just that I do take exception when an obvious unenlightened opinion makes rash and irresponsible commentary. So kind of you by the way to contribute your vast expertise to those carpenters who may be working from engineering drawings you or those professionals like yourself may have created. <br />

I have no clue as to what you mean by this other than I've had no experiences or that the dealings I've had are made moot by such an opinion.<br /><br />As I stated before you'll get no rise out of me. With any of it.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Labor Unions

so there is not other productive work you could do while you are waiting? oh yea, thats right, it is their fault.

Ayuh...............Exactly..................<br /><br />Back when I was an Independent Trucker(aka. Non-Union independent contractor)......<br />I was Forced to Sit, 26 Working Hours(that's over 4 Days time), for a Union crew to unload My Truck, that took a Non-union crew a couple of hours to load.............<br />Instead of unloading(by crane of course) Units of steel, it was Single Pieces of steel......No Reason What So Ever, Except to Milk the Job.....<br />Ohhh, And the Best Part......<br />The Day started at 7am.... After they check-in,+ got they're work clothes on, they'd wander out to Think about getting started..... By 8:15, 8:30 the steel would start to come off..... But, Then it was Coffee Break..... Then Lunch..... Then Coffee Break...... Then 3pm they Go Home.......<br /><br />There's Only so much light maintenance that I Could do, setting in a job lot of a nuclear power plant...........<br />After the 1st Day, my paper work was caught up,+ my log book,+ the lights All working,+ the rig greased,+ the cab cleaned,+ the windows washed,+ the chrome polished,+,+,+,+,+..................<br /><br />So,<br />Ayuh........................<br />I was Forced to sit with my thumb up my butt for 3 Days, by some Scum Sucking Lazy Union Screw-Offs....... Who had No Fear of Punishment for they're Lack of Productivity............

 

[Barlow]

Re: Labor Unions

Bondo-- you're not the first I've heard this from.. plenty of it going around.<br /><br />how many years did you put up with it?

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Labor Unions

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> Unite workers of this world,you have nothing to loose but your bonds.<br />Religion is opium of the people.<br />I know a few more slogans written by my buddy Charlie Marx, but I suspect It would turn me into a suspect.

Fire away, rolmops---you're already a suspect! <br /><br /><br />-dd-

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Labor Unions

Seriously, though...I used to very, very anti-union, but the way I have been treated the last three years has made me reconsider.<br /><br />In a perfect world, I should be able to stand on my own two feet in the workplace. But what has happened lately is that the states (and specifically the state of Texas) have relaxed labor laws to attract employers---which sounds good in theory---but employers are getting away with murder, and it's not right.<br /><br />If I could join a union at my workplace, I would---provided they did not have a political agenda and use my money to support political causes and candidates that I would not support.<br /><br /><br />-dd-

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

Bondo, thanks for the detailed example. That behavior of the laborers burns my butt as well. Believe me that some unions, as well as management will tolerate what happened in your specific example. Mine will not. <br /><br />When I was a steward, the most frustrating and down right nauseating part of the job was dealing with those represented persons who just did not get it. A first step when an issue arose is to attempt to coach a person and achieve behavior change or issue resolution without further action by management. Some folks got it. Some did not.<br /><br />You see, the union relies on management to hold the "teeth", the ability to discipline, and use them when necessary. For example, the three conditions under which I work are the Labor Agreement (contract), shop rules, and time and attendance. The language in all three give management many options, up to and including termination, to correct problem employees. But management MUST use these tools for issue resolution. <br /><br />I have had conversations with Human Resources personal that are fairly senior in rank and expressed that PLEASE DO use your authority to discipline as the Union can not. Years ago some Unions could choose to suspend a members Union Card (rights) thus preventing them from work on a job. This action allowed Unions to discipline there members as the union saw fit. We can not do that today.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Labor Unions

Dogsdad, Buisnesses were abusing thier werkforces forever. The unions served thier purposes, and had it not been for unions, this country wouild be in a world of hurt.<br />But as someone in this thread so aptly put it, the pendulum has swung to the extreme other side.<br />When an auto werker installs door handles on cars overseas in a non-union shop, how much cheaper is this task being done, when compared to a U.A.W. guy doing the same thing?<br />Now, let's multuply this by the same amount(percentage-wise) accross the manufacturing process in each shop.<br />Which car will roll-out cheaper??<br />Math makes my head hurt, but this is a no-brainer.<br /><br />Still, this is not the major issue with unions. It's the tactics they now use in leu of "negotiations" of yesterday's unions. This is what turns my stomach with them. Example one;<br />The buisiest day of the holiday travel season, union baggage handlers in the travel industry called-in sick (called a "sick-out"). The resulting chaos cost the industry millions in lost revenue, and trapped passengers at airports accross the country, when they only wanted to spend time with thier family on Christmas.<br />This organized attack was disgusting IMHO! It showed in one "strike", how much more these people care for the buck, than they do anyone else, not to mention the short-sighted gains' effects on any future carreer, (due to the companies they werk for tanking beyond the point of recovery).<br />I predict most major air carriers to file chapter#11 before Summer. This is sad, and was totally unnessecary. Again, JMHO looking at this from a non-union American eyeball.<br />Example two;<br /> Taking a page from the travel gang, the union of hotel waitewrs and hostesses (I do not recall the actual name of the union), have threatned to "sick-out" or strike durring the Innaugueration cerimonies.<br />If they do, I'll rent an RV for every trip I ever take in the future, or pre-register with a non-union hotel chain if can find one.<br /><br />Yeah, I'll "look for the union label"....and go the opposite direction!

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: Labor Unions

i worked at trucking company for 3yrs, as a dock loader, and saw the type of thing bondo mentioned. and then found out about the union fees to join if i went from 'casual' to 'regular', and decided no way. i don't need someone to represent me at some possible point in time, for a monthly pymt like insurance, i'd rather prove my worth by the work i did, or find a job with better conditions, if it came down to it.<br /><br />the only time i had ever worked for a union was back in high school, just like was stated on here before - i quit one grocery chain and went to another, doing the same thing but for alot more money due to the union. later when i met my wife-to-be, and she had worked at the other chain for yrs, i found out how much the non-union store gave to the community(free groceries/handouts), and how tight the union store was. <br /><br />now i understand alittle better why.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

12, example #2. that is your right, and please do exercise it if appropriate. If enough people do the same, and communicate to a business where you intended to do business why you are not giving them your business, change will occur.<br /><br />A post mentioned Reagan and the ATC labor action. And the results of Reagan's actions. Same could...shoild occur with the bag handlers...<br /><br />..and my point again..MANAGEMENT must perform in the role that they are obligated to. <br /><br />Weak management allows such behavior to occur without penalties.<br /><br />Strong and just management is recognized by their partner union and generally perform together for business success. Mine does, though there are bumps in the road as expected. Definitely NOT and adversarial relationship.<br /><br />BTW, foreign wages are scaled to what a regions cost of living is. Thats why a guy (or woman) can assemble a door handle in Mexico (or China)for a few pesos (rice) and still feed the kids.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Labor Unions

Originally posted by pjc:<br /> <br />BTW, foreign wages are scaled to what a regions cost of living is. Thats why a guy (or woman) can assemble a door handle in Mexico (or China)for a few pesos (rice) and still feed the kids.

It may be more correct to say that foreign wages are scaled to the local standard of living. This has put me in indirect competition with Chinese peasant/slave labor! Your industry may be NEXT.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

Very true DD. And it does affect my employer. But we, labor and management provide co-leadership that address those issues.<br /><br />BTW, why all the hostility aimed at Labor Unions that provide good wages and benefits to families like mine. In particular, say, were those here opposed to unions offered wages and bennies similar to mine, but must choose to be represented. Would you choose to, out of principle or opinion, refuse a potential better living standard for your family? <br /><br />Am curious what you would decide. Please, no additional scenarios, just consider the content of what I posted above.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

Good News:<br /><br />Steelworkers, PACE Vote to Merge:<br />Pittsburgh/Nashville, January 11, 2005 – The International Executive Boards of the United Steelworkers of America (USWA) and the Paper, Allied Industrial, Chemical and Energy Workers International Union (PACE) have voted unanimously to merge. Merger of the two unions will create the largest and most powerful industrial union in North America, with over 850,000 active members in over 8,000 bargaining units in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean.<br /><br />The combined union will have over 1.25 million active and retired members to advocate for worker-friendly legislation and candidates. Together, PACE and the USWA will be a major political force in key battleground states and provinces in the U.S. and Canada.<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />“By joining forces with the USWA,” said PACE President Boyd Young, “PACE members will have greater bargaining power, because this merger creates a larger union presence in our core industries and gives us more leverage at the bargaining table. Once merged, our union will immediately be a major presence in North America’s core industrial sectors and that strength of diversity will both protect and promote our bargaining agendas.”<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />“PACE members will have access to a $150 million defense fund so that we can take on employers who make unreasonable demands at the bargaining table,” said Young. “Furthermore, with an organizing budget of over $30 million per year, we will have the ability to strategically organize workers in our core industries.”<br /><br />“Our unions share a commitment to innovative bargaining strategies that protect our members in many ways, while maintaining and building the productive capacity of the companies they work in,” said USWA International President Leo W. Gerard. <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />“We’re also pledged to using our successes with our joint Rapid Response and political programs to challenge anti-worker forces bent on undermining the futures of our active and retired members,” said Gerard. <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />The new union will be called the United Steel, Paper and Forestry, Rubber, Manufacturing, Energy, Allied-Industrial and Service Workers International Union. PACE and USWA members will vote on the proposed merger at concurrent conventions to be held in April.