Labor Unions

[fixin]

Re: Labor Unions

<br />AND PROUD OF IT.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

bigfun, if MI is a Right To Work State......opt out of paying your dues, etc. and work as a non-represented employee. Thus, you will not be supportive via your $$$ of morons. Very simple option for folks who do not care to be represented employees!

 

[one more cast]

Re: Labor Unions

I worked in two mills. One union and one non union. They both shut down just a few years apart. When working for the non union mill I made crap wages,poor pension plan,poor insurance plan. I quit after getting hired at the union mill and made a decent living with good insurance and a great retirement plan. The union did protect some people that should have been fired but also made the place safer to work in.

 

[radar750]

Re: Labor Unions

The controllers that belonged to PATCO,(Prof Air Traffic Controllers Assoc.)thought they had a good union when they went on strike until Regan fired over 10,000 of them with the stroke of a pen. To this day,some are still trying to get there jobs back but are all but locked out. Regan banned them for life. Bill Clinton lifted the ban in 1993 and with over 5,000 PATCO controllers trying to be rehired only around 800 were taken back.There was mass testing at my college in 82 for controllers and for me the rest is history. There is a new union NATCA afl-cio for about 10 yrs now. We still have inadequite staffing levels and some smaller low traffic facilities are contracting to private NFCT which is a Non Federal Control Tower<br />where controllers make lower wages and have less benefits.So am I better off? I really dont know.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

Thank You radar750! that points to management, in that particular scenario, Reagan as the big boss, has the ability to influence Labor Union relations as well as behavior. My position exactly. Those who position their opinions of organized labor as having dominant control over business concerns may look to your post as an example of reality.

 

[radar750]

Re: Labor Unions

PJC, I am sure there are labor unions that have dominant control over business work place concerns but that is not the case with us. We do not have to be in the union but most are. There is still a big us vs them relationship with management.The FAA has a monolopy on ATC hiring and training. The average person now does not have a chance to become a controller. Unles you are a rehire, from the military,dod or go through an FAA approved college your chances are 0. They have not offered the Govt test for 5-6 yrs now.Controllers dont have anywhere else to go.PATCO did get a excellent retirement package for its members but most never made it to the end.Most of the PATCO controllers really wanted better hours and more time off.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

I am in sympathy to hear of your concerns of the job situation you describe. In my opinion that is a logical reason to have collective bargaining representation. Those who find that position unacceptable, more power to you and yours. Deal away.<br /><br />The predisposed adversarial climate that is assumed by management and labor is in my mind a huge barrier that needs to be discussed as well as defeated. IMO that is a prejudice that is stuck in peoples heads and will be very difficult to change. My father for example had negative views of organized labor. The Union mindset was and can still be that management will use common employees for whatever purpose that suits them to achieve a result.<br /><br />I will not post verbal vomit regarding how all parties need to learn to negotiate and understand and respect each others wants and needs to achieve a true professional as well as productive business climate therefore providing the success that will benefit all members of a company.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

And furthermore upon additional reflection........just who is indeed responsible for initiating as well as culturing the "us-vs-them" climate? A portion on this board or otherwise will beat up on and focus responsibility on organized labor.........BUT....from my experience, as localized as it may be,......in real life salaried employees as well as management tend to use a represented person as a scape goat, knowing fully that when that use as an "excuse" to their supervisor will be an acceptable rationalization for that particular salaried persons lack of performance. Heard that and been there as a Union Steward representing a person who such a claim was brought forth. Imagine if that said person had no advocates to represent then during such an Inquisition?

 

[Stratosfied]

Re: Labor Unions

I was always under the impression that as Federal Employees, The ATC's were not covered by an AFL-CIO sanctioned union. Therefore, when they participated in an unlawful strike, they were fired. Now I may be wrong on this and do not want to raise a rukus. <br />I work in the PowerHouse of a PaperMill, I am also a proud member of the IBEW Local 2040.<br />I know this for a fact, that without the seniority and job progressions, some of the world champions suck ups would have all the senior jobs and the most money. This is my thoughts on this.

 

[Twidget]

Re: Labor Unions

when they participated in an unlawful strike, they were fired.

This was always my understanding of the situation also.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Labor Unions

Originally posted by pjc:<br /> To KaGee...please contribute and enlighten myself and others regarding the factual and logical data you used to form the basis upon which your post above is premised.<br /><br />"Let's just say that on my list of people and organizations that contribute the most to society, unions rate right up there with trial lawyers."

Sorry PJC, this is as far as it gets. There's no debating this issue in a "factual and logical" manner with anyone who has taken a hardened stance "pro" union.

 

[radar750]

Re: Labor Unions

Strato, NATCA is afl-cio but it is my understanding that PATCO was not.I was not in PATCO so I am not 100% sure.Unlawful, you bet, Reagan gave them 48hrs to return to work and then the ax fell. I think they never thought he would go through. They were shocked.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

ok KaGee...fair 'nuf....as well as the likelihood of continuing an intellectual dialog with a person who has an "anti Organized Labor" stance.

 

[pjc]

Re: Labor Unions

BTW, Barlow, you around???????

 

[Stratosfied]

Re: Labor Unions

Radar, that is probally right. I am impressed with how that management since then has held this over the heads of unions during the negociations(sp). I am for all free enterprise and Capitalism. It seems that the Locals are loosing their collective 'power', and that the International Reps are sometimes not as in tune with the locals as they should be. This is my take, for what it's worth.

 

[JasonB]

Re: Labor Unions

I lost a job once while in College partly because some Union members were not happy that I was not union although I wasn't doing what they did. I was sweeping the floors.... I could have possibly kept my job had I joined the Union, but my chosen vocation wasn't theirs, I was just a college kid working my way through school. <br /><br />I also live near two large manufaturing firms in the same industry. One Union one not. As I understand it, at the non-union shop, the employees continue to vote down bringing a union in.<br /><br />I believe Unions are like Lawyers in that some give many a bad rep. Many do good protecting their members from unreasonable employers, but some get taged as making unreasonable demands or protecting underperforming members. <br /><br />

in real life salaried employees as well as management tend to use a represented person as a scape goat, knowing fully that when that use as an "excuse" to their supervisor will be an acceptable rationalization for that particular salaried persons lack of performance

While I do not work in a Union industry and am technically a white coller worker who could be considered management, and I hold a degree in Bus. Mgmt, please don't paint all management as evil and out to step on everyone below. My experience over the years in different industries says it depends on who you ar edealing with. It depends on the company and the managemnt philosophy. As management, part of my job is to take heat when mistakes are made and try to prevent them from happening again, not to pin blame on someone.<br /><br />There must be a balance. management serves a vital role just as hourly workers do. There can be good/bad managers just as there can be good/bad workers at any level or area.<br /><br />It shouldn't be an Us Vs. Them between Management and Unions. It should be more Us with Them on both sides so we can stem the flow of jobs outside our country. My profession is one that is being heavily "outsourced" overseas.

 

[crab bait]

Re: Labor Unions

NOT ALL UNIONS ARE THE SAME..<br /><br />i'm in a building trades union IBEW.. i was organized 20 years ago.. my ticket's in local 617 san mateo,ca .. which i haven't worked out of in along time..<br /><br />i'm originally from delaware an mostly work outta local 313 an the surronding locals as a 'traveler' .. it's been tough,, traveler's are the first to get bumped an get the shidirty work.. <br /><br />all i have to say is the union has always did me well.. <br /><br />when i worked non-union .. the wage was dismal an if'n you begged for a yearly raise,, ya had to listen to the bosses 'song & dance' of how he's broke an can't do it this year.. or if'n he can 'throw ya a bone',, keep it a secret.. don't tell the other employee's..<br /><br />an about 'lazy worker protection'.. look fellas',, we all make the exact same on the job in that/whatever piticular local's juriousdiction..<br /><br />the contractor loves an will an can 'lay-off' any 'slugs' & deadweights.. an get another replacement tomorrow for the exact same money..believe me ,,they love to cut deadweight..!! <br /><br />so yes,, there is alotta hard work to keep on the pay roll..<br /><br />the wage in 313 is lower then the sister locals an is where i'm workin' outta right now.. <br /><br />the wage is still great.. an i could say how much but i wont.. but it is commom knowledge for it's on there website.. <br />( just had a raise there an mite not be updated )<br /><br />but i will say this about retirement.. for every hour worked like $3.60 goes into a pension plan an $3.8sumodd goes into a vanguard annuity .. that's money on top of my wage an that money is a percentage based on a normal 40 hour base.. an becomes time-in-a-1/2 on overtime an double on double time just like wages.. <br /><br />also the best health & dental in the country.. <br /><br />none of which is offered in the non-union sector.. well maybe a little BS 401k an high outta pocket medical.. <br /><br />for me.. it's a no brainer.. if'n i'm gonna be an electrial work for life,, i'm gonna be a union electrical worker for life..

 

[Bigfun]

Re: Labor Unions

pjc, it's not possible to opt-out of union dues in mi. You can only opt-out of a certain %. In my wifes case, 582.70$ is the mea dues, 456.30$ is the amount we have to pay after the opt-out. Her nea dues are 134.00$, 75.40$ is the amount we have to pay after the opt-out. <br /> We are still represented and resented by morons with a political agenda. But thats our choice.

 

[theriver]

Re: Labor Unions

I think unions have a fit to assist employees when it comes to areas such as those brought up by "One More Cast", except for protecting certain people who should be fired.<br /><br />I have a problem with unions that over compensate compared to market conditions. I have a boating friend whose son stocks shelves at a grocery chain and makes $24./hour (regular rates). I support (safe workplace, fair treatment, and retirement income) protection of the workers, but when you hear of abuses like this that obviously affect the ability of the company to operate, obviously consumers pay.<br /><br />I've witnessed similar incidents within government ie: food service workers making as much as pharmacy technicians*, and ferry worker parking attendants making ridiculous salaries. *(Someone making egg salad sandwiches in a hospital should not be making the same as somebody who had to get a post secondary school education) <br /><br />Note: In the grocery store example above, the non unionized stores, the same position pays $12. at the same store.

 

[rolmops]

Re: Labor Unions

Gentlemen,<br />The only thing that unions do different from management is their effort to share the company profits.Management gives it to the CEO's as retirement packages and they shovel out tens of millions of dollars.