Is security worth giving up some freedom?

JB

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I hope we can compare our ideas on this without starting a war.<br /><br />I saw a "report" on th NOW show the other night that had me foaming at the mouth. I will try to avoid name calling.<br /><br />This report attacked our Attorney General because he refused to allow gun purchase records to be used in identifying potential threats to our security. He claimed that the law forbade such use and he wasn't going to violate the law.<br /><br />The report said that it was his "alliance with the NRA" that was allowing terrorists to buy assault weapons in the USA.<br /><br />My understanding of all this was that they wanted: 1. Tougher enforcement of gun control laws to prevent bad guys from getting guns. 2. Use of gun purchase records to track and identify people who have guns.<br /><br />My attitude is that anyone who would surrender any of our liberty to get some tiny amount of added security deserves neither liberty nor security.<br /><br />I know of no example in our history in which a liberty, once curtailed, was reinstated.<br /><br />What do you guys think?
 

ob

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

I think they're reaching for stars.I'm surprised they didn't mention requiring I.D. and background check to purchase a box cutter,or butter knife for that matter.We're not overseas to disarm Iraq from using handguns are we?<br />My wife flew to Houston on bussiness last week via Delta Airlines.Halfway in flight two gentlemen sitting across the aisle complained of some fluid dripping on them from the overhead compartment.Following a stewardess inspection,seems that some guy that went hunting that week was transporting a tote bag full off thawing duck carcasses in apparently a non sealed bag.The stewardess was quite perturbed and relocated container to planes galley I suppose.You know,the same one where they keep your on flight meals.Who's checking what at this heightened security check point at the airport.Might just as well been sulfuric acid,human fecese,bio terror fluid,or how about bloody duck carcasses. :confused: :confused: :mad: :mad:
 

jee70611

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

JB,<br /><br />I firmly agree with you. I will NEVER willingly give up ANY of my FREEDOMS. For one, none of the September 11th terrorists used a gun. Also, there are so many guns on the "black market" that any gun control laws would be useless. Besides, the only people who would even abide by a gun control law would be the law abiding citizens. A person who is planning on killing someone would not care about a gun control violation. For that matter, guns are old technology. Anyone with a little ambition can put one together in their garage. Also, some say that guns are killing kids. Well, look at how many kids are killed each year in car accidents. Are we going to start outlawing cars now? I don't think so. Do a search on Kennesaw, Georgia and their gun laws. It is required that all home owners have a gun for defense purposes. People thought that the mayor was nuts at first, until their crime rate went through the floor. I think that speaks for itself. <br /><br />Consider this: You are a criminal wanting to rob a house. You have two houses you want to choose from. You know House A doesn't have a gun in it while House B may. Which house are you gonna rob? Naturally, House A. Criminals usually don't plan on getting hurt. Now most gun control advocates say they only want to get rid of handguns. Well, If I wanted a pistol, what would I do? Saw the stock and barrel off of a high powered rifle. Guess what I got now, a pistol. Once there is a precedent, they will then be after our rifles. Guns are not the problem. It is the fact that we don't enforce the laws we have. I'm sick of hearing that it costs over $60,000 a year to house a single prisoner. That's outrageous. I know of FAMILIES that live on less than $30,000 a year. Prisons shouldn't be soft. They are for PUNISHMENT! Until we get harder on criminals, they will continue to perpetuate in society. Besides, the crime RATE per CAPITA has decreased. We have more crime because we have a GREATER POPULATION. Now, I do not think we should go handing out weapons to seasoned criminals. However, keeping any weapon out of any determined criminals hands is impossible as long as they are out in public. Shoot, (no pun intended :D ) I could go down to Home Depot, buy a 16 penny nail gun and an air compressor. Pull the safety back on that baby with a claw hammer, and keep you out of my yard for two and half hours. Next thing, they'll be after nail guns. Gun control laws are one of those things that only look good on paper, not reality. Anyone else wanna add to this issue. <br /><br />James<br /><br />PS: I'm not trying to start a war, just enlighten a few with my views. They will get my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands. :mad: :mad: :D :D :D
 

SCO

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

I think you have reopened the can of worms heh heh. I have to question the logic of not checking the gun registrations in view of the plans for a massive government database in the Homeland Security bill(if what I've heard is correct). I would go for all these things, but can't because you're right JB, the information will be misused for other purposes and we can't and don't trust those in power to restore our freedoms. Look at the toll paid in the Civil war. Reread the Gettysberg Address. Not exactly a freedom issue but a preservation of the idea of our United States. A lot of people have died for what we have today, and a lot will chunk it when it gets a little hairy. Are we to the point where we can no longer afford freedom? "anything for a glass of water"...that will be us some day thirsting for freedom. We don't value it now because we take it for granted but we know that people who have thirsted for it were willing to die for it. Recommended vacation spots: Boston,Lexington, Concord, Normandy. A must see: the WWII museum in New Orleans.
 

jee70611

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

SCO, <br /><br />Heh heh on the can of worms :) . I agree that we take our freedom for granted. We take a lot of things in our daily lives for granted. Things like eyesight, touch, hearing, smell, food, shelter, clothes, health, etc. We should try to be aware and thankful of all these things more often. <br /><br />James
 

Fishbusters

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

You know it occurs to me Washington tried this one time before . You know telling folks how to live and what they can and can not do. Heck they done it several times. it seems it ended up in one form of uprising or another. Civil war (it was not just Slavery), Gangland crime (prohibition for those uninformed) just to name a couple.
 

ebbtide176

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

i've always felt as those so far posted. i haven't done alot of research on it though. how does the majority in law enforcement feel about it?<br /><br />i see good points from both sides now. i don't think we should give up guns. but i don't know about the harm in identifying owners, just as we're on record already for SSN, drivers license, DOB, irs records, etc. i believe you when you mention not getting back freedoms once taken away. but i believe if we did allow more records on guns to get legislated, we certainly could & would stop the gov from taking them from us altogether. <br /><br />but i wholeheartedly agree that the best solution is to simply do better at enforcing the laws we already have, and provide stronger deterrents (read punishment) to crime.<br />(amended)<br />i was trying to understand why the link "more records=guns taken from us" is so often brought up... and all i can think of is that<br />*it would be very bad if once all this info is public, it got into the hands of special-interest groups like PETA, etc, and they started targeting every local gunowner like they do others on their 'hit lists'! *<br /><br />that would make me serious about keeping things just as they are now, and not wanting any further gun info collected! :eek: <br /><br />-sorry to ramble
 

sony2001

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Sorry guys I just don't get it. If everyone should be armed to defend the homeland that idea my have been good in the 18th century but not since Pearl Harbour and Sept 11. If the hand guns are to defend your selves in your own homes it doesn't say much for the society you have created or are living in. If you say its a basic freedom. Not in a republic. And you are a republic. :cool:
 

Bob_VT

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

History tends to repeat itself.<br /><br />I will not surrender my freedoms for security or place my security in someone's hands whom I do not have 100% trust.<br /><br />Rarely do legal weapons get used in illegal terrorist activities.<br /><br />What has been the terrorist weapon of choice aside from instilling fear? FIRE, yes fire. Fires set by terrorists have claimed more lives than guns. Nightclub fires, fire bombs....look at the destructive force exhibited by a jet aircraft loaded with fuel on a building.<br /><br />Sadly, whatever law is passed, whatever records are released, some insignificant group will claim a victory.<br /><br />If the USA ever really wanted to establish a good rule of thumb to keep our nation safer they would curtail the media speculation and hype whenever anything happens. So called former experts are as effective as arm chair quartebacks. We can not afford to give in to the media hype.<br /><br />Look at what happened to Richard Jewel ...remember the guy originally thought to be the bomber at the olympics.....huh the media and the FBI were wrong. Sorry but he was convicted by the media. The same thing with all the recent sniper speculation....those poor visiting illegal hispanics driving the wrong vehicle!<br /><br />If one law is to be passed it should be that NO NEW LAWS be the one.<br /><br />Bob
 

Moose_Miller

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

You Canadians have the same views on guns, I'll give you that. I've never HAD to use a gun for home protection, but I have peace of mind in knowing that I can. I don't even keep my ammo near my weapons (2 young kids in the house). I don't know what the crime stats are between the US and Canada, and furthermore, I don't care. I'm sure it depends on the region. The more population there is concentrated in a certain area, the higher the crime rate. I don't have much cause here in Nebraska to tote any weapons (unless Silverking is still looking for me :) ). <br /><br />Canada is alot like a great big Nebraska... a few cities, and a whole lot of nothing else. More deer than people here, too. I don't own any assault weapons, or any handguns. I'll go out on a limb and say my Browning Auto-5 gives me all the security I'll probably never need. I also have a 30-06 for those previously mentioned deer, and a .22 rifle for miscellaneous varmit.<br /><br />As for revealing all the gun registration info, I think that it should remain confidential. Just a month and a half ago, a small town here in Nebraska about 70 miles from here made national news: 4 Mexican-born immigrants walked into a U.S. Bank and shot and killed all 4 bank workers and one customer. They then stole a car and fled. They were caught later the same day after ditching their guns along they way. All 4 guns were recovered and NONE of the guns were registered to the assailants. Two were stolen and 2 were registered to someone in Texas (not you, JB); so I ask you, what good would it do to reveal LAW-ABIDING people who register their guns, when they're not the ones committing the crimes, as a rule. I could buy guns all day long from private individuals and never have one registered to me.
 

Jack Shellac

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

If our goverment had demonstrated that they could be be trusted in all matters, it would be a different story. You never know who's going to be in office at any given time and what they will bring to the mix. A local man shot a burglar last week who was leaving with his stolen goods and now HE is in jail for shooting the burglar. We all hope that the Grand Jury will refuse to indict or that a jury will refuse to enforce the law. This man's neighborhood had been plagued with burglaries for years with no arrests.
 

bobber head

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

What's allowing Terrorists (or anyone else for that matter) to buy hand guns, rifles, shotguns, scopes, and gobs of ammunition here in the U.S. is the simple fact that we have this stuff for sale everywhere. Out of the trunks of cars, on street corners, in retail dept. stores. Heck, we got guns falling out of our ears. Good selection, too.<br /><br />Don't want something used? Have a black mark next to your name in the Big Brother file? Maybe your not yet an official citizen? No problem, get your buddy to buy the gun for you. Piece of cake. Our gun laws are beyond me. How about we forget about regist. guns and instead make a list of people buying ammunition? (I think that was suppose to be a joke)<br /><br />For some yet unknown reason, I do not trust our Att. General. Can't put a finger on it: but I feel I am being sold a bill of goods when he opens his mouth. I don't like this feeling and hope I am wrong in my suspicion but I fear it's much more serious then an "alliance with the NRA".<br /><br />What about prohibiton? (something I know nothing about but it pops to mind)<br /><br />"Guns don't kill things: bullets do." - BH
 

NOSLEEP

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

WE UP HERE IN CANADA HAVE UNTIL JAN 1/O3 TO REGISTER OUR GUNS , OR WE WILL BECOME CRIMINALS. I HAVE TO SAY THAT MOST OF MY FREINDS HERE ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT OUR RIGHTS. WE DONT THINK THAT THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT WILL BE LINING UP TO REGISTER THEIR GUNS. YOU HAVE A GREAT MANY THINGS TO BE PROUD OF IN THE U.S.A ONE OF WICH IS A GOVERNMENT THAT RECOGNIZES YOUR RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. IF THAT RIGHT WHERE TO BE TAKEN AWAY AND YOU BECAME A CRIMINAL HOW WOULD YOU REACT. YOU ONLY NEED TO IMAGINE WHAT WOULD COME DOWN THE PIPE AFTER YOU WHERE FORCED TO REGISTER.
 

jee70611

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Actually, BH, Bullets don't kill anything either. People kill things. The lawmakers can legislate their way to kingdom come, but if people aren't willing to accept it then they are useless. A government can only exist with the consent of the governed. Moreover, it is human nature to want to throw all our problems into someone else's hands and ask them to deal with them. People, as a whole, expect the government to just jump in and fix everything. This is when people become willing to give up their rights so they don't have to deal with the problems they have created for themselves. Those who would sacrifice freedom for security will have neither, nor deserve neither. I have noticed, that many people think that whatever the government says must always go. That is not so. One thing that annoys me is that the IRS seems to think they are above the law. What ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty" with them. They audit you and make you prove your innocence. I say screw that. They should have to prove my guilt. Another little pet peve of mine is that people seem to think that music is causing our kids to become "corrupted." This is a crock of crap. Listen to some Marvin Gaye, David Alan Coe, or Clarence Carter and tell me that music is corrupting kids. If that was so, then the people making these allegations are "corrupted" themselves. It is the failure of parents to properly discipline their children that makes them corruptable by such nonsense. I am nineteen years old and have not been influenced by anything that I have heard on the radio or seen on television. Also, something that scares the hell out of me is people voting who are uninformed about the issues. I have seen people that I go to school with say, "Cool, I can vote now. I'll just go vote for anyone." <br /><br />Consider this:<br /><br />The people who run the government are continually wanting more power over the public. As more freedoms are reliquished, the governments power strengthens. Eventually, the government would get too powerful and want to constantly impose demands on its people. This would eventually end up in a civil war. Then the cycle would repeat itself. For those who cannot remember their past are condemned to repeat it. People will continue to be the way they are and have been as long as they fail to realise how small they are in this universe. Greed, politics, and intolerance of others are the major evils of this world. Until we stop playing this stupid game for power, glamour, and money, we will continue to fight wars, kill each other, and hate each other. :( :( Nosleep, I am glad to see that not all Canadians are anti-gun. I hope that it all works out for those of you in Canada. I don't see how, but hope for the best. It may come a time in the future where you and your fellow citizens of Canada will have to rise up and protect yourselves against the government. I hope this doesn't come to pass, but it may some day. If it were me, I would not feel safe being at the mercy of the government. That is why I will NEVER give up any of my freedoms. Just remember that a government CAN NOT exist without the consent of the governed. ;) <br /><br />James
 

John Carpenter

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

The people who wrote the Bill of Rights and Constitution had a healthy mistrust of government. That's why they read the way they do. The Bill of Rights is there to protect you, the citizen from your own governments abuse of power. All of your rights are ultimately guaranteed by the Second Amendment..lose it and the rest will soon follow. Never trust anyone who wants you to give up your guns...it's not about crime. Massachusetts and N.Y. have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation...and some of the highest rates of violent crime. If the average citizen can't obtain a weapon for self-protection, how do they defend theirselves from predators who ignore the law? Do you think the police will be there for you?? They will...after the fact. You won't have time to call them while it's happening.<br /> <br />For what it's worth, I am an NRA certified instructor in 5 areas, Home Self Defense being one of them. If you are not familiar with weapons and choose to obtain one for self defense...get some training and know in your heart that you WILL use it if you have to...or don't get it. Just don't ask me to give mine up.<br /><br />Nothing quite like the sound of a 12 ga. pump schucking a round in the chamber to make an intruder think twice.
 

jee70611

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Relentless, I fully agree with what you have said. Also, their mistrust is why the second amendment is the second amendment and not the fifth, nineth, or tenth. It was VERY important to them.<br /><br />James
 

sony2001

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

CRIME RATES: The highest crime rates are NOT in the cities. They are in the rural areas. CRIME RATES are measured on a per person basis. not as a total number. Manhatten is safer than Cheyene. The murder rate is less, per person living there. :cool:
 

JB

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Interesting comment, Sony.<br /><br />What information do you base that on?
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

you make a very good point JB. liberty is a right<br />and not a privilige. <br />some other points to ponder:<br />almost anyone can become a gun dealer and sell<br />out of their trunk or basement... that doesn't<br />seem right to me. try getting a wholesale liquor<br />license. you think some guy selling an attack<br />rifle out of his trunk is really gonna care about<br />ID if he can make a couple hundered quick cash?<br />what, a slap on the wrist for not filling out the<br />propper paperwork...he's really worried.<br />if you were a criminal, where would you buy a gun?<br />try the classifieds in your local paper.<br />the only people who will be on the "registered" <br />gun owners list will be law abiding citizens...<br />that will really help a lot eh?<br />just like registering a car will prevent drunk <br />driving and vehicular manslaughter.<br /><br />on another note, there are hundreds of kids killed<br />every year accidently with the family handgun.<br />PLEASE be very careful with your guns. don't take<br />chances, don't leave a loaded gun ANYWHERE!!!!<br />my kids might be playing at your house someday.
 

John Carpenter

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Re: Is security worth giving up some freedom?

Sony...no offense but I don't believe you can back that one up...although statistics can be manipulated to support almost any point of view. I will tell you this...I have lived in Boston and Manhattan & both are great cities. Both also have any number of places where it is simply not safe to live, never mind take your wife out for an evening stroll. I have seen many apartments in Manhattan that had five or six deadbolts, bars, chains, etc. on the door. If you park your vehicle with anything of value in view...a window will be smashed and it will be gone when you get back. I lived in Boston 6 years and had 4 cars stolen. Screw that. While in Boston I applied for a gun permit...was told up front by the Sgt. "helping" me fill out the form that it would not be granted. He was right. This was not a carry permit, just sport and target. I had no criminal record of any kind. In fairness to the great state of Massachusetts, I later moved to Harvard Ma., out in the country...went to the local police station & applied, they were very cordial & the permit was quickly granted. The officer there invited me to a local turkey shoot (which I attended...skinned 'em for 6 hams :D ) As far as NYC is concerned...fugetaboutit. If you get a permit there it is because you hired a lawyer to force them to give it to you.<br /><br />Sorry for my off-topic rambling but I have been there & done that in this instance. I can guarantee you that you are more likely to be a crime victim in most any large city than you are most anywhere in Wyoming...or here in Kentucky. People here leave their house unlocked when out of town...cars unlocked and running when in the store...boats in the slip with keys in the ignition & fishing gear in full view etc. Try that in Manhattan.
 
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