I'm not a religious man, but......

spratt

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

I feel that there is animosity between some mainstream denominations that shouldn't be there.
<br /><br />Jason, I think that there are a lot of similarities in most churches that call themselves Chrisitian, and there are some PERCIEVED differences that cause squabbles simply because members don't really understand their differences. HOWEVER, there are some differences between religions that definitely seperate them from others. <br /><br />What each church believes, I think they each believe they are right about. When I was first converted, and the more I studied God's Word, the more amazed I was that some people actually could believe the things their religion was teaching!!!<br /><br />From reading this thread through a couple times, I believe that this is an extremely good sampling of the belief system that is held throughout the United States of America. I cannot qualify that, because I haven't lived all over the States. However, there is a pretty good mix of folks here from most states.<br /><br />The thing that binds most all denominations, that I am familiar with, is the teaching of the Trinity. I won't go in-depth at all, except to say that I personally, do not believe in it. <br /><br />Another thing that binds almost all those churches / faiths, is baptism utilizing the Trinity titles. Some feel baptism is critical to salvation and some do not. Some require baptism to be a member of their church, but do not believe it is required to go to heaven. Personally, I believe baptism is absolutely essential, and that one will not make it to heaven without it.<br /><br />Being raised UMC, I was taught that salvation was pretty much the same as the Baptists (I had three uncles whom were Southern Baptists, so I know some about them) and Catholics ( I have attended Catholic services, and my wife was a Catholic for many years before she converted), same as the Episcopalians and Lutherans, and a long list of others. Please...don't try to put words in my mouth as if I am running down those folks, That is my understanding, and I COULD be wrong...most of these teach that a person receives the Holy Spirit, but maybe in different ways, and some teach it is imperative, maybe even required, to be saved, and some teach it is just a gift, and one does not need to be filled with His Spirit to be saved. Some utilize statues and other things in their worship, while some do not allow music instruments in the church. All that being said, I applaud every one who practices their faith, and I hope and pray that every one who believes they are right, truly ARE right when they stand before God and are judged, according to Revelations...but, if people don't believe that those things are even important, as some have posted here, and they are free to worship whatever they please, then I can only hope they are right also...there is one thing that is certain about this life...it will end for us all, in some way! After that, no one of us can tell about.<br /><br />Thanks, Admins, for giving us the ability to post our heartfelt words here, and I want to say that if I have been an offense to anyone, I truly do apologize! Noone has offended me, incidentally, if anyone were wondering.<br /><br />Admin5 I read the scriptures you posted about, and if we were in a situation to discuss them, I would be happy to talk about what I believe they mean. <br /><br />JB, I am of strong Indian background, but I do not feel nor believe that the way the Indians worship is right, for me, and I believe that God will judge in His mercy, and whom He will save, He will save.<br /><br />I just pray I am right with God when all is sadi and done in this life!!! The only thing I am afraid of is that I would fall into willful sin, and not make it in the end. To that end, I guard my soul with all the fight I have in me, so not to, as Paul put it, become a castaway.<br /><br />Have a blessed day, all!!
 

spratt

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Originally posted by Elmer Fudge:<br /> Thanks to all those who answered my questions,and also for the vast amount of info which was posted.<br />I picked up a number of books on a few of the major religions from the library in my neighbourhood,so i'll be busy for a while,once again thanks ya'll.
Elmer, if you are truly, honestly, looking for an experience with God, you will find Him. The Bible says (if you believe the Bible, maybe not, I do not know) those who seek shall find Him. The only advice I would give, is to test the Spirits...or, check out what the church of your choice teaches, whether it coincides exactly with what the Bible says. <br /><br />God bless you, Elmer, in your search...we all have choices to make, and we all hope we make the right ones.
 

bayman

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

I applaud everyone for their great efforts in making this a good forum topic. I have really enjoyed reading your posts and learning from what all of you have to say.<br /><br />I agree with Spratt on this - let me quote him:<br />"Personally, I believe baptism is absolutely essential, and that one will not make it to heaven without it."<br /><br />If Jesus himself, the son of God and perfect in every way, was baptized then surely he was showing us that we all need to be baptized. As many people never had the chance to hear about the gosepl of Jesus Christ it makes sense that the early Saints in the New Testament did baptise the dead. I think that shows that God is a fair and equitable being. As for those of us who have the opportunity to be baptized in this life - I think we ought to take that opportunity. And what about little babies who die without baptism? Is not God just and fair? I believe all of these babies will be saved. Looking in the eyes of a baby you can't help but think they are perfect - surely there is no evil in them.<br /><br />Also I liked what Spratt had to say about those who look for God will find Him. I believe that too. When we approach God in humility, wanting to know Him, then He will help us to do so. Patience is required though. We can't expect God to tell us everything all at once.<br /><br />May we all be strong in the Lord our God!
 

JasonB

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Spratt, We are on the same page for many things and apart on others, yet we can have a very civil discussion where neither of us gets riled up or unreasonable. If only some church leaders could grasp that idea.. The disagreements that really bug me are (growing up between UMC and Baptist you are undoubtedly familiar with this, I have seen major arguments between adults) are things like method of Baptism, dunk/sprinkle. I have my belief on it, but If someone was Baptised in the opposite way, It's not my place to argue that. I think sometimes we as Christians try to do part of God's job as there is a fine line between Righteous and Judgemental if we aren't careful. Each of us will be judged for our own actions. Yes, those actions can include failing to do what we shoud or doing things we shouldn't.<br /><br />My Wife, daughter, and I recently moved and started the search for a new church. I think I freaked one set of visitors out by asking if they have traditional or contemporary services. When I worked with some youth, I was scolded by an adult for commenting that I didn't care where the kids came from or what their background was, they were welcome at our events. Maybe I'm jsut odd...
 

spratt

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Originally posted by bayman:<br />If Jesus himself, the son of God and perfect in every way, was baptized then surely he was showing us that we all need to be baptized. As many people never had the chance to hear about the gosepl of Jesus Christ it makes sense that the early Saints in the New Testament did baptise the dead. I think that shows that God is a fair and equitable being.
bayman, I also believe that God is fair AND just...His judgements will be meted out according to the Word He has given, and I believe He loves His Word more than anything because it is TRUTH. Someone asked what is a fact anyway? Well, God's Word is the only thing that CAN be assimilated as a Fact, due to His spoken Word being what brought everything into existence that IS in existence. That said, I believe that God will judge eveyone according to what is included et al in His Word. Remember where it says that the dead, both great and small, will stand before Him, and the 66 books will be opened? How many books are in the Bible? I cannot put words in God's mouth, for sure, but I believe that God will take into account who has and has not heard His gospel, and we might very well find that in Heaven there are a lot of people we never suspected we will find. But, I can guarantee, there will be NO SIN there. <br /><br />And I am with you on the babies. I cannot believe, or I hope that it is not true, that God will condemn a baby who knows no sin to be destroyed along with sinners. I find a couple scriptures though that make me feel uncomfortable about the subject, one being where it says that God destroyed the whole world save 9 sould, Noah and his family. That means that a very large number of babies were destroyed also!! And the Bible does say that we are born in iniquity, due to the sin of Adam and Eve. Another scripture I cannot get my brain to bring up to me right now, is where it mentions that a child will be made righteous through his parents, and I am thinking that if the parents are saved and living for God, the child will be saved with them if they happen to be young enough to not understand sin. I do believe that a child comes to age, different for each, that their eyes are opened and they know right from wrong without any doubts!!! Then it is up to them to make things right with God and make the decision to be saved themselves.<br /><br />And, bayman, I need to do some deep study on the subject of baptizing for the dead. I do not believe that the scripture says ANYWHERE that the Apostles ever performed that rite. And (again, I feel I have to qualify this statement so as not to offend anyone)I would not ever take the rituals or practices of the Catholic church to justify my actions. I know that someone Catholic here is going to have something to say about that, so let me say more...I believe that there are many references to the Catholic church, adn it's practices, in the Bible. I believe that the Catholic church was around before the Apostles came on the scene, but not called Catholic. I believe that the practices of the Sadducees and Pharisees are carried over to the Catholic church. The symbolism of the veil being rent when Jesus died, makes God available to EVERY man, and there was no longer the need to have a priest intervene for them. I also believe that baptism is definitely spelled out in the scripture as being immersed, for it is a symbol (as is almost all things in the Bible) of something, and in this case, a part of the Doctrine the Apostles taught, the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. In Death, we do Repentance (or die out to sin), and in Burial, we are buried with Him (and when we bury someone we cover them completely, don't we?), and of course the Resurrection occurs when we come up out of the water in new life (receive the Gift of God, the Holy Ghost). I also do not believe in the worship of idols, worship of Mary (the Bible does not EVER say anything about going to Christ through Mary or anyone else. He said that ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME, IN HEAVEN ADN IN EARTH, and that there is no other God beside Him, and it says that no man can come to the Father except by Him. I don't think it said Mary...<br /><br />I really am not trying to make any enemies, just stating my beliefs, and if the scriptures disagree with me, I am certainly open to have them opened to my understanding!!!
 

bayman

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

As Spratt said, I also am not trying to make any enemies and I do not want to offend anyone. I do enjoy discussing the gospel of our Lord and do wish to increase my own understanding.<br /><br />My thoughts on facts are that there are surely facts. Either there is a God or there is no God. One of those is a fact. My personal belief is that there is a God. If that is a fact then there are also many other facts that go along with it. I think that we first get faith in God through hearing and reading his word and feeling his Holy Spirit. At first we just have faith but our faith and understanding grows as the Lord enlightens us and teaches us.<br /><br />Speaking about baptism, babies and so forth... Many people died in the great flood in Noah's time, this is for sure. My personal thoughts are that the babies who died at that time were physically destroyed but their spirits were not destroyed. My reasononing is that the babies were not of age and could not understand good from evil. Don't we all wish that the scriptures contained more of God's word upon this subject!? As for us being born into sin starting with Adam's transgression, it seems to me that we are still judged according to what we do in life. I also reason that Jesus, the literal Son of God, was born of Mary. Although he did take on a body just like you and I, he never did sin and thus was perfect before God. Not only did he not sin but he was also perfect in obeying his Father's word in every way - even where the commandments did not seem to apply to him, such as in being baptized. Again, I wish we had more scriptures to explain this better.<br /><br />As for your comment Spratt: "is where it mentions that a child will be made righteous through his parents", I have read that too but I can't remember where it is either.<br /><br />When it comes to baptism for the dead, as you noted Spratt, the Bible doesn't say if the apostles did baptize for the dead or not..."Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are abaptized for the dead, if the dead crise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"<br /><br />Here is what I have been thinking on that. We are all commanded to be baptized. Many people have been born without ever hearing of Jesus. Somehow those people have to be baptized. Baptism for the dead is the only thing I have ever seen which accounts for how those people can still be baptized and fulfill the law of God. It doesn't seem right that God would give a commandment but not make it possible to fulfill that commandment. Jesus, after all, did die for us all and he paid very bitterly for us too. Whatever God's plan and reasoning is, it must be well thought out and perfect for that matter - though we don't fully understand it.<br /><br />Spratt, I have not heard of this before: "The symbolism of the veil being rent when Jesus died, makes God available to EVERY man, and there was no longer the need to have a priest intervene for them." I know that the priests acted on behalf of people in the temples in the Old Testament. They performed sacrifices and so forth. But what else do you mean by this? I do believe we still need clergy and ministers and so forth.<br /><br />When it comes to baptism, because of what I have studied, I do agree with Spratt on the issue of immersion. Again, I don't want to offend anyone. It does appear though that Jesus, being baptized in the Jordan River, "went up straightway out of the water". As Spratt says, this does correspond with all of the symbolism.<br /><br />I also only believe in worshipping God and his Son, Jesus Christ. To worship an idol which one would make of clay or gold or whatever is not only is an abomination before God but it doesn't make sense. Why would anyone worship anything made from their own hands which has no power at all? Mary, may have been a mother here on Earth to Jesus but only his Father was and is God. And not to offend anyone, but I do believe that we should only worship God and his Son.<br /><br />Interesting discussion!
 

spratt

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Originally posted by bayman:<br /> Spratt, I have not heard of this before: "The symbolism of the veil being rent when Jesus died, makes God available to EVERY man, and there was no longer the need to have a priest intervene for them." I know that the priests acted on behalf of people in the temples in the Old Testament. They performed sacrifices and so forth. But what else do you mean by this? I do believe we still need clergy and ministers and so forth.<br /><br />Interesting discussion!
Bayman, I didn't make my thought very clear, did I? I also agree about needing a Pastor, for the Bible also says, that "by the foolishness of preaching shall they be saved"...I PERSONALLY believe that one cannot be saved without a preacher.<br /><br />OK, now to the veil...you know that the only thing that seperated the ark of God from the rest of teh temple was teh big heavy veil, and it has been said that it was so strong and heavey that two teams of oxen could not have torn it asunder...only the High Priest was allowed to go in behind the veil, and that was where God was for teh Israelites. The Priest would go behind the veil, perform the duties he had, and converse with God, then return to tell the people what God had to say to them.<br /><br />When Jesus died, it is written that there was a great earthquake as had never been before, and many of the graves of the dead saints broke open adn they walked in teh city again. Also, the gigantic, big old heavy, veil, was torn in half!!! That typifies that no longer did the people have to be seperated from God, and now they had an open avenue to talk to God themselves. Also, no longer did the people have to depend on the Priest to go before God for them!!!<br /><br />I know what you mean about the babies. I do not even profess to know what happened to them in the flood, but what you said makes sense. God was washing away the sin of the whole world by water, purging away the filth. Yes, little ones did die also, but their souls may very well have not been destroyed...<br /><br />Did that help, Bayman?
 

aspeck

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

As a minister of the Gospel I have watched and read this thread with interest, ready to jump in if it got "out of hand". I must commend all that have participated in this thread for addressing it with civility and concern for one anothers feelings. If we addressed more threads and topics with this same care, the moderators would have nothing to do!<br /><br />I do feel that it is important to know what you believe and be able to back it up. That is why I have been very happy to see many here not just go off on a tangent, but back up statements with thought out reasons and scriptures. It is important to know what we believe, but to be ready for change, when we see something that makes more sense to us, or God reveals more truth of His mystery, or whatever you want to call it.<br /><br />I also get very upset with people, leaders, and denominations who think they are the only ones that are right. As I have mentioned in a different thread, I do feel that what I believe is right. If I didn't believe that, then why would I stick to a belief that I knew was wrong. However, I am always ready to hear a different explanation, because made there is a different way to interpret it.<br /><br />Also, the God I serve is a GOd of diversity. Look at His creation. It is so vast and awesome, full of different shapes and varieties. We as humans are all different - in personality, looks, etc. So, it means there should be a variety of ways to worship the Creator.<br /><br />With that said, I believe there are a couple of definite constants. First, the Bible is the inherent Word of God, although there are many different translations (and I like many of them, RSV, KJV, and New Century Version are my personal favorites). In the Bible it seems clear to me that there is one way to the Father, and that is through the Son, Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. He was the only perfect man that ever walked this earth.<br /><br />Now, I must leave for a meeting, but I wanted to address one of Bayman's questions about children. I feel that it is important for parents to dedicate children unto God when they are born (2 Tim 1:12 says that "...I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."). If we commit the children unto God, He will keep them until they are of the age of accountability that they can make up their own mind of whether they want to serve God or not. Also Matt 18:10 tells us that we should despise not the little ones, for in Heaven their angels do always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven. Jesus was stating this about the souls of the little ones.<br /><br />As parents, we have a duty and responsibility to raise and teach our children in hte ways of the Lord, so "when they are old, they will not depart from them."<br /><br />I could go on, but I must leave for my appointment. Thank-you for this thread and the civility in which it has been conducted.<br /><br />EF, I truly hope you find what you are looking for, and if I can be of any service to you, or anyone else on this board, please do not hesitate to give me a shout.
 

mrbscott19

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Originally posted by mikeandronda:<br /> Mrbscott I disagre with you but to be more to the point there is fact mixed in in all religion but its not belief...... its faith that makes some one a particpent in religion.
But without the belief in God and his ways, there is no faith. You have to believe in order to have faith.
 

mikeandronda

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Awesome post Aspeck......I have to say this has been the most civil religous based thread and I hope for now on we can speak of things as this with such understanding that we all are different and will preceive things differently. I love Iboats for this very reason.....I have learned and have grown in many ways because of threads just like this one. I thank each one of you for being the people that you are.
 

mikeandronda

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Msbscott.....many people believe in God, but have no faith.....I believed in God my whole life......But I had not had faith in him till i was 28 yrs old.
 

mrbscott19

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

How can you believe in something you don't have faith in? Believing in god requires faith in his existence. Having faith in God requires believing he exists. You can't have one without the other. The words faith and belief are synonyms.
 

Elmer Fudge

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

I think M&R meant that one can believe in a God but still be lacking faith.Did i get that right?
 

mrbscott19

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

In order to believe in God, you must have faith in his existence. You don't have to have faith in his abilities, just his being. I'm guessing the faith M&R is talking about is just that, faith in his power, not his being.<br /><br />My point was that you can't believe in something and not have faith in that very same thing.
 

bayman

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Spratt, I think that you described it well. Now I have to sit down with the Good Book and make sure I fully understand it and what it means. Thank you for the explanation!<br /><br />I agree with Aspeck about raising children. Children should be taught the gospel of Jesus from a young age. Without the gospel in their lives they will miss many blessings. Besides the Lord commands it and the Bible is very clear that this should be done. I do like the scripture Aspeck mentioned (Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.)
 

ZooMbr

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

WOW - I need to get on more; don't know how I missed this post. Kinda like why I choose the name ZooMbr. Really enjoyed your posts - makes these winter days go faster.<br /><br />I'm with Admin5; just to offer a little support from another LDS member. And I try to live our teaching to the best of my abilities; if all believers in Christ would do the same, what a better world we would live in -- same goes for many non-christen religions. I don't know of any religion that believes in God that doesn't teach tolerance. One of my 'small' issues is how so many profess a belief in Christ and His teachings; then, don't live those teachings and don't vote for those who would support the principles of those teaching.<br /><br />My small rant -- enjoyed everyone's comments; and, the respect shown for others on the post: that's what makes this a site I visit everyday!
 

spratt

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

aspeck, I will AMEN that about dedicating the children at birth!!! I gave both my boys to God as soon as my wife was able to make the trip to church adn it is always such a beautiful and emotional service!!and the family is just starting to come to church and live for God. The story of Hannah is wonderful and how she dedicated Samuel to God and the service of God.<br /><br />I have also enjoyed this discussion, folks. Thanks for letting me speak and express my beleifs, and I have truly enjoyed hearing the other sides. God bless all, and have a great evening. Am now heading home from work...
 

butch290

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

Spratt, the verse you are looking for my be 1 cor.7:14 I do not know what all that verse means, but I believe it. Isa. 40:11 He shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom. Matt. 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.<br /><br /> Hope this helps, peace<br /><br /> butch
 

OLDSPUD

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Re: I'm not a religious man, but......

I am a Mormon, I served a two year mission in Los Angeles. This stream is very interesting.<br />Since my mission, I have been quite non-agressive in either promoting or defending my faith. As I have gotten older, I have learned to respect everyone for their beliefs, and the goodness that it brings to them.<br />JB must know someone in the LDS faith, what he has said is what we believe. There is much about the Mormons that is misunderstood, but I have learned to be cool about it. My kids were brought up in my faith, but I have never pushed them, All but one have been and now are more active than I, and I have five children. I honor all of your opinions and beliefs. <br />Their is much about this life that I can't explain but I believe terrible things happen because people choose to harm others because of their free agency, which we believe in strongly.
 
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