I'm comming out..

SoulWinner

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Re: I'm comming out..

Gee, what the correlations sociologists have made between the dissolution of the "nuclear family" the decay of society?
 

POINTER94

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Re: I'm comming out..

Second, you bring up hate laws that could impede your ability to practice your religion. Well, those hate laws are going to be based on intolerance and violence.
What? We are intolerant all the time. We don't tolerate terrorism, we don't tolerate bad schools, dumping sewage into our lakes, heck you won't tolerate reinstituting slavery would you? Does that make you intolerant of new ideas? We are Americans and we have a RIGHT TO OUR OWN OPINIONS, and the practice of our religious teachings regardless of how you label us. If you think intolerant isn't a label how would you feel if your boss called you intolerant in your permanent file?<br /><br /><br />
People don't get married to strenghten society, they get married to strengthen their own relationships.
If that were the case why do they want society to recognize their marriages?<br /><br />Look I could care less how people wish to conduct their personal lives. That is the beauty of this country. But this is a dodge for political and social gain. The Miracle on 34th street play, if million of children mail letters to santa and the government delivers them to Mr. Smith then the government recognizes Mr. Smith as santa.<br /><br />It is offensive to me that I would pay to support a lifestyle I find morally repugnant. In exactly the same way Roe v. Wade went from a womans right to choose to me supporting abortions with my tax dollars. This is a slippery slope issue and anyone can see that, whether that bothers them is another issue.
 

SCO

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Re: I'm comming out..

As a married man, I can tell you that there is no point, at all, to marriage but for kids and family. People do it for the reasons you describe, but that isn't it. You don't realize this until you have children. Up to then, you're just stupid, and following the rules without really understanding why. Also, I cleaned up the phraseology to read"It is about a process(marriage) that evolved in our society that sanctions marriage for men and women because the family is the building block for the society. "
 

wilkin250r

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Re: I'm comming out..

And what if (and I'll agree it would be a HUGE if..) you could be guarenteed that granting gay marriage would end the whole issue? No more movements, no more parades. It would never affect your taxes, and your pastor could still preach against it just as he does against pre-marital sex?<br /><br />Basically, what I am attempting to do is try to remove the slippery slope arguement. What if you could be guarenteed that there would be no slippery slope? (granted, that's a big IF...)<br /><br />Would still disagree with it then? Not to be confused with morally against it, you're still free to do that, but would you "reluctantly agree" to gay marriage?
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: I'm comming out..

It will end up being the end of mankind before it's over.<br /><br />Everyone turns gay and stops having children and then, poof, everyone dies and the Earth is left with nothing but the animals once again.
 

POINTER94

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Re: I'm comming out..

Thats the problem... You can't. But you got me there, if things were different they wouldn't be the same.<br /><br />I don't march on San Fran when they have their mock ceremonies, I don't throw people out of my social events when they bring their "partners". I therefor through my non-action, approve of their relationships as they are. When they are sad I listen, when they are happy I celebrate, just like all my other friends. And they see themselves as married, whether the state signed a piece of paper or not.<br /><br />That is not what we are talking about here. Sorry
 

SCO

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Re: I'm comming out..

Again, once you turn it gay, it is no longer marriage because it is no longer about building a family the old fashioned way. It is something else...partner promise for cohabitation maybe.
 

blacktie

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
108
Re: I'm comming out..

This whole issue wasn't about cohabitation anyway...<br /><br />it was about medical benefits (that part of my premiums pay for) and tax and governmental benefits (which part of my taxes pay for).<br /><br />I have no issue if two people want to live together, care for one another, etc. BUT...the issue becomes different when public and private sector insurance money foots the bill for part of it.<br /><br />the real slippery slope here goes like this...<br />(not a real story...but the point is there)<br /><br />a guy and his roommate (both heterosexual males) are struggling to make ends meet. so out of a desperate act, they go down to the couthouse, and get themselves married. no, they do not turn gay...they continue to date women, etc. then they can split the cost of the "family plan" medical insurance from one of them, and they get the additional benefit of claiming "married filing jointly" on their taxes. this continues until one of them decides to marry a woman...at which point, they just get a no-contest divorce, and live happily ever after.<br /><br />far fetched?...think again. people already "game" the marriage system of the hetero world for all sorts of reasons. we would just open it up to a bunch more people. here are some questions to ponder:<br /><br />1: do married people have to cohabitate to legally remain married?<br /><br />2: do married people need to have sexual activity to legally remain married?<br /><br />society needs to seriously think about the floodgates of abuse that would be opened.
 

POINTER94

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Re: I'm comming out..

Just to tag on, it opens the loopholes up to "everyone". Do we have to prove we are gay or straight, and wouldn't that be intolerant of bi-sexuals. Slippery Slippery Slippery.<br /><br />Try this on, how about adoption. Two couples same income, same everything except one couple is gay. We are all equal now. To point out that one is gay would be "intolerant". This would make each decision of adoption a political decision. We could establish quota's and fund studies to make sure they are set right, then make it a case for the supreme court to decide and when they change judges, relitigate, and then tort law if not followed as every single person thinks it should, and then...... The only one who truely loses is the child.
 

GradyBob

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Dec 8, 2003
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Re: I'm comming out..

Hey Guys,<br />Wilkin, no problem- none taken.<br />We once attended one of the largest churches in Central Florida and a few years back the pastor Dr. Joel Hunter laid out the issue of tolerance. Ultimately, if we tolerate everything (behaviors, not environmental pollution and so forth) then at some point the teachings in the New Testament will conflict with this tolerance. My faith has black and white, right and wrong and forgiveness. Tolerance as the ultimate virture has none of these as nothing is wrong and therefore nothing needs to be forgiven. See people already throw around the words hate speech. So, if people determine preaching against homosexuality is a form of hate speech because some whacko goes out and kills a gay man and in his defense he said he heard at church, then voila, we got hate speech and preachers shutting up. <br /><br />I agree with pointer94 on being intolerant.I am intolerant. I am intolerant of people stepping on and mocking traditional values. You know what I am saying??? I I am intolerant of my children being rude to adults and other kids.<br /><br />My true fear is for my kids, expecailly my disabled son who can not determine right from wrong and godd from evil. He trusts every person who has ever spoken to him because so far only good souls have worked with him or taught him. He knows of nothing else. The slippery slope for me is for some nutball perv to abuse him. While legalizing or not legalizing gay marriage will not prevent this, legalizing it will crack the door open a bit further. My fear may seem absurd, we legalize gay marriage and fully endorse the gay lifestyle, it only seems the slippery slope will be to embrace all sorts of sexual behaviors. About 2 or 3 years ago the ACLU took a MA home for adult retarded people to court because they prevented the residents from engaging in sex of any kind. They argued that a 29 year old male could engage in consensual sex even though he had the intillect of a 4 year old. This was a Catholic facility and the facility lost this case.<br /><br />SBN- if everyone turns gay and poof we all end, then who will buy my used boat when I want another one? <br /><br />Seriously, the whole thing of tolerance leads to everything being equal. Single moms, single dads, dad& dad and mom&mom are equal and just as good as mom& dad. Remember when a single mom was trying to raise kids and the kids were said to come from a broken home. Now there are no broken homes, just homes with different furniture or whatever. Family is what you are in- that's tolerance and making people feel good about bad decisions- PC at its best. The reality of it is if you spend time volunteering in any elementary school you can pick out which kids come from broken homes and which ones do not. So I completely agree the best and optimum environment to raise kids is with male and female, just ask my 3 year old about mom and dad and he will tell you the differences. Marriage is the security and permenance that kids need to have to become well functioning adults and that's its purpose from the Old Testiment to now. Gay folks can not duplicate that function w/out adoption or artificial means, even then it is not the same as man and women, well not yet anyway.<br />Gotta go, my kid is needing my time.
 

SoulWinner

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Re: I'm comming out..

And what if (and I'll agree it would be a HUGE if..) you could be guarenteed that granting gay marriage would end the whole issue? No more movements, no more parades. It would never affect your taxes, and your pastor could still preach against it just as he does against pre-marital sex?<br />
Did the Civil Rights Act (Republican legislation) end the blathering of Rev. Jessy Jackson and Luise Farrakhan?<br /><br />Did the ERA squelch the incessant nagging of the National Organization of Women, or groups like Vagina's Vote?<br /><br />Would a new tact of appeasement cause radical Muslims to lay down their arms??<br /><br />The only thing that will end this, and calls for reparations, and threats from Muslim extremists and all these segregated special interests, is for them each, respectively to face a strong united front that they are assured they cannot win any victory over, no matter how small. Do not give an inch, do not give them any reason to believe that they will ever have the opportunity to take a mile, because both history and contemporary events have demonstrated that once they smell blood they will never stop.
 

Pascal

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Jul 9, 2002
Messages
252
Re: I'm comming out..

The “IF” question is one that can never be legitimately answered because the reason behind the “IF” will never go away. Why would I commit myself to an answer that would support what repulses me and tears down society when I know that the question is a red herring??<br /><br />The gay marriage situation is alarming enough but what is more alarming is the fact that the official gay lobby organizations will not disassociate themselves from organizations like NAMBLA and actively defend what I believe to be pornography involving children.<br /><br />Here in Canada they have convinced a judge to rule that drawn pictures and written stories have artistic merit and therefore allowable, when the characters are underage and being abused in several ways. YUK!!! How a one human can find artistic merit in the portrayed abuse of another human, especially a child, is beyond me.<br /><br />If that judge were a worm, I’d be ashamed to be a worm too!!!! :mad: <br /><br />rant over.<br /><br />JD
 

Skinnywater

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Mar 7, 2002
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Re: I'm comming out..

I suppose I might as well "come out" to. Everyone is having such a good time at, what the heck?<br />Seventy some odd posts about a group of people that in the vast majority, mind their own business and want to be left alone.<br /><br />My first encounter with a homosexual was when I was 3 yrs. old. He was my only sibling. At that time and in the years that were to follow his and my upbringing were identical. Our environment included my father and mother, my brother and I at the same nightly dinner table. In all my 49 years of comtemplation our upbringing was nearly perfect. I'm truly blessed with the memories of my childhood.<br /><br />My younger brother and I shared a bedroom. His bed and "stuff" was on his side and mine was well on my side of "the line" we guarded constantly. Early on, and I mean well before the concept of sex was even an understandable concept to us, things were different. And not subtle differences either.<br />On my side of the bedroom I had Revelle plastic models and snake skins. Later in years my Boy Scout awards, scuba gear, fishing poles and hunting gear.<br />On his side would be books of tropical plants and animals. That later would be meticulously decorated with knic-knacs and with fine 35mm pictures taken by him of those same tropical plants and animals.<br /><br />I was the kid that was handing my dad wrenches. My brother was a loner, playing by himself. You could usually locate him over by his beloved peacocks or behind the garage where he made an eloborate "Lost In Space" ships control panel. That had pictures drawn of scenes from the show on the back wall in colored chalk.<br /><br />We grew up living on a lake north of Tampa. I was barefoot skiing by 10 years old, yet my brother only tried it a time or two and could care less. Same with sports, any kind. I excelled in swimming, skiing, Scouting, hunting and fishing, my horses. If it took competition, an ego, or just plain testosterone, my brother had no part in it.<br /><br />At the age of 11-12 or so, it came to me through an incident. I was a new owner of a 22 rifle passed to me by dad. It was my first hunting trip out in a nearby grove. I shot two Cottontail's. Before I made it to the house my brother, as usual, was behind the garage playing with his imaginary space show. I was going to proudly show off my kill to my brother. I laughed at him real hard and chased him with the two dead rabbits, all the while him screaming, crying as hard as I've ever witnessed before. Throughout the years, if it was compassion, reserve, style, meekness..........all the things I or my friends had no interest in, were part of his life. <br />And you have to understand, this was at age 4,8, 13 or 20.<br /><br />Yeah, I busted a head or two. At 14, I was 175 pounds or so. My brother was as skinny as a rail, at age 14 he'd make 90 pounds. And at 14 my brother didn't have any sexual feelings at all. He'd be mimicking some exotic bird call or painting a picture of some South American Orchid. Yet through most of my brothers years in school he was the kid that got constantly got picked on. Branded early as the fa..ggot, qu..eer, on and on. It followed him grade to grade, school to school.<br />Shoot, I even kicked his butt a time or two because I'd have to make room in my day to meet my brother at the school bus stop. However, if it weren't for the respect my brother had from my own group of friends he'd have it a lot worse. They being older, they'd do their share protecting him. Because they had come to appreciate the things my brother could do, the knowledge of exotic flowers, art in beautiful drawings and pictures. Things we were inept in.<br /><br />Around 15 years old, soon after I became an Eagle Scout, my parents divorced. Gone was the home on the lake, the horses, the family boat. Gone was my brothers and my room full of childhood "stuff". Gone was his beloved Peacocks and spaceship. At 17 I quit my junior year in high school and joined the Army. My brother who lived a few more years with my mom until he could legally quit school. He got a good paying job at a printing shop in Tampa and lived in a beautiful old neighborhood off Bayshore Blvd. He freelanced with Sunset?, maybe Sunrise magazine (a Florida living magazine). There, many of his photographs and exotic garden articles were featured monthly. He was hired to setup and design formal gardens and study exotic plants.<br /><br />I got married to my brothers best friend. Her and I raised 3 daughters, the same as I was raised. But my kids uncle was special to them, for he had a fine home of crystal glass, fine art, trendy clothes and an uptown sophisticated life. While I was bringing home the days grease, barely getting by, renting a trailer in a rundown park. Still fishing and killing cottontails for supper 3-4 times a week. Yeah, 29 years (next week) with the same girl my brother introduced to me.<br /><br />My brother had such a huge circle of friends. All of them to be sure were a little different. But I was a pretty good judge of character. My opinion was one that none of them had a mean bone in their body. They wouldn't march in any parade or presume to be ceremoniously married. They were all polite, well educated, successful and highly productive people. There wasn't a single time they made me feel uncomfortable. Although sometimes flamboyant, they were all unassuming and above all harmless. <br />My brother and his friends were all very quiet, private and mostly wanted to let all those years of brutal name calling in school to be a distant past. Surely didn't want to make judgements, so they wouldn't be bothered by the "straights". After all, what were once schoolbus fights as children, could easily mean an emergency room visit...or much worse, as adults.<br /><br />My brother died of AIDS back in '92. Thirty four years old and had a rough row to hoe all his school years. He had a mom and dad that loved him. Scores of people who attended his funeral. And one "tough guy" brother that never quite got the chance to tell him how much he loved and respected him.<br />A family, a brother that grew up with a homosexual. One that was a homosexual long before he knew what sex was. One that didn't get abused, locked in a closet or beat by his dad. And simply a homosexual that after all is said and done, the guilt by his parents as to why, and how could this happen. <br />The plain and simple truth can only be known by those who are in the position to really know all the intimate details. <br />They are born that way.<br /><br />Now don't get your back up thinking I'm really gonna take what is written by strangers on a www board personally. I don't and I'm not.<br />I don't expect a change of minds and I'm not going to make moral judgements here on this thread. But I'll say in total confidence that most of what is written here in hate, is done with understandable ignorance. And any "unreasonable fears" are your own problem. <br />Not all people are born with generous amounts of understanding, compassion and goodwill.
 

dogsdad

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Aug 8, 2003
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Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by wilkin250r:<br />
Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> You are essentially claiming that morality has nothing to do with the laws we make. Your argument is hollow.<br /><br />I am arguing that legalizing a behavior does not make it "normal" or "healthy." We as a society have norms, and it is not acceptable for some group to attempt to force a change on society that it does not want.<br /><br />Homose*uality is a perversion, just as necrophilia and pedo***lia are. Period. I will not roll over and accept it as a legitimate, normal lifestyle, EVER. <br />
I would respond to three different points. First, while I would agree that morality has had influence on laws, it is not the sole absolute reason. Would you feel comfortable with PETA making laws based on their morality? I know I certainly wouldn't! Likewise, I don't think we should make laws based on my or your morals and impose them on homosexuals. If their activities do not interfere with anybody else's rights, then they should be free to do as they choose under the same restrictions imposed on homosexuality.<br /><br />Second, it is perfectly acceptable for minorities in society (whether racial or sexual) to attempt to change society. It's the American way. Whether the issue be racial, sexual, environmental, or humanitary, smaller sections of society are free to petition to the majority of society for change. Ending segragation, woman's liberalism, the EPA and PETA are all testament to this. I bring PETA as failed example. Society didn't change, we still eat red meat, we still wear fur coats. But that doesn't make their efforts and goals "not acceptable for some group to attempt to force a change on society that it does not want" (although I WILL agree that some of their methods ARE unacceptable)<br /><br />Third, I will agree. Homosexuality is a perversion. But oral sex is also a perversion. There are LOTS of perversions in society, but only a handful are illegal/discouraged. Pedo***lia isn't illegal because it's a perversion, it's illegal because it's psychologically damaging to a child. Bestiality is illegal because an animal doesn't have the mental capacity to consent to sex. Foot fetishes, bondage, voyerism (consentual) are ALL perversions, but all are also accepted. Why is homosexuality the one perversion that's not acceptable?
I don't know why I should discuss this with you. I have nothing to prove to you. I will respond to your final question though: because it IS harmful and it is DISGUSTING. And it is not "the one" perversion that's not acceptable---it's one of many.<br /><br />I don't care to take part in this discussion anymore. Too much like talking to a fencepost.
 

Carphunter

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Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Messages
2,061
Re: I'm comming out..

.......well now, let me say that I do not consider myself ignorant, and I do not "hate" Homosexuals, I just disapprove of what they do.<br /><br />Disapproval and hate have different meanings all together. You can disapprove, and not hate. At least I can.<br /><br />I have nothing further to add.<br /><br />Good day mates. :)
 

PatPatterson

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Joined
May 23, 2004
Messages
640
Re: I'm comming out..

I've read this thread and some thoughts occurred to me.<br /><br />Why is it that if a person feels someone else is doing something that is morally objectionable then that person is automatically intolerant? Just because something is legal, doesn't make it morally right. There are many things that are legal that are morally unconscionable. It is legal for Politicians to sell influence to contributors, but that does not make it morally right. It is legal for courts and judges to “interpret” the law, and hand out lenient sentences, or probation, based on their own political affiliation and need. That does not make it morally right. It is legal for people who have money, influence, and power, to be treated differently in the eyes of the system than people of lesser means, but again, that does not make it morally right. I have the right to publicly protest any or all of these activities. I have the right to petition the government to change these laws. I have the right to burn the flag of this country, in public, and by doing any of these things, I am considered an activist. By disagreeing with some person's behavior, I am considered intolerant.<br /><br />The fact that we are sentient, and more intelligent than the cat mentioned above, and that we can make a decision based upon this intelligence, just enforces the fact that our decisions must be based on morals, and on right and wrong, whether these morals are based upon religion or just common sense.<br /><br />I believe that we are created by God, and religious and moral beliefs are the basis for almost every social rule that exists, from "Murder is Illegal" (Thou shalt not kill) to "Don't sass me young man" (Honor your father and mother"). According to my beliefs, homosexuality is wrong, because it is not the way God meant it to be. It is my right to believe this. It is your right not to, and I am not trying to force you to believe this.<br /><br />But, assuming that I am wrong, and there isn’t a God, and if we all came from some primordial protoplasm. If all this just happened, and we are merely another species of animal on this planet, albeit a bit more advanced than the others, and homosexual activity is normal and to be expected, then why is it that in every other species of animal on earth, males fight each other for the right to mate with FEMALES, and not each other? Why do we not see this “normal” behavior in animals that function purely on instinct? Maybe there is a difference between "normal" and "legal?"<br /><br />Just wondering.
 
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