I'm comming out..

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

TV, Media, Bulletin boards, are all saturated with it. If you are hetero w kids,statistically speaking, it is an impediment. We don't think it is something that we should have to accept when it is not acceptable in our view. I shouldn't have responded to this thread. Society is going to do what it will do. You will have your gay world. Woopiitiyio. Man won't we be the pride of the western hemisphere. I think you have the right to be who you are, but nobody has the right to unconditional acceptance because everybody has a right to a contrary opinion, at least until we have the thought police.I would not have this opinion but for the confrontational in your face self righteous on parade posture of this movement.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by wilkin250r:<br /><br />My reasoning is that we could not outlaw homesexuality any more than we could outlaw pre-marital sex. If one were to take the stance of morality and/or religion, both are a sin, or morally wrong, but if we cannot ban pre-marital sex on the basis of morality/religion, then neither can we ban homosexuality. Thus, one would be almost forced to agree that homosexuality is legal, even if we personally object.<br /><br />And if it is legal, then people should be able to engage in homosexual activity within the same guidelines given for heterosexuality. Obviously a couple cannot engage in sex in public, but two women holding hands, or two men kissing in the park, on the bus, or even on television should all be perfectly legal/normal activity.<br /><br />Now, as far as explaining that activity to your child, unfortunately that is a consequence that YOU have to deal with as a result of YOUR choice to raise a child in this day and age. [/QB]

If we make necrophilia legal, then it will be "perfectly legal/normal activity." Boy, talk about convoluted thinking!

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by SCO:<br />I think you have the right to be who you are, but nobody has the right to unconditional acceptance

But that's the point I'm trying to make. No, I don't believe that everybody has the right to unconditional acceptance, but I DO believe that everybody has the right to equal treatment under the law, and to engage in legal activity. Homosexuality is legal, plain and simple. And because it is legal, it should follow the same guidelines as heterosexuality.<br /><br />Imagine if somebody told you that you could only kiss your wife in public if she was under 35yrs old, and weighed less than 160 lbs, because nobody wants to see it otherwise. Wouldn't you say that is discrimination? A pefectly legal activity like kissing your wife is legal for some, but not legal for others, based solely on an "ickiness" factor.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> If we make necrophilia legal, then it will be "perfectly legal/normal activity." Boy, talk about convoluted thinking!

Well, first off I don't see it as the same arguement, since necrophilia has a whole multitude of issues that are not present in normal sexual activity.<br /><br />But, since you bring up the arguement, I would say that IF necrophilia were made legal, then it should follow the same lines as normal heterosexuality. Certainly not in public, or on public television, but it would be acceptable on late-night television, private movies, anything of the sort. Even though I would find it personally objectionable and disgusting, as long as it is a LEGAL activity, deemed legal by society, I cannot prohibit anyody from engaging in the activity.

 

[blacktie]

Re: I'm comming out..

you guys are all just necrophobic.<br /><br />

 

[POINTER94]

Re: I'm comming out..

A marriage is human recognition of the biological imperitive that allows for the propogation of the species. To ensure that this occurs, nature has implemented sex drive. We also see that the male/female pair is the "ideal" scenario for the raising of children as the charactoristics that are manifested in the sexes are imparted, defined, and then associated into a childs experiences and then into an understanding of what it means to be a human being. Can this be accomplished in other settings? Sure. But nature has defined by the process what is best. <br /><br />The equipment we are born with is also a key to what is healthy and unhealthy. The square peg into a round hole comes to mind when others define homosexual activity as "natural". Please, just check the health journals. Homosexual sex is considered High-Risk. As for lesbians, why is it they are always trying to mimic the real thing but are "repulsed" by the thought that the real thing would be more natural. I don't pretend to understand what goes on in the bath houses and waysides of this country but it can barely be defined as an act of love, the best discription I have heard is mutual masterbation. They have basterdized procreation for recreation and want the rest of us to overlook that fact. In fact to challenge them is to now be a social outcast, a HOMOPHOBE. Cute....<br /><br />To accept all the other deviant acts is only maybe 1/2 a step away, max.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

It makes for interesting reading, but nature does not define governing law. It's natural to be angry at someone and wish to kill them, but hat doesn't make murder legal.<br /><br />Smoking is also "high risk" but it's still legal.<br /><br />Masturbation does not procreate, though MANY people engage in it. In fact, many health experts would say it is a healthy activity.<br /><br />You are trying to justify a ban on homosexual marriage as "un-natural". I say that procreation does not always motivate personal activity, and nature does not determine governing law.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: I'm comming out..

Wilkin250r said;<br />Obviously a couple cannot engage in sex in public, but two women holding hands, or two men kissing in the park, on the bus, or even on television should all be legal/normal activity.

You call this normal activity? <br /><br />You think this "should" be normal activity? <br /><br />Study the human anatomy pal, this ain't normal activity. I am sick and tired of people trying to pass this crap off as "normal".<br /><br />This kind of thinking disgusts me to no end.<br /><br />........and again, very well said Pointer. I 110% agree.

 

[blacktie]

Re: I'm comming out..

again...I hate to repost what I have already stated, but if this were normal activity, and all of the people on the planet engaged in strictly homosexual relationships, we would be extinct in one generation. wilkins "governing law" won't change that fact one bit.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: I'm comming out..

I say that procreation does not always motivate personal activity, and nature does not determine governing law.

It doesn't affect the tax code much but to take your murder analogy, we have: First degree murder, second degree murder, third degree murder, manslaughter, justifiable homicide, etc.<br /><br />These graduated degrees of murder take into account natural human experiences and a "reasonable" understanding of the human condition. So nature does play a role in the law.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Apparently I'm causing a lot of controversy, so let me clarify.<br /><br />By "normal" I don't mean biologically normal. If you want to use biology as an arguement, then women over 160 lbs should not be allowed to wear skimpy clothing, since our biological sex drive has determined overwieght women to be disgusting. I can think of a thousand absurd arguements on the topic of biology and anatomy.<br /><br />By "normal" I mean normal under the eyes of the law. There should not be any restrictions on homosexual activity that the heterosexual equivalent is not also restricted, because it is a legal activity. For example, heterosexual intercourse is obviously prohibited in public, and thus homosexual intercourse should be also. But if a man can kiss a woman on television, than a man should also be able to kiss another man on television. By "normal" I mean that both should be equally allowable under the law. The law should see them both equally, THIS is what is meant by normal. According to the law, holding hands, kissing, anything of the sort should be normal, whether heterosexual or homosexual.

 

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

Why shouldn't all intercourse in public not be normal. Why shouldn't beastiality be normal. You can fall in romantic love with your cat, and it is legal, but should it be accepted as normal. Should man/cat be allowed to have civil union/marriage? You can make logical arguments apply here too, but we know better.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: I'm comming out..

SCO<br /><br />Do that to your cat - you go to jail! We have more respect for cats than that.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Quite simply, a man and woman, or a woman and a woman, can have consentual sex. A cat does not have the mental capacity to consent. And to head off the arguement before it appears, a CHILD also does not have the mental capacity to consent to sex. Even if a child were to agree to have sex, knowing the physical act, they certainly do not understand the emotional a psychological implications, therefore do not have the full capacity to engage in consentual sex. Thus the laws prohibiting such activity.<br /><br />The same arguement would then go for marriage. A dog cannot agree to marry a human, they don't have the capacity to understand it.<br /><br />Now, the next arguement to fly at me will be incestual marriage, because they obviously have the capacity to understand marriage and engage in consentual sex. Already several states allow cousins to marry, but should a man be allowed to marry his sister? The arguements against it would be possible birth defects, as well as the same religious/moral issues revolving around same-sex marriage. So before I post my views, I would like to hear a few of YOUR views regarding incestual marriage, because to me it seems nearly the same topic.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Just for the record, before you all label me as a godless liberal, I'll say that I am quite the opposite. The reason I say gay marriage/civil union should be allowed is because I have a deep-rooted, fundamental belief that we should not impose our morality and religious beliefs on other people, because I don't want other people forcing their religion and morality on ME.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: I'm comming out..

If you want to use biology as an arguement, then women over 160 lbs should not be allowed to wear skimpy clothing, since our biological sex drive has determined overwieght women to be disgusting

Please, you can't be serious. Society and popular culture have perpetuated that myth, not biology. <br /><br /><br />

So before I post my views, I would like to hear a few of YOUR views regarding incestual marriage, because to me it seems nearly the same topic.

I say that procreation does not always motivate personal activity, and nature does not determine governing law. You already have..<br /><br /><br />

Quite simply, a man and woman, or a woman and a woman, can have consentual sex.

Sex (seks) Latin sexus; base of secare to cut or divide. 1. either of the two divisions of organisms distinguished as male or female, males or females (especially men or women) collectively. 2. the charactor of being male or female; all of the things which distinguish a male from a female. 3. anything connected with sexual gratification or reproduction or the urge for these, especially the attraction of individuals of one sex for those of the other. Websters<br /><br />This is a false premise, women cannot have sex with another woman. It is a term of convenience.<br /><br /><br />

And to head off the arguement before it appears, a CHILD also does not have the mental capacity to consent to sex. Even if a child were to agree to have sex, knowing the physical act, they certainly do not understand the emotional a psychological implications, therefore do not have the full capacity to engage in consentual sex. /QUOTE] <br /><br />Familiar with todays modern times, the ACLU defending NAMBLA, 10 year olds giving birth, handing out condoms to 13 year olds in our high schools (you know, they are going to do it anyways). Are laws unenforced laws at all? We are already there... <br /><br />In other societies, the marriage age is whatever the parents want them to be. Don't worry, this used to be the law here too. How about freedom of expression. Multiple wives like 7-10 of them. Hell let society pay for it. Wherever you put your uglies is always about love, ask a *********. Who is the government to dictate what the pursuit of happiness is. But don't worry this isn't a slippery slope. Right. When does the line get drawn. There was not even a study to validate the decision to change the status of homosexuality from a mental disease to a normal "lifestyle". Politics, Politics, Politics.<br /><br />Homosexuals are not to be hated, but their relationships (lifestyle choices) are not to be embraced as an "equal" to a heterosexuals. I don't believe they deserve to be hospitalized, quarantined, or treated with disrespect, but we don't let the blind drive a car cuz it just isn't fair. The social quagmeir we face in the next decade will define whether our country is headed for greatness of decadance.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by wilkin250r:<br /> Just for the record, before you all label me as a godless liberal, I'll say that I am quite the opposite. The reason I say gay marriage/civil union should be allowed is because I have a deep-rooted, fundamental belief that we should not impose our morality and religious beliefs on other people, because I don't want other people forcing their religion and morality on ME.

It is immoral and a sin to murder. Therefore, using your logic, making murder illegal is an imposition of morality and religous belief. <br /><br />You are waaaaaay out on a limb here, wilkin250r.<br /> <br /><br /><br />-dd-

 

[GradyBob]

Re: I'm comming out..

Wilkin 250 R -Wrote -Just for the record, before you all label me as a godless liberal, I'll say that I am quite the opposite. The reason I say gay marriage/civil union should be allowed is because I have a deep-rooted, fundamental belief that we should not impose our morality and religious beliefs on other people, because I don't want other people forcing their religion and morality on ME.<br /><br />Wow, I have read through this because some guy said he was coming out.<br /><br />Wilkin- The very thing you are opposed to is happening. The aethiest/secular world view of things IS telling people of faith what is right and wrong and is redefining truth based on world views. It is telling people of faith should not believe their faith because being gay is of genetics or what ever. I am being told to accept something in my heart I can not. Political Correctness is mind/thought control. I have a visually impaired developmentally delayed child who is also physically challanged. These are all PC words hiding the truth to make everyone feel better. The reality is my child is blind as a bat, he is mentally retarded and back in my parents day he would have been called crippled. I used the word retarded in his therapist office and was almost attacked by a women. <br /><br />I only use this as an example how in a few short years we have been shaped by the PC crowd and the truth is being distorted. When I was a kid in 1970s people could laugh and make jokes about people of colors, conditions and backgrounds. Now that is called hate. People need to go to sensitivity training. All this sounds way too big brother for me and a little like the Nazis or the communist party from Russia or China.<br /><br />I thought America is home of the free, but no longer except as long as it is sanitized PC thoguht. I love my kid with all my heart and his condition no matter how the PC world dresses it up does not change the fact that he is a blind crippled retard. My kid is who the he is and I love being his dad.<br /><br />I do not hate anybody;most people I know I like. I don't know anybody on this board therefore I can not really hate them. What I do hate is this. I hate the left trying to marginalize my faith and my beliefs. I hate being told that if I disagree with homosexuality, The Dixie Chicks or what ever then I am the one being intolerant. I hate the enitre PC mind control crap the media and Hollywood is craming down my throat. I hate the fact the truth is being shoved aside in our society. <br /><br />I hate the fact that an African Government came to the international AIDS conferecne and said the way they curtailed AIDS was to instill an abstinence and monogamy into their culture and it worked to greatly reduce AIDS and the world laughed at it, they laughed at the truth. <br /><br />It is their version of a secular morality that is being forced upon us. Humanism and secular beliefs have their own morals and values which are counter to most of the world's religions. Is it not the left who is supposed to embrace all beliefs and everyones ideas. They only embrace the ideas that they agree with and everyone else is intolerant. So who really preaches hate and intolerance??? The left. You wanna be gay and do wierd things with gerbils or multiple partners, knock your self out, but keep your immoral secular lies out of my family and out of my church. <br /><br />If gay people get the "right" to marry, then the polygymist will the get the constitutional right because why should we define marriage by a number or who I can marry? Legally, I should be allowed to marry any adult I want, including my sister, my dad or my mom. Everyone is consenting and the constitution gaurentees my right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. I will use the same equal protection clause in the constitution that is being used for gay marriage in a non-value non-moral world.

 

[wajajaja]

Re: I'm comming out..

I don't understand why we are so engaged in what gays do with regard to marrage when we seem to pay little service to the "issue of child bearing and maybe we'll get married someday." <br /> the laws were structured to protect women and children against adbandoment. It protects society against discarded children, it provide for thier security through inheritance and designate responsobility. <br /> now its seems popular to have a child and the liberated women doesnt demand these things. the courts uphold this thinking by grantting visitations to boyfriends. <br /> i can go on , but i will solicit the judgement of the forum to help me under stand. <br /> this is to me a much more threatening issue than respect for gay life parners and surely is entrenched morrally as well.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: I'm comming out..

Wilkin, you keep saying, "Should be normal"?<br /><br />Why "should" homosexual behavior be normal?<br /><br />........wait, don't answer that, i'll answer it for you,..........It should NEVER be considered normal!<br /><br />Biologically, physically, morally, and religiously, Homosexual behavior is not considered "Normal". Now there may be "laws" that allow this sort of activity, but that still doesn't make it "Normal" behavior.<br /><br />You are one screwed up individual if you seek out the same sex for an intimate relationship. <br />..........Even animals are smarter than that.<br /><br />BTW, as I said before, I can rationalize my disapproval of homosexual behavior, therefore, I am not irrational. <br /><br />Apparently I am Homophobe also, and I am proud of <br />it.<br /><br />.....I'm done here.<br /><br />Have a fine day.